Emancipate

[minteK917]

I'd be happy if they reduce the mana cost. I think 15% would be reasonable considering we wont have the glyph of cleansing mana reduction glyph and we wont have hammer of wrath mana cost removal one either (if anyone took that).

Hammer of wrath cost was reduced. We regen the mana to cast hammer of wrath twice every 2 second passively on beta. As i said, im not holding my breath for them to reduce the mana cost. People that arent part of beta keep thinking about our mana regen in the way Cata regen is. We arent working with mana like that anymore. It means we are capped at spamming it more then 4 times in row, it does not mean that snaring the paladin 4 times will stop him from having the mana to dps as soon as he meet his target, its just not the case.

[Riptide]

You regen mana for 2 offensive ability at the near speed of a single GCD. If you hit 0 mana, in 2 sec you have the mana to use anything thats not FOL or Emancipate. So no, you wont need to stay on him any longer then if emancipate cost nothing. They are capping FOL and Cleanse/Emancipate mana cost. Nothing else. Mana are not dps ressource for ret in MoP Beta. Your mana bar regen faster then you can spend it dpsing only.

I haven't played beta so I wasn't sure, I was basing it on what I know now which is all I can do. However NONE of that changes the main point of my post.

This ability is not one anyone should praise. We should NOT have to use an ability to utilize a talent choice. It's like having to stack cd's for optimal effect but without the reward of added dps. It's not like it buffs our "gap closing" talents it only makes them useful if we have 25% mana and potentially a spare gcd. So as I said it's like the cd scenario without the benefit since it only makes a talent viable, it doesn't enhance it.

TLDR 2 abilities to utilize 1 is dumb with no reward gained.

[Reith]

You regen mana for 2 offensive ability at the near speed of a single GCD. If you hit 0 mana, in 2 sec you have the mana to use anything thats not FOL or Emancipate. So no, you wont need to stay on him any longer then if emancipate cost nothing. They are capping FOL and Cleanse/Emancipate mana cost. Nothing else. Mana are not dps ressource for ret in MoP Beta. Your mana bar regen faster then you can spend it dpsing only.

I guess I need to reiterate it for this page... you could seal twist with Glyph of Cleansing. You cannot seal twist with Emancipate, as it currently stands.

[JayJay09]

as it stands right now, Glyph of Cleansing was better. Seal twisting is not possible with Emancipate.

Why that? I thought Seals are off the gcd and only have a 1,5 cd when switching between various Seals. Thus we should be able to "sealdance" since the gcd caused by Emancipate won't stand in the seal's way.

Or are seals affecting gcd again?

[Reith]

Why that? I thought Seals are off the gcd and only have a 1,5 cd when switching between various Seals. Thus we should be able to "sealdance" since the gcd caused by Emancipate won't stand in the seal's way.

Or are seals affecting gcd again?

Seals cost 16.4% of base mana, so every 14-15 seconds you'd be casting 2 seals, which is 32.8% of base mana. I haven't been able to test the beta yet, but if it's really 6% mana every 2 seconds like Sword of Light says it is, then you could only cast emancipate once every ~25 seconds (maybe longer) to break even when you cast 2 seals every 15 seconds.

EDIT: Actually, we couldn't even maintain a balance of mana if we were only using 2 seals every 15 seconds. The mana regen needs to be a little higher imo. Probably 8% every 2 seconds would be good enough.

[minteK917]

Seals cost 16.4% of base mana, so every 14-15 seconds you'd be casting 2 seals, which is 32.8% of base mana. I haven't been able to test the beta yet, but if it's really 6% mana every 2 seconds like Sword of Light says it is, then you could only cast emancipate once every ~25 seconds (maybe longer) to break even when you cast 2 seals every 15 seconds.

EDIT: Actually, we couldn't even maintain a balance of mana if we were only using 2 seals every 15 seconds. The mana regen needs to be a little higher imo. Probably 8% every 2 seconds would be good enough.

Seal twisting is not something they want you to do anyway. I dont see why you are trying to include seal twisting every 15 seconds. They buffed seal of truth to prevent this, truth is now better even on melee swing then justice. Seal of justice is only good for if you dont want to spec into BoG, to have a cc or a better stun. You will not be regulary changing seal as ret in pvp.

[Reith]

Seal twisting is not something they want you to do anyway. I dont see why you are trying to include seal twisting every 15 seconds. They buffed seal of truth to prevent this, truth is now better even on melee swing then justice. Seal of justice is only good for if you dont want to spec into BoG, to have a cc or a better stun. You will not be regulary changing seal as ret in pvp.

I'm just gonna state that I know way more about MoP Retribution Paladin abilities than you do, clearly. Seal of Truth is not better than Justice on a melee swing. Seal of Justice is 16% and Truth is 14%. Seal twisting allows you to keep Censure up while keeping the higher bonus weapon damage and slow.

I did some calculations and if we're on the target constantly, without any Art of War proc, it'd be approximately 20% mana gained per 20 seconds while we're using DPS abilities. That means even if you don't seal twist, if you use Emancipate, you will lose mana if you use it more than once per 25 seconds. The beta regen doesn't even compare to the live regen.

[minteK917]

I'm just gonna state that I know way more about MoP Retribution Paladin abilities than you do, clearly. Seal of Truth is not better than Justice on a melee swing. Seal of Justice is 16% and Truth is 14%. Seal twisting allows you to keep Censure up while keeping the higher bonus weapon damage and slow.

I did some calculations and if we're on the target constantly, without any Art of War proc, it'd be approximately 20% mana gained per 20 seconds while we're using DPS abilities. That means even if you don't seal twist, if you use Emancipate, you will lose mana if you use it more than once per 25 seconds. The beta regen doesn't even compare to the live regen.

Your mistake is still thinking about seal twisting. Its not intended, even if its still possible, its not suposed to be viable, thats why seal got their mana cost increased. The mana regen is much, much better then live, because every dps ability got their mana cost greatly reduced. You can see that when the number pass go i can predict you either another buff to seal of truth (would be the second time in this beta) or another increase in mana cost of seals (would be the second time too).

How about be on the beta instead of trying to calculate it. Our mana doesent drop under 95% while dpsing, EVER. The only time i go negative in mana is FOL (33% of mana) If i cast 3 and go back to dpsing, My mana is back to 95% in less then a minute. As i said, the thing we need to look is if being able to spam it 4 times is enough to get us out of what we need it for. If we need more fine. This is however not an issue or running out of mana dpsing. There is no way to not have mana to dps as ret, EVER.

[Banzubie]

Wasnt the seal of truth glyph changed so it does more weapon damage for less censure damage?

I was under the impression that if you used the glyphed SoT would be better in pvp than justice if you have the slow on judgement talent. Then if you wanted to use either repentance or fist of justice you would drop the glyph and use justice.

[Reith]

Your mistake is still thinking about seal twisting. Its not intended, even if its still possible, its not suposed to be viable, thats why seal got their mana cost increased. The mana regen is much, much better then live, because every dps ability got their mana cost greatly reduced. You can see that when the number pass go i can predict you either another buff to seal of truth (would be the second time in this beta) or another increase in mana cost of seals (would be the second time too).

How about be on the beta instead of trying to calculate it. Our mana doesent drop under 95% while dpsing, EVER. The only time i go negative in mana is FOL (33% of mana) If i cast 3 and go back to dpsing, My mana is back to 95% in less then a minute. As i said, the thing we need to look is if being able to spam it 4 times is enough to get us out of what we need it for. If we need more fine. This is however not an issue or running out of mana dpsing. There is no way to not have mana to dps as ret, EVER.

You completely missed the point, and I think I'm starting to see a trend of you missing points and blabbing on about stuff that's already established. I already stated you'll gain an excess 16-20% base mana every 20 seconds while using DPS abilities. That's not the problem. The problem is Emancipate costing 25% base mana and not being able to use it more than 6 times in the first minute before you're unable to cast it for 15 more seconds and then every 25 seconds from then on. That's completely unacceptable.

[ruiizu]

You completely missed the point, and I think I'm starting to see a trend of you missing points and blabbing on about stuff that's already established. I already stated you'll gain an excess 16-20% base mana every 20 seconds while using DPS abilities. That's not the problem. The problem is Emancipate costing 25% base mana and not being able to use it more than 6 times in the first minute before you're unable to cast it for 15 more seconds and then every 25 seconds from then on. That's completely unacceptable.

Actually what we really need is for Haste to increase resource regeneration, just like every other class. Energy, Rage, Mana---all these classes seem to get resources back quicker with haste now.

[Vongimi]

Its highly unlikely that it will remain at 25% mana guys... remember its beta. They likely converted it from another ability and just didn't change the ability cost yet.

[Sforza]

You will never ever seal twist if this goes live, specing into BoG will be mandatory for almost every ret pvp spec and with it, u will pretty much take off SoJ from all your bars forever.

[herpecin]

Base mana ~= total mana for Ret/Prot.

in MoP, base mana = total mana.

[ruiizu]

Just tested in game, 4 Emancipates and then you can't cast one for a while---however, by the 4th one you still have 4000~ mana from regen, enough to perform any single attack you have.

Also, Emancipate's current effect is follows: removes 5000 from the paladin's mana. Currently does not remove any movement impairs. lol

[Riptide]

All of you guys babbling on about how emancipate works need to realize it's a shit spell and worse mechanic. It's a band-aid to a much bigger issue. Having to use abilities to use gap closing abilities, isn't better mobility. We need better mobility.

Also, I seal twist now if I have the gcd for it and the situation warrants it. I would be dumb not to do it in MoP with it not being on the GCD. You can completely forget about this abilities pve application as our mobility is fine in pve. So how about you stop pretending this ability will help. Sure, I'd like to be able to cleanse myself of snares, but I would give that up instantly for better (read reliable) mobility.

Btw, have you played a mage? Because I have since vanilla and I can tell you how little I have to try to make life hell for Ret paladins/Enh shamans(more so ret). It takes no effort to snare a paladin every gcd(with icy veins) while still doing ok dmg and they are doing 0 dmg.

TLDR- There will be more snares than we can remove and need better mobility.

[Vuagnon]

Giving the Ret an instant gap closer would be a much better solution. The idea of continuously trying to remove snares off of yourself to reach your target sucks big time. I can't understand why both Ret and Enhancement suffer the same miserable fate of not having a reliable gap closing mechanic like any other melee spec in this bloody game, despite the disappearance of hybridism a long time ago. Hand of Freedom is already a snare removing mechanic, why implement a much weaker version of it? It's retarded to even discuss whether you will go oom or not trying to use this spell, the mechanic just sucks. Whoever tells me to roll a warrior or dk if I don't like it can jump from a steep cliff, because every class now has several ways to self heal and provide multiple options for both offensive and defensive utility. It's not like, you have healing spells so you shouldn't have an instant gap closer, so your mobility needs to be weak. A trade of this sort just isn't accurately true.

[Tangra]

Giving the Ret an instant gap closer would be a much better solution. The idea of continuously trying to remove snares off of yourself to reach your target sucks big time. I can't understand why both Ret and Enhancement suffer the same miserable fate of not having a reliable gap closing mechanic like any other melee spec in this bloody game, despite the disappearance of hybridism a long time ago. Hand of Freedom is already a snare removing mechanic, why implement a much weaker version of it? It's retarded to even discuss whether you will go oom or not trying to use this spell, the mechanic just sucks. Whoever tells me to roll a warrior or dk if I don't like it can jump from a steep cliff, because every class now has several ways to self heal and provide multiple options for both offensive and defensive utility. It's not like, you have healing spells so you shouldn't have an instant gap closer, so your mobility needs to be weak. A trade of this sort just isn't accurately true.

Indeed, Acts of Sacrifice was a sloppy band-aid fix to begin with thrown in very late in the cataclysm development process, there is no need to resurrect it as emancipate. Dispelling one snare at a time doesn't work well at all, especially since frost mages, the worst source of snares, usually automatically snare in multiple ways, in other words a frost mage can easily have 2-3 snares on one as part of their normal rotation. In line with all other dispel effects in Pandaria, emancipate should at least remove all snares and be on an 8 sec cooldown. But, as many posters have pointed out, it would probably be better to develop a completely new ability.

[Talen]

Giving the Ret an instant gap closer would be a much better solution. The idea of continuously trying to remove snares off of yourself to reach your target sucks big time. I can't understand why both Ret and Enhancement suffer the same miserable fate of not having a reliable gap closing mechanic like any other melee spec in this bloody game, despite the disappearance of hybridism a long time ago. Hand of Freedom is already a snare removing mechanic, why implement a much weaker version of it? It's retarded to even discuss whether you will go oom or not trying to use this spell, the mechanic just sucks. Whoever tells me to roll a warrior or dk if I don't like it can jump from a steep cliff, because every class now has several ways to self heal and provide multiple options for both offensive and defensive utility. It's not like, you have healing spells so you shouldn't have an instant gap closer, so your mobility needs to be weak. A trade of this sort just isn't accurately true.

Personally - I think the worst thing about the T1 talents is that they provdie what is, or should be, basic baseline functionality. I have no real problesm with the class having poor mobility but that isn't an excuse, I feel, for the class not to have what should be one of the most basic tools a melee class needs.

My opinion is that both SoL and LAotL fill separate holes in the class rotation. PoJ, I think, is a talent that can be removed with little impact. As a baseline version of its current self, or even this version, it may have some value but even then I think the class can do without it. Not saying it doesn't have value, but for what it does....

SoL....I would make baseline. I'd consider moving the CD up to 3 minutes, but this alone would give Rets a nice tool. A sprint as opposed to a charge, but one that works nicely with the anti-snaring tools the class has.

As for LAotL....it fills a different role to SoL. They do complement each other. But if SoL is baseline, that doesn't leave much room for LAotL.

Some ideas:
LAotL becomes baseline. This would probably requires SoLs CD to be increased.
LAotL becomes spec based.

Both these options would require a new T1, but the option of improving a baseline SoL, or affecting other spells old and new - Consecration, Avengers Shield, others - is a definite option. Alternatively, T1, having lost both SoL and PoJ, could becomes dedicated to improving Judgment.

Another option would be to integrate some of the new mechanics into Paladins for a change. BOTH SoL and LAotL are baseline. LAotL provides the current speed boost for 3s as it does in Beta, and SoL is the same sprint...maybe on a longer CD. Using SoL, however, prevents the Paladin benefitting from LAotL for...say, 30s.

EJL

[Valedus]

All of you guys babbling on about how emancipate works need to realize it's a shit spell and worse mechanic. It's a band-aid to a much bigger issue. Having to use abilities to use gap closing abilities, isn't better mobility. We need better mobility.

Also, I seal twist now if I have the gcd for it and the situation warrants it. I would be dumb not to do it in MoP with it not being on the GCD. You can completely forget about this abilities pve application as our mobility is fine in pve. So how about you stop pretending this ability will help. Sure, I'd like to be able to cleanse myself of snares, but I would give that up instantly for better (read reliable) mobility.

Btw, have you played a mage? Because I have since vanilla and I can tell you how little I have to try to make life hell for Ret paladins/Enh shamans(more so ret). It takes no effort to snare a paladin every gcd(with icy veins) while still doing ok dmg and they are doing 0 dmg.

TLDR- There will be more snares than we can remove and need better mobility.

Uh, actually, a lot of snaring is being removed, #1.
#2. What "gap closer" or "mobility" do you even want? I don't want to be a warrior, or a DK. What other gap closers are there than charges, death grips, or sprints?