MoP Beta : Prot Warriors, Strengths vs Weaknesses

[bigbad]

And again this is the only reason, they have removed the 30 sec CD. Could you imaging a DK with a 30 sec cooldown on his Death Strike ? :/
Same here. Since Shield Block is our new ''Death Strike'', we can't afford to have a cool down on it anymore. It needs to be usable at any given time.

I'm glad you see that you can't compare deathstrike with shieldblock. I can imagine a DK with 30-60 sec cd on bone shield, see what i did there

Just because shieldblock is getting the active tanking flavor deathstrike has doesn't mean it's the same.

[Nobleshield]

I wouldn't mind a minor CD like Pally's Divine Protection. I've always thought that we could be more viable with that and our lack of cooldowns is one of the major reasons, especially in T13, why we are a little less survivable on some fights than other tanks.

I still maintain that Pallys ought to be kind of like us in reverse with more healing effects - Pallys buff themselves and we debuff our enemies. So like Warriors get Devastate/Sunder, Pally might get a spammable attack that increases their own armor. Pallys could get a quick and frequent self heal (WoG?), Warriors get more defensive abilities to reduce our damage. So the difference is that a Paladin would get hit slightly harder but could heal themselves easier from it while Warriors would get hit for less due to more defensive abilities. After all we are supposed to be the "juggernaut" tank, the lone guy standing firm against the dragon or the rampaging army. We need more abilities that convey that, with names like "Iron Vanguard" or "Steel Bulwark" that indicate we are masters of arms and use our own skill and training where other tanks rely on magic or mystical effects.

[Seolla]

Wait wait, so if you have the exact same amount of cool down as every other tanks, then what are you giving up for having the best mobility, and having the only raid DPS CD as a tank?

Is it really that unbalanced that Pally/DK gets 1 or 2 extra minor CD for having literally no mobility?

You can't just compare one single aspect of a class (# of CD's) when talking about balance; have to look at the bigger picture; and as of now, no body knows how it will actually work out.

[bahamuto]

Wait wait, so if you have the exact same amount of cool down as every other tanks, then what are you giving up for having the best mobility, and having the only raid DPS CD as a tank?

Is it really that unbalanced that Pally/DK gets 1 or 2 extra minor CD for having literally no mobility?

You can't just compare one single aspect of a class (# of CD's) when talking about balance; have to look at the bigger picture; and as of now, no body knows how it will actually work out.

I don't know how it will work in MoP , however currently we have Charge, Intercept, Intervene , and Heroic Leap ... I'd gladly give up 2 of those for 2 Damage Reduction Cooldowns.

[Odina]

Wait wait, so if you have the exact same amount of cool down as every other tanks, then what are you giving up for having the best mobility, and having the only raid DPS CD as a tank?

Wait wait...how is being a pinball going to help vs a big ass dmg inc?

You are comparing apples to oranges here. One is a role responsibility and the other is class flavor. All tanks should have equal footing on the role they perform (surviving) each class should have some flavor to it that makes it different... but that should not hinder there ability to be on par to perform there role!

What you are saying is akin to stating mages should have less DPS cd's than other casters because they can blink out of bad shit faster than other dps classes can!

[meathead]

I don't know how it will work in MoP , however currently we have Charge, Intercept, Intervene , and Heroic Leap ... I'd gladly give up 2 of those for 2 Damage Reduction Cooldowns.

intercept is gone come mop and we have to pick up safe guard if we want it.

[Deleted]

I'm glad you see that you can't compare deathstrike with shieldblock. I can imagine a DK with 30-60 sec cd on bone shield, see what i did there

Just because shieldblock is getting the active tanking flavor deathstrike has doesn't mean it's the same.

What you're saying doesn't even make sense. Read again what I've wrote on the first page, perhaps you'll understand better. I don't think I can be any more clear.

[Kebren]

I've always felt that Last Stand is a rather lackluster cooldown and needs some sort of secondary effect. I consider it the equivalent to the Paladin's Ardent Defender which has a 20% DR and a cheat death effect. Adding a secondary effect to Last Stand like allowing the use of Victory Rush during its duration would help a bit in the healing department.

I also think that the mobility niche is a pretty bad one to have. It's amazing on a handful of fights, but for the rest of the fights you stand in place and waste the mobility. It would be like Death Strike only working on a few bosses in a given teir. Giving Warriors a defensive ability that shares it cooldown with Heroic Leap or Charge would let warriors make the decision between being defensive or mobile.

[Deleted]

**FAQ section added in the original post, to discuss some important points brought up in the comments.**

---------- Post added 2012-03-31 at 12:49 AM ----------

Pallys could get a quick and frequent self heal (WoG?), Warriors get more defensive abilities to reduce our damage. So the difference is that a Paladin would get hit slightly harder but could heal themselves easier from it while Warriors would get hit for less due to more defensive abilities. After all we are supposed to be the "juggernaut" tank, the lone guy standing firm against the dragon or the rampaging army. We need more abilities that convey that, with names like "Iron Vanguard" or "Steel Bulwark" that indicate we are masters of arms and use our own skill and training where other tanks rely on magic or mystical effects.

100% agreed on this.
When did you become so wise Arothand, ; )

[Ashenia]

If I'm correct and Protection can't use Die by the Sword, then this is what they need to do (remove parry, -1min cd) and honestly I'm happy about it even if others can have passive magic resist or 6 cooldowns (look at the bright side, they spam cooldowns to survive, you take it like a man).

[Deleted]

Ghostcrawler's thoughts on some of the Prot Warrior's issues, posted just 30 minutes ago !

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...1713?page=2#27

He is basically saying, ''Yes, there's an issue here, especially with Prot DPS''.
He however doesn't talk that much about Warrior survivability, he simply mentions it from time to time. Could someone be kind enough as to ask him about it ? Why not introduce some extra Defensive abilities, or if he does think Warriors are really on the same level cooldown-wise when compared to other tanks ? It'll be great, as I can't post on the WoW US forums...

[Ashenia]

Would be nice if someone force them to just change Die by the Sword for "Warrior 20% 1min cd", all specs. I wouldnt be complaining at all after that, even knowing others got alot more cd to use.

Being a Warrior > Being a easy class.

[Deleted]

Well yeah, it would be a pretty nice start, ; )

I've tried understanding what could justify denying us this extra cool down, but I guess it's pointless as there isn't any.
We don't have greater passive mitigation, we don't have more healing abilities or effects, we sure don't have more defensive cool downs, and we don't have more DPS... so what exactly ?

---------- Post added 2012-03-31 at 11:59 PM ----------

Someone even asked me on the WoW forums, if it was a ''bug'' that only Prot Warriors didn't have DbtS, while Arms and Fury had it.
I laughed, but he wasn't even joking, he was pretty damn serious as he simply couldn't understand why.
I for sure couldn't answer that one.

[Ashenia]

If you look briefly thru all new abilities/talents and how many threads on Warrior forum (at least EU) was about PvP then maybe this is what happened here?

- Dragon Roar, useless on boss
- Staggering Shout, useless on boss
- Disturbing Shout, well useless still as you can interrupt normally -.-
- Heroic throw, no threat gen
- Die by the Sword, for DPS only
- Shockwave, gone from baseline
- Vigilance, 2min cooldown for 12sec if I get it right?

Most of this abilities are nice for PvP, what we Protection Warriors gets from MoP? Spell Shield for 60rage, without Shield Block on, booya! And as a last one (atm) Impending Victory heal. For Avatar/Shockwave/Stormbolt I need to sacrifice something, same with Regen. Others got new nice abilities to safe their asses, revamped old ones. Prolly we gonna be again least wanted tanks in MoP if it goes like that, of course we can do same shit but will be way harder.

Ofc I might get all this wrongly, but resuming all of this we need:
- DbtS for all specs
- Regen in baseline for all specs
- Some new talents that are not our old abilities (Stormbolt - CB, Shockwave, Regen, BS, DCalm etc..)

[Seolla]

Wait wait...how is being a pinball going to help vs a big ass dmg inc?

You are comparing apples to oranges here. One is a role responsibility and the other is class flavor. All tanks should have equal footing on the role they perform (surviving) each class should have some flavor to it that makes it different... but that should not hinder there ability to be on par to perform there role!

What you are saying is akin to stating mages should have less DPS cd's than other casters because they can blink out of bad shit faster than other dps classes can!

Mobility is the basis for 90% of encounter designs, and it is also one of the most important tank role to be able to get to adds quickly to pick them up. There are definitely at least one or more encounters in every tier where mobility would play a big role (hello Nef, Throne of the wind, Shannox, Spine). Yes, those encounters are not impossible without that mobility, but the same can be said about having an extra 1-2 minor CD's; it would help a lot.

And yes, it's comparing Apple and Orange, but when it comes to raid, you're not choosing between Apple or Orange, you're picking from whole baskets of fruit. If Warrior's have the same amount of CD's as every other tanks, while keeping their mobility and skull banner dps buff, then everyone would pick that basket with Apples AND Oranges as oppose to a basket with just Apples (the other tanks).

edit* as for the Mage comparison, DPS classes are mostly balanced around the buffs they bring. But yes, Mages are overpowered because of their CDs and Burst. See what happens when a class has equal or more capability to do their main role (DPS), but also has this extra bonus (CD's, burst, etc)? The top guilds would stack that one class while brining the minimal of every other class just to get the buffs: Hello Deathwing mage stacking. The only reason every guild doesn't simply bring 10 mages to every encounter is that it will be too hard to gear up, but that wouldn't be a problem for tanks, and therefore, if Warriors has everything the other classes have, on top of the mobility and raid utilities, then there is no reason to bring any other tanks.

[Deleted]

Mobility is the basis for 90% of encounter designs, and it is also one of the most important tank role to be able to get to adds quickly to pick them up. There are definitely at least one or more encounters in every tier where mobility would play a big role (hello Nef, Throne of the wind, Shannox, Spine). Yes, those encounters are not impossible without that mobility, but the same can be said about having an extra 1-2 minor CD's; it would help a lot.

As I said in the FAQ section of the original post, here, there are multiple ways of balancing Warriors Mobility and Survivability.
As you also said here, there isn't that much fight out there where mobility matters. You said it, 1 per Tier more or less. So what, should we only be taking Warriors for 1 out of 10 bosses every Tier, 'cause he's got better mobility but less survivability ?

Mobility is the basis for 90% of encounter designs

What ?? I'm sure I misunderstood something there.

[Bowjobs]

Wait for things to even out before you start saying your class is gimped... im not currently in the beta but ive been reading alot of bad things about all the classes, its beta wait till it gets closer to launch time

[Deleted]

Mobility is the basis for 90% of encounter designs, and it is also one of the most important tank role to be able to get to adds quickly to pick them up. There are definitely at least one or more encounters in every tier where mobility would play a big role (hello Nef, Throne of the wind, Shannox, Spine). Yes, those encounters are not impossible without that mobility, but the same can be said about having an extra 1-2 minor CD's; it would help a lot.

You're even contradicting yourself in fact. 1st you say, mobility is 90% of the basis of encounters, then you go on and say, there's about one encounter per Tier where mobility is an issue for the tank. Which one is it ?

---------- Post added 2012-04-02 at 04:14 AM ----------

Wait for things to even out before you start saying your class is gimped... im not currently in the beta but ive been reading alot of bad things about all the classes, its beta wait till it gets closer to launch time

It's exactly because it's Beta that we should speak up. The whole point of this thread is to make people realize what should be changed, ''before'' it's too late when MoP goes live.

[Seolla]

As I said in the FAQ section of the original post, here, there are multiple ways of balancing Warriors Mobility and Survivability.
As you also said here, there isn't that much fight out there where mobility matters. You said it, 1 per Tier more or less. So what, should we only be taking Warriors for 1 out of 10 bosses every Tier, 'cause he's got better mobility but less survivability ?

But we are comparing mobility to that 1-2 extra minor CD, not comparing to survivability in general. So the same can be said, there are also maybe ~1-2 encounters per tier that the extra minor CD or self-heal would of helped. And 1-2 encounters per tier is actually a lot, considering 7-8 bosses per tier seems to be the norm now (outside of the first tier of expansion)

And yes, let's ignore the extra raid DPS from skull banner shall we? Cuz both you and I know, if that thing stays the way it is in MoP, EVERY GUILD would be using Prot Warriors, considering how important DPS (especially burst DPS) is for so many of the fights.

Basically, what I'm saying here, is that I don't see any decent guild picking other tanks over a Warrior just because they are missing 1-2 minor CD's, but I do see top guilds picking Warrior over other tanks for their mobility and raid CD's.

What ?? I'm sure I misunderstood something there.

Mobility is the basis for 90% of the encounters, as in "moving out of stuff" and "not standing in stuff" is the what most encounter design are based around. Hence mobility helps. Yes it's not required and it's something small, but so is having 1-2 extra minor CD's.

And I wasn't contradicting myself when I said 1-2 encounters per tier requires that mobility. I'm saying mobility is useful for most encounters, and is godly for 1-2 per tier.

---------- Post added 2012-04-01 at 11:22 PM ----------

Also, in your opening post, you're suggesting a way to balance survivability and mobility is to make the Warrior pick one or the other. But given how talents and respecs work in MoP, it still wouldn't be balanced. Because then Warriors would have the OPTION to switch between the two, while the other tanks don't.

So unless they give Paladins for example, an option to give up their minor CD like Divine Prot, in exchange for a Charge or Heroic Leep, or DK's give up their Bone Shield for an intervene or something, then I don't see how that solves the problem. Warriors would be able to be on equal footing in terms of CD's with the other tanks when they want, but also have the options to have mobility when they want. Their basket of fruit is still better.

[Deleted]

edit* as for the Mage comparison, DPS classes are mostly balanced around the buffs they bring. But yes, Mages are overpowered because of their CDs and Burst. See what happens when a class has equal or more capability to do their main role (DPS), but also has this extra bonus (CD's, burst, etc)? The top guilds would stack that one class while brining the minimal of every other class just to get the buffs: Hello Deathwing mage stacking. The only reason every guild doesn't simply bring 10 mages to every encounter is that it will be too hard to gear up, but that wouldn't be a problem for tanks, and therefore, if Warriors has everything the other classes have, on top of the mobility and raid utilities, then there is no reason to bring any other tanks.

Sorry if I get a little bit flamed by this but it is nonsense.
Why are you even comparing Warriors to Mages ?
First Warrior's mobility doesn't even come close to making up for the less survival and healing abilities he has, because there simply aren't enough fights where mobility is even a factor to make that happen.
1 in the whole DS raid (1/8 bosses) ; 1 in the whole FL raid ( (1/7 bosses) ; 2 bosses in T11 (2/12).
So basically you're saying Warrior is ok for 4/27 bosses in Cataclysm for example, thanks to his greater mobility, and that is ok ? What do we do on the other 23 bosses then ? Where we are always lacking something when compared to the others tanks ?

Second Warriors have nothing to with Mages, so I don't see why you're even comparing them as if Prot Warriors were ''OP'' in any way right now in MoP Beta. Don't say things like that. This comparison is a mistake, IMO.

Again sorry for being so direct, but what you're saying is a bit too misleading.