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  1. #1

    Nerfs Devaluing 4 piece (Shadow)?

    I know this tier is almost over with but I would like some validation on my current assumption that with all of the nerfs (now at 15%) everything dies so fast that you can't get your fiend back up fast enough to make use of your 4 piece as much as you used to. Currently my guild is progressing on HM spine so turning off the buff is out of the question. I used to rank every week on almost every fight with a mastery heavy build but now I'm thinking to just go back to a haste heavy build (except for spine) because all of that mastery is basically going to waste if I cant pop my fiend and Archangel in time, FYI I get DI and have the staff. Just wanted to see if anybody else was thinking the same thing.

  2. #2
    Can you explain your predicament a bit more? My guild is progressing on Heroic Spine as well, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

    Are you saying that because of the decreased health of the tendons that your Shadowfiend isn't up in time to use on each burn phase? If so, I would say that yes, that's a valid concern, but it's going to happen as raid DPS increases too - it's not entirely the fault of the nerfs.

    And, when you say you're going back to a haste-heavy build (EXCEPT for Spine?), I'm confused. When else does the timing of your Shadowfiend matter that much?

  3. #3
    Heavy mastery is, as you said yourself, the way to go on Spine.
    Other fight haste tend to be better than mastery on movement fights if you can reach the 3202 platue. If you can't, going for the seccond VT tick and then go all out mastery is the way to go.

  4. #4
    I was full haste reforged and used "normal" trinkets on our Spine HC kill. I also didn't use cooldowns on Tendon but on Amalgamation. This was with the 5% nerf and Tendon health nerf. If getting Tendons down in two lifts is not an issue for you, I would say go for the second VT tick and then stack mastery or just stack haste. The fight becomes so much easier if you can shorten the fight by killing Amalgamation as soon as possible

  5. #5
    The Patient
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    Everyone responding seems to be focusing on Spine, which is odd, because that's not what you were discussing.

    But to get back to what you were asking, I think that the mastery over haste after 30% is the way to go still. There are certain time frames where it will be less valuable than others, but I think in general, we have to assume that it will work out for the best on most fights. And it would be completely dependent on your specific raids DPS on any given night.

    The one fight I would identify as probably better for a haste build would be HM Warmaster Blackthorn. Others like HM Morchok (if you can DoT both), Yor'sagg are iffy. But in general, I think it's best to stick with the 30% haste then mastery build. Probably through to Mists.
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  6. #6
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Besides, if you were really interested in having a SF/AA CD up for each tendon, you'd be reforging for crit, and that hasn't changed, even with 15%.
    {[( )]}

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    Besides, if you were really interested in having a SF/AA CD up for each tendon, you'd be reforging for crit, and that hasn't changed, even with 15%.
    Why would you do that? For Shadowfiend cooldown? You can get Shadowfiend up in 1.5-2 min if you spam Mind Flay.

  8. #8
    Yes, if you're interested in getting Shadowfiend up in 90 seconds for the 2nd tendon hit each phase, you shouldn't be wasting time casting dots, or even MB on the amalgs.

    For me, I merely cast SW:P on the amalg, and mind flay as much as possible, and I find with at least 16-17% crit (not counting will procs or raid buffs) I usually find I can hit the mark in 25 man. With just over 3202 haste and 23-24% crit raid buffed, you should be ok.
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  9. #9
    The Patient
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    To reiterate, he is not asking a question about HM Spine. He is asking if the 4 piece tier set rotation is becoming less valuable, and thus devaluing mastery in ALL fights EXCEPT spine. Not only is the thread not about HM Spine, it's about all the fights EXCEPT that one.
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  10. #10
    He's basically saying that instead of having the fights last (for example) 5 minutes - where you can use MSp/MB/AA/SF rotation 4 times - the nerfs have reduced fight duration to 4 minutes and you can only make use of the rotation 3 times.

    Nevermind the fact that certain burn phases are no longer lining up with CDs as well.

    To OP: I'm thinking that once the fights get down to say 3:15-3:30 (using the examples above) with further gear/nerfs - the 4p will be much stronger once again due to the higher relative uptime compared to fight duration.
    Last edited by Solia; 2012-04-12 at 04:36 PM.

  11. #11
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Why would you do that? For Shadowfiend cooldown? You can get Shadowfiend up in 1.5-2 min if you spam Mind Flay.
    Even if I spam flay, it's unlikely that I'll get fiend up in 1.5min, which (especially with the 15% debuff) is the time it takes to kill the amalg.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by lwalker8 View Post
    To reiterate, he is not asking a question about HM Spine. He is asking if the 4 piece tier set rotation is becoming less valuable, and thus devaluing mastery in ALL fights EXCEPT spine. Not only is the thread not about HM Spine, it's about all the fights EXCEPT that one.
    Thank you for being the only person that was basically able to read my post

    I was asking (for the 90% of people that replied w/o reading) about mastery being devalued in every fight EXCEPT FOR HM SPINE. My main concern, as petty as it sounds is to top the charts continuously and rank on WOL continuously, especially with the first 6 faceroll HM bosses. Since everything is being nerfed to the ground and dies so much faster it becomes less and less likely to have your AA and Fiend up as many times as you used to and I have definitely seen a decline in my DPS which makes sense if everything is being nuked crazy fast. If you can't have your fiend and AA up as much then Mastery should in theory not be anywhere near as strong as haste. I was looking for validation or disapproval (via numbers that still prove mastery is better than haste after 30% buffed). In my eyes it makes little sense to forge to something you will only be able to use twice on the first 6 fights.
    Last edited by Greywardenn; 2012-04-12 at 07:44 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    Even if I spam flay, it's unlikely that I'll get fiend up in 1.5min, which (especially with the 15% debuff) is the time it takes to kill the amalg.
    I know this is irrelevant to the threads topic, but you don't need to spam Mind Flay for it, although it does cut close, and regardless of Nerfs, you're still going to be lining up the Amalgamations death with the Grips.

    To be honest with you, if you're progressing on Spine Heroic atm, I can't imagine your Raid's having many problems on the other fights, and if you are, it's most likely not DPS problems. Since you're going to spend most of your Raid time working on Spine anyway, there's not much point reforging into a Haste build.

  14. #14
    The Patient
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    The shortening and nerfing of many encounters will result in a net dps loss. As your raid dps increases and the health of your targets decreases, things like total time spent during execute range, total time damaging zonozz with debuffs and total damage done to aoe mobs will decrease. This can result in lower dps with the same execution and performance. However, at a certain point and on certain encounters this balances out from increased uptime on heroism and potions. But nonetheless, I think the net result is still that, gear improvements aside, our total damage potential decreases as our raids become stronger and our targets lose helAth.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    Even if I spam flay, it's unlikely that I'll get fiend up in 1.5min, which (especially with the 15% debuff) is the time it takes to kill the amalg.
    I did it consistently pre-nerf when we were pushing Tendon damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywardenn View Post
    Thank you for being the only person that was basically able to read my post

    I was asking (for the 90% of people that replied w/o reading) about mastery being devalued in every fight EXCEPT FOR HM SPINE. My main concern, as petty as it sounds is to top the charts continuously and rank on WOL continuously, especially with the first 6 faceroll HM bosses. Since everything is being nerfed to the ground and dies so much faster it becomes less and less likely to have your AA and Fiend up as many times as you used to and I have definitely seen a decline in my DPS which makes sense if everything is being nuked crazy fast. If you can't have your fiend and AA up as much then Mastery should in theory not be anywhere near as strong as haste. I was looking for validation or disapproval (via numbers that still prove mastery is better than haste after 30% buffed). In my eyes it makes little sense to forge to something you will only be able to use twice on the first 6 fights.
    Question is: was full mastery ever better than 3202 haste on any fight except Ultraxion?

  16. #16
    The shortening and nerfing of many encounters will result in a net dps loss. As your raid dps increases and the health of your targets decreases, things like total time spent during execute range, total time damaging zonozz with debuffs and total damage done to aoe mobs will decrease. This can result in lower dps with the same execution and performance. However, at a certain point and on certain encounters this balances out from increased uptime on heroism and potions. But nonetheless, I think the net result is still that, gear improvements aside, our total damage potential decreases as our raids become stronger and our targets lose helAth.
    When things die faster, your DPS increases. Mostly, because the percentage of the fight that you spend under the effects of Heroism/Bloodlust, personal cooldowns, and volcano potions increases. Since our execute is burst on a CD, shorter execute times won't have too much of an effect, and will be balanced out by higher cooldown percentage.

    As to the 4pc - I don't know if I'd call stacking Haste to 30% then going mastery as "mastery heavy", but I think mastery and our 4pc isn't overly affected. Again, because of the above - we may not get quite as many fiends off (say 3 instead of 4 on a fight or something) but our percentage of the fight that we spend with our fiend out spamming MS and MB will increase. That will balance out any loss of DPS from that hypothetical 4th fiend.

    The one thing nerfs do affect is our multidot damage. Anything that decreases the time it takes for an add to die means our advantage from multidotting (that we can get damage up on multiple spread out targets, while other classes have to DPS one or two at a time) gets smaller and smaller. I remember when the 30% nerf happened in Firelands, and my damage on H Rhyolith dropped like a rock, simply because multidotting wasn't nearly as powerful when the adds died 30% quicker.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Again, because of the above - we may not get quite as many fiends off (say 3 instead of 4 on a fight or something) but our percentage of the fight that we spend with our fiend out spamming MS and MB will increase. That will balance out any loss of DPS from that hypothetical 4th fiend.
    This isn't exactly correct.

    In the real world, our SF cooldown is variable, but for this scenario let's hold it constant to 90 seconds.

    If the fight length is 3 minutes, we would have approximately 16.6% SF uptime.

    If the fight length is 4 minutes, we would have approximately 12.5% SF uptime.

    blah blah - I could go on... but you see my point
    Last edited by Hungerr; 2012-04-13 at 01:59 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Erto View Post
    I know this is irrelevant to the threads topic, but you don't need to spam Mind Flay for it, although it does cut close, and regardless of Nerfs, you're still going to be lining up the Amalgamations death with the Grips.

    To be honest with you, if you're progressing on Spine Heroic atm, I can't imagine your Raid's having many problems on the other fights, and if you are, it's most likely not DPS problems. Since you're going to spend most of your Raid time working on Spine anyway, there's not much point reforging into a Haste build.
    Agreed I just hate not seeing huge numbers lol

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywardenn View Post
    Agreed I just hate not seeing huge numbers lol
    But mastery will give you higher numbers, just not as often.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    But mastery will give you higher numbers, just not as often.
    Which is the point I was trying to make,...just not sure if I made it clear enough I guess. Since everything dies so fast Mastery can't really take its full effect since fiend is less and less likely to be ready for burn phases. I was just wondering if people were starting to stray away from mastery and had any numbers/logs to show any kind of big differences between a haste heavy build (3202 haste and the rest into mastery) and a mastery heavy build (30% haste buffed and the rest into mastery). With the mastery heavy build I have been able to rank on just about every single fight every single week until the 15% nerf hit.

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