Westminster use the UK Reserve Fund to pay for £4.1bn cost of upgrading London sewers

[Deleted]

Long title, anyway. Moving onto the point:

Recently, the Westminster government used the UK Reserve Fund to pay for the cost of upgrading the London Sewers, as well as cutting South-East England's water bills by roughly £50 per person. Every Country in the UK pays taxes into the reserve fund. The issue with this; is that UK Reserve Fund is only supposed to be used for projects that 'Benefit the UK as a whole' and normally to pay for this, they would have had to use DEFRA. DEFRA operates similarly to the UK Reserve Fund, but under it, the devolved nations of the UK receive compensation for the use of their nation's tax payers money.

The compensation would come as a percentage under the Barnett Formula; I don't have the figures for Wales and N.I. but Scotland would be compensated some £400m. However, since they used the UK Reserve Fund, the devolved nations are not entitled to any compensation, despite the fact that their tax money, as well as England's, it being used to fund the upgrade to the London sewers and the cut to South-East England's water bills.

The money that Scotland would have received under DEFRA was intended to be put to use for several 'Shovel-ready projects', intended to kick start the Scottish economy and support thousands of jobs across the country.

Quick edit: Wales would have been due £100m, which the Welsh Government states they wished to put to use in strengthening the flood defences around Wales coast.

Nothing on N.I. still.

None the less, what's your opinion on the matter, do you believe the UK government acted fairly and were well within their right to do this?

[Oevaag]

What did you expect dude. It's the Tories. Last time they were in power they kept all the money in London and the south east too. I mean they're even trying to shift the poor out of London with the new benefit caps so they can bring in more rich people to fill all those empty houses that wil come about as a result of the change (with no word of where "the poor" are going to move to I might add).

It's the one thing that makes me consider acually voting in favour of Scottish Independance when the vote comes up. Just so we never need to be ruled by these elitist asshats ever again. There's a reason they only have one seat up here and it's because we actually remember how much they screwed over the north (in general not just us Scot's) the last time.

[Rend Blackhand]

Long title, anyway. Moving onto the point:

Recently, the Westminster government used the UK Reserve Fund to pay for the cost of upgrading the London Sewers, as well as cutting South-East England's water bills by roughly £50 per person. Every Country in the UK pays taxes into the reserve fund. The issue with this; is that UK Reserve Fund is only supposed to be used for projects that 'Benefit the UK as a whole' and normally to pay for this, they would have had to use DEFRA. DEFRA operates similarly to the UK Reserve Fund, but under it, the devolved nations of the UK receive compensation for the use of their nation's tax payers money.

The compensation would come as a percentage under the Barnett Formula; I don't have the figures for Wales and N.I. but Scotland would be compensated some £400m. However, since they used the UK Reserve Fund, the devolved nations are not entitled to any compensation, despite the fact that their tax money, as well as England's, it being used to fund the upgrade to the London sewers and the cut to South-East England's water bills.

The money that Scotland would have received under DEFRA was intended to be put to use for several 'Shovel-ready projects', intended to kick start the Scottish economy and support thousands of jobs across the country.

Quick edit: Wales would have been due £100m, which the Welsh Government states they wished to put to use in strengthening the flood defences around Wales coast.

Nothing on N.I. still.

None the less, what's your opinion on the matter, do you believe the UK government acted fairly and were well within their right to do this?

I'd be surprised if those guys knew anything out of London existed.

[Tokru]

'Benefit the UK as a whole'

Such terms are open to the wildest interpretations and therefor used so often in politics.

For instance you could argue that upgrading London's sewers rises attractiveness of the city and therefore attracts foreign people to move there. Of course it's very far-fetched but I wouldn't be surprised if some politician used it as an excuse.

[Deleted]

Such terms are open to the wildest interpretations and therefor used so often in politics.

For instance you could argue that upgrading London's sewers rises attractiveness of the city and therefore attracts foreign people to move there. Of course it's very far-fetched but I wouldn't be surprised if some politician used it as an excuse.

That's precisely what I suspect was done. Got to love badly written legal documents.

[Maharishi]

Does this have anything to do with the Olympics? If so, I could see the logic chain that would lead to it benefitting the UK as a whole.

[Deleted]

Does this have anything to do with the Olympics? If so, I could see the logic chain that would lead to it benefitting the UK as a whole.

That's perhaps arguable for the sewers upgrade; but you'd be hard put to argue that reducing the South-East of England's water bills by £50 each benefits the UK.

[Maharishi]

That's perhaps arguable for the sewers upgrade; but you'd be hard put to argue that reducing the South-East of England's water bills by £50 each benefits the UK.

Is that a direct government subsidy or just a side effect of the upgrade?

[Deleted]

Is that a direct government subsidy or just a side effect of the upgrade?

Direct subsidy.

...and have sanctioned the release of funds in order to cut the water bills in the South West of England by £50 per household.

[Maharishi]

Direct subsidy.

I don't suppose you have a link to an article on this?

[Deleted]

I don't suppose you have a link to an article on this?

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php...-london-drains

...and have sanctioned the release of funds in order to cut the water bills in the South West of England by £50 per household.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wa...1466-30655971/

Welsh taxpayers will be helping to reduce water bills for residents of the south west of England...

http://www.scottishtimes.com/scottish_news_cameron

...as well as a £50 cut in water bills in the South West of England.

[Margret]

They desperately needed doing, sooner or later, so I don't have a problem with it.

[Maharishi]

Yeah I got nothing. I don't like government subsidies in general (excepting some R&D stuff).

[Deleted]

The Tories only help the rich,their moto is "Take from the poor and give to the rich". I'm not surprised that they did this,they're more useless then Gordon Brown.

[Deleted]

Direct subsidy.

that says south west, not east. so thats not even london :\

but the water bills in South west are so bloody high compared to the rest of the country, people here have been trying to get them lowered or the government to help us out for a long time, the water bills here are getting unaffordable for a lot of people

[Purifier]

The conservative party doing this shouldn't be a surprise really as you get what you vote for, but I guess I can see the reasoning for drains being helpful to the UK as a whole. I'm not too sure about the £50.00 less for water bills, maybe just because of the drought in the south.
Are drought conditions not adequate enough to justify using some of the reserve fund?

I'll wait for a BBC article on this though, just because of the slant of the ones linked and normally there's been a debate by then.

[Deleted]

that says south west, not east. so thats not even london :\

but the water bills in South west are so bloody high compared to the rest of the country, people here have been trying to get them lowered or the government to help us out for a long time, the water bills here are getting unaffordable for a lot of people

No offence; but that still isn't an excuse to claim the expenses from the UK Reserve, which is explicitly stated to only be used for matters that benefit the UK as a whole. The Tories should have gone through the usual route of DEFRA; then you'd have gotten the same results, but with less fuss. However, with them using the Reserve Fund instead of DEFRA; they've effectively gone and nicked around £550 million from the other countries in the UK; as we aren't receiving that compensation we should have got for the use of our taxes to London and the SW's benefit.

The conservative party doing this shouldn't be a surprise really as you get what you vote for, but I guess I can see the reasoning for drains being helpful to the UK as a whole. I'm not too sure about the £50.00 less for water bills, maybe just because of the drought in the south.
I'll wait for a BBC article on this though, just because of the slant of the ones linked and normally there's been a debate by then.

The BBC had an article on it about the week ago. This article is now mysteriously gone; no matter what variation of "Sewers" I type into the BBC news search bar. Also; come on, I linked three completely independent news sources; don't pull the 'Bias' card :/

[Deleted]

The conservative party doing this shouldn't be a surprise really as you get what you vote for, but I guess I can see the reasoning for drains being helpful to the UK as a whole. I'm not too sure about the £50.00 less for water bills, maybe just because of the drought in the south.
I'll wait for a BBC article on this though, just because of the slant of the ones linked and normally there's been a debate by then.

its nothing to do with the drought, the south west accounts for about 30% of UKs coast line, and we have under 5% of the population, but our water bills have to pay for the upkeep of the coast line, and because of that we pay on average 25% more for our water than the rest of the UK, the £50 is greatly needed here.

---------- Post added 2012-04-10 at 04:20 PM ----------

No offence; but that still isn't an excuse to claim the expenses from the UK Reserve, which is explicitly stated to only be used for matters that benefit the UK as a whole. The Tories should have gone through the usual route of DEFRA; then you'd have gotten the same results, but with less fuss. However, with them using the Reserve Fund instead of DEFRA; they've effectively gone and nicked around £550 million from the other countries in the UK; as we aren't receiving that compensation we should have got for the use of our taxes to London and the SW's benefit.

oh i wasn't saying its fair still, but people here won't complain as water here is becoming unaffordable for a lot of families due to us paying so much more than any other place in the country, there was probably a better solution than stealing money from the rest of the country. one of the other ideas put foward was for people in other parts of the country to pay more to help us out. which would have been more unpopular.

[Dhrizzle]

It does make sense for Devon and Cornwall to have a subsidy on their water bills considering they pay way more than the rest of the country. As for the London sewer thing, I'm guessing its for the olympics so it's nice that the people around there get something worthwhile out of the bloody games :-)

From what I can see the Barnett formula would only come in to effect for money spent on England. This is some very specific spendings that benefit the UK as much as it benefits the majority of England (i.e. not much).

[semaphore]

The United Kingdom is a unitary state; governments have always functioned by spending tax money from the entire country on regional projects. Tax money should be allocated on the basis of needs, rather than this mindless fixation on relative population sizes.

I'd be receptive to an argument that the London Sewers and water bills in South West England are less important than whatever the Scottish or Welsh project the money could have gone to (although I don't really see how you'd make that case considering the size of London, and that SW England water bills are supposed to be exceptionally high). But opposing this on the grounds of "this tax money is collected from everywhere" just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It's not like the Barnett formula was exactly fair anyway (since it only covered relative changes and left the starting Scottish advantages alone).

On the other hand, if Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland finds this unacceptable, I believe they should certainly declare independence.

The issue with this; is that UK Reserve Fund is only supposed to be used for projects that 'Benefit the UK as a whole'

Do you have a source for this? I'm not aware of such a fund, and google just gives me this thread.