[MoP] Misc Demonology Notes

[darthades]

I don't understand your arguments at all. Simply saying it's better isn't a valid reason for a change to be made... No one would argue that a 2 second cast time isn't shorter than a 2.5 second one. How is HoG not a snare exactly?

Really?

- every PvP viable spec needs to have consistent pressure

- 2.5 seconds cast on shadowbolt IS frustrating as hell in PvP:
the enemy can LOS more easily
interrupts become a bigger threat
target can get away from range too easily

demo snare is weak!! weaker than any other PvP snare, it last only 6 seconds, altough it has 3 charges and can be stacked, it last too little, its recharge time is 15 seconds, PvP specs have stronger snares, spammable, baked into their nukes, roots, plus much more mobility.

The spec doesnt even have burst to justify the long cast time.

Put all those factors together and it doesnt take a genius to realize it is "extremely" frustrating as a main nuke in PvP, almost crippling.

[CDShaidar]

Really?

- every PvP viable spec needs to have consistent pressure

- 2.5 seconds cast on shadowbolt IS frustrating as hell in PvP:
the enemy can LOS more easily
interrupts become a bigger threat
target can get away from range too easily

demo snare is weak!! weaker than any other PvP snare, it last only 6 seconds, altough it has 3 charges and can be stacked, it last too little, its recharge time is 15 seconds, PvP specs have stronger snares, spammable, baked into their nukes, roots, plus much more mobility.

The spec doesnt even have burst to justify the long cast time.

Put all those factors together and it doesnt take a genius to realize it is "extremely" frustrating as a main nuke in PvP, almost crippling.

And it is balanced by having a powerful GCD capped 40 yrd spammable nuke while in meta... if a period of relatively weak caster play followed by powerful meta play isn't your style, then Demo just isn't the spec for you in PvP or PvE... All those factors put together? It also doesn't take a genius to realize that a 2.5 second cast is only 25% longer than a 2 second one and the grand issues you seem to be alluding to aren't as big of a swing as you'd like to believe.

[darthades]

And it is balanced by having a powerful GCD capped 40 yrd spammable nuke while in meta... if a period of relatively weak caster play followed by powerful meta play isn't your style, then Demo just isn't the spec for you in PvP or PvE... All those factors put together? It also doesn't take a genius to realize that a 2.5 second cast is only 25% longer than a 2 second one and the grand issues you seem to be alluding to aren't as big of a swing as you'd like to believe.

25% slower cast time in PvP for a weak """MAIN NUKE""" is a "MASSIVE" negative factor on PvP viability, that part is not an opinion, it is a fact in the PvP world, dont believe me? just ask any pvper you know. It "IS" a big deal in the grant scheme of things.

It wouldnt be a big deal if we had mage or hunter CC/avoidance/mobility, or if the spell was a cooldown, or if the spell was situational, but thats not the case, it is the main source of dps on an tank pvp class.

[CDShaidar]

25% slower cast time in PvP for a weak """MAIN NUKE""" is a "MASSIVE" negative factor on PvP viability, that part is not an opinion, it is a fact in the PvP world, dont believe me? just ask any pvper you know. It "IS" a big deal in the grant scheme of things.

Yet you're comfortable saying that 2 seconds is the perfectly balanced number? That's a lot of confidence in your ability to judge balance on something so MASSIVE. Why not 1.75s or 2.2s or millions of other possible cast times? No one's arguing that shorter isn't better for all those things you listed, the argument is that it's balanced as is and likely doesn't need tuning to suit your idea of balance.

[Jessicka]

25% slower cast time in PvP for a weak """MAIN NUKE""" is a "MASSIVE" negative factor on PvP viability, that part is not an opinion, it is a fact in the PvP world, dont believe me? just ask any pvper you know. It "IS" a big deal in the grant scheme of things.

It wouldnt be a big deal if we had mage or hunter CC/avoidance/mobility, or if the spell was a cooldown, or if the spell was situational, but thats not the case, it is the main source of dps on an tank pvp class.

If it's "better" your way, and "balanced" how it is, then by your own argument it becomes unbalanced... :3

[Inactivity]

25% slower cast time in PvP for a weak """MAIN NUKE""" is a "MASSIVE" negative factor on PvP viability, that part is not an opinion, it is a fact in the PvP world, dont believe me? just ask any pvper you know. It "IS" a big deal in the grant scheme of things.

It wouldnt be a big deal if we had mage or hunter CC/avoidance/mobility, or if the spell was a cooldown, or if the spell was situational, but thats not the case, it is the main source of dps on an tank pvp class.

You can't reliably hard cast anything over 1.0-1.5 seconds in PvP. And keep in mind, the ~1.5 seconds maximum limit to reliably hard-cast is *with* the 30% cast slow-time debuff.

Again, if it's a major cooldown or situational ability (Pyroblast hard-cast, for instance), that's not *as* big a deal. But anything you need to use often, and you're just not going to use it at all. Even frost mages have trouble getting off Frostbolt on a 1.3 second cast, they need to already have a lot of initial pressure before they can try to hardcast.

[Jessicka]

To answer some questions:
-Touch of Chaos, the autoattack is still there. Corruption's damage is not updated by Meta when refreshed in Meta either by the Autoattack or the active ability formerly known as Demonic Slash.
- Hellfire can be channelled while moving.
- Wave of Chaos applies it's own slow, not the Shadowflame DoT.
- Shadowflame's duration can't be extended beyond 6 seconds, but if you clip the first in the last second, you get a full 6 seconds at 2 stacks
- Void Ray isn't targetted, it's just the same as it was before.

[Micke]

To answer some questions:
-Touch of Chaos, the autoattack is still there. Corruption's damage is not updated by Meta when refreshed in Meta either by the Autoattack or the active ability formerly known as Demonic Slash.
- Shadowflame's duration can't be extended beyond 6 seconds, but if you clip the first in the last second, you get a full 6 seconds at 2 stacks

It is possible the autoattack is slated for later removal, we'll see.
I'm not really fond of that HoG gameplay for max damage, especially considering it has a flight time.

Oh and carrion swarm was available to me on my lvl 85 warlock (was 86 req)

[Groph]

One of the main problems in pvp that has stopped nuke based specs from doing well in pvp is long cast times, 2.5 second cast time on sbolt for a spec without roots and novas is just to long, what makes it even worse is that after winding it up it just doesnt hit hard enough, exact same problem demo has now on live, long casts, crap damage outside of meta,rubbish pvp spec.

Also dont argue with jess , she has a thing for cast times, even wanted one on demonic slash(touch of chaos) which would of removed any chance for a demo pvp spec in MoP unless they gave it rooting effects.

[Phoenexis]

The thing with Shadowbolt is that it's not that much of a MAIN NUKE, it's a filler. It's what you use when you have nothing else, and it certainly won't be the tide turner of a PvP battle. Currently as demonology in PvP (that I've sometimes tested), you don't rely that much on Shadowbolt. However, when you enter Metamorphosis and pop all cooldowns, then you can certainly manage to launch a few. You just have to know how to CC properly. And even then, Shadowbolt isn't the main pressure builder, it's Immolate, HoG, Corruption, Immo Aura, BoD and Felstorm.

Also, I doubt Demonology wouldn't have been viable for PvP if Slash had a cast time. Actually I think one is necessary. The disparity between caster and demon form is too great in PvP. Sure you want to feel epic while in demon form, but you don't want the whole match revolving around it. Some mobility definitely needs to be put in caster Form, and I think Demonic Leap would be ideal.
And the way it is right now I think meta offers lots of bursty pressure: Unavoidable nuke, enfeebling and undispellable auras, resistance to CC, high defense and great mobility.

[Sedryn]

Well, at the very least, a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde approach to PvP would be new and interesting, although it could come down to kill the warlock before he gets Meta. But then there is DA, so meh, I don't know. The disparity between Meta and caster might be fun and exciting, or it could completely suck. I guess we'll find out.

[n0n3]

Affliction is far superior to this spec atm, u do more dps as affliction(30k compared to 50k+ on dummy), u got the burst(soulburn soul swap,haunt then MG), fast cast times, also most of the times u'll have more than one target in both bosses encounters and pvp so multi dotting will win all the time, atm destro or demo are not even close to what u can do with affliction.
Nerf shadow priests they do 80k dps on dummies atm.

[Zinnin]

Affliction is far superior to this spec atm, u do more dps as affliction(30k compared to 50k+ on dummy), u got the burst(soulburn soul swap,haunt then MG), fast cast times, also most of the times u'll have more than one target in both bosses encounters and pvp so multi dotting will win all the time, atm destro or demo are not even close to what u can do with affliction.
Nerf shadow priests they do 80k dps on dummies atm.

While demo might have some issues (I am not sure it does yet) before it can be considered a viable pvp spec, what you listed is as far from the truth as possible.

On a dummy demo's dps is very similar to afflictions, from my testing it normally is slightly higher. Affliction makes up for this at the end by having a far superior execute, however drain soul execute rarely comes into play in PvP anyways.

As for as SB SW, Haunt, MG being burst...it isn't, not like chaos bolt or meta. With Haunt \ MG you basically are cycling between 90% average dps and 110% average dps, but there is no phase in affliction where you are suddenly doing 200% average dps. With meta you get that kind of burst. Don't confuse low ramp up times with burst.

As far as multidotting, currently Demo actually sims out higher, however in pvp it doesn't have the dispel protection that UA offers. We will have to see how the new dispel cooldowns actually feel in pvp though, it might not end up being as big of deal to not have dispel protection as it is on live.

And then you go into mobility wise, demo has insane mobility Fel Flame is nearly the same dps as shadow bolt, and generates nearly identicle fury per cast time. The only downside to it is increase mana usage. Plus the fact that demonic slash \ touch of chaos being instant makes us very difficult to lock down when we are in 'burst mode'. Where as affliction if you aren't channeling either DS \ or MG you are losing a very solid amount of damage, which makes you locked into taking Kil'jaeden's cunning which throws away a decent amount of passive damage from AV.

[n0n3]

Burst with chaos bolt or meta, u make me laugh, you need 1 min to prepare those...

[Zinnin]

You don't need to be able to use them instantly for them to be considered burst, again you are confusing ramp up time with burst. They are not the same thing.

[darthades]

While demo might have some issues (I am not sure it does yet) before it can be considered a viable pvp spec, what you listed is as far from the truth as possible.

On a dummy demo's dps is very similar to afflictions, from my testing it normally is slightly higher. Affliction makes up for this at the end by having a far superior execute, however drain soul execute rarely comes into play in PvP anyways.

As for as SB SW, Haunt, MG being burst...it isn't, not like chaos bolt or meta. With Haunt \ MG you basically are cycling between 90% average dps and 110% average dps, but there is no phase in affliction where you are suddenly doing 200% average dps. With meta you get that kind of burst. Don't confuse low ramp up times with burst.

As far as multidotting, currently Demo actually sims out higher, however in pvp it doesn't have the dispel protection that UA offers. We will have to see how the new dispel cooldowns actually feel in pvp though, it might not end up being as big of deal to not have dispel protection as it is on live.

And then you go into mobility wise, demo has insane mobility Fel Flame is nearly the same dps as shadow bolt, and generates nearly identicle fury per cast time. The only downside to it is increase mana usage. Plus the fact that demonic slash \ touch of chaos being instant makes us very difficult to lock down when we are in 'burst mode'. Where as affliction if you aren't channeling either DS \ or MG you are losing a very solid amount of damage, which makes you locked into taking Kil'jaeden's cunning which throws away a decent amount of passive damage from AV.

While i agree with all your points about affliction and burst, i think you have it completely wrong with demo.

Felflame "did" have similar dpct with sb, but it was nerfed, now the damage and mana difference is significant.

Meta, is not burst, it is "high consistent pressure", it is the same with my DK popping UF + garg + dark transformation, this kind of burst has lower value than FrostMages, Rogues, etc and all other real burst PvP classes.

This high consistent pressure can be easily countered in PvP.

If meta had to cast to do damage, then the spec will be officially useless as right now, you pop your stuff and the oponents has so many easy accessible ways to counter it, that it is the same as you having no cooldowns at all, all this while being useless in caster form.

We really dont have to wait how the dispel will work, it is going to be the same for all classes, except moonkins and ele shamans, which can recast their dots instantle quickly without any real drawback, cast time or doom resource cost.

Both Affliction and Destruction are sooo superior in rated PvP settings, it feels like cataclysm all over again, yes DEMO got better, a lot better, but still far behind.

Made up numbers on spec/rated-pvp viability:

Demo Cata: 1/10 ... MOP: 6/10 (was worst rated-pvp spec in the game)
Aff Cata: 8/10 ... MOP: 9/10
Destro Cata:7/10 ... MOP: 7/10 (dispels were/are destros only drawback)

I do think shadowbolt being 2 seconds will help greatly with the poor rated-pvp demo performance (worst pvp spec in the game by far), it would help GREATLY with its consistent pressure outside cooldowns.

[Zinnin]

Meta, is not burst, it is "high consistent pressure", it is the same with my DK popping UF + garg + dark transformation, this kind of burst has lower value than FrostMages, Rogues, etc and all other real burst PvP classes.

Meta standing by itself might be considered "high consistent pressure", but not when you have cooldowns up. Wild imps normally are about 8k damage x 5 every 2.4 seconds, that by itself is "high consistent pressure" Throw in a trinket proc, on use trinket, Ds, and hell, pet sac just for over kill you are spamming 72k instants (or 170k soul fires if you want to risk casting)...on top of everything else you are doing.

[darthades]

Meta standing by itself might be considered "high consistent pressure", but not when you have cooldowns up. Wild imps normally are about 8k damage x 5 every 2.4 seconds, that by itself is "high consistent pressure" Throw in a trinket proc, on use trinket, Ds, and hell, pet sac just for over kill you are spamming 72k instants...on top of everything else you are doing.

That is still high consistent pressure.

With my DK, garg + red trinket + DT + UF is the same.

You do your high damage over at least 20 seconds, thats how you draw the line.

mages, rogues, hunters, warriors, frost DKs, pallies, cats can do theirs in 3-6 seconds.

Thats why unholy DKs were never considered a high burst spec.

[n0n3]

Pvp is so fast that u dont have time to prepare that burst anyway, i think that being able to put all 3 dots instantly and then hasten them with MG is far superior to whatever demo or destro can offer atm, i looked over streams, logs from raid beta testing and 99% of top warlocks were playing affliction.
I also played all 3 specs on beta, while leveling, on raids, 5 mans, dummies and demo was the least enjoyable spec for me mainly because of the slow cast times, by the time i finish casting a shadow bolt my hair goes gray.

[darthades]

Pvp is so fast that u dont have time to prepare that burst anyway, i think that being able to put all 3 dots instantly and then hasten them with MG is far superior to whatever demo or destro can offer atm, i looked over streams, logs from raid beta testing and 99% of top warlocks were playing affliction.
I also played all 3 specs on beta, while leveling, on raids, 5 mans, dummies and demo was the least enjoyable spec for me mainly because of the slow cast times, by the time i finish casting a shadow bolt my hair goes gray.

Yea i noticed too, especially on the forums, close to nil feedback about demo and pages on pages of aff, destro.

People just wont play demonology neither in PvP nor PvE, not even with the buffs.

At least for me, 2.5 seconds on its main nuke feels really really painful, it almosts kills all the good points.