Why Anarchy is morally correct, necessary, and better than a governed society

[Reeve]

I didn't say that tribal groups are anarchists. I said that Anarchy would not work today because of those tribal groups that today became the things we know as "countries".

Japan isn't perfect. But two things impressed me. No thefts were reported after the earthquake from 2011, showing how ethical they are towards other people. And this.

This society is obviously clean. If the earthquake happened anywhere else in the world, then the stores would probably be looted in 5 minutes.

My experience in the US has been that after many of the great disaster events, we haven't had an excess of looting either. Katrina is obviously an exception to that, but I seem to recall quite a lot of pulling together and heroic action after 9/11 also.

[skyclops]

[Slanderize]

I didn't say that tribal groups are anarchists. I said that Anarchy would not work today because of those tribal groups that today became the things we know as "countries".

Japan isn't perfect. But two things impressed me. No thefts were reported after the earthquake from 2011, showing how ethical they are towards other people. And this.

This society is obviously clean. If the earthquake happened anywhere else in the world, then the stores would probably be looted in 5 minutes.

In all fairness a big reason NOTHING was looted was because the Yakuza took a moment of their lives to make a public announcement that if they discovered anything had been looted by anyone, them and their entire family would be wiped off the map.

And again, arguably a big reason the Japanese elderly are that way towards nuclear radiation is because many of their friends, families, and neighbors suffered from extreme radiation poisoning after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It does things to your mindset that we can't even begin to fathom.

That nation is the way it is now, because of their horrible transgressions of the past, and the price they paid because of them.

Not to debase the way they are now, they could've easily gone down the path of Somalia for instance, or Iran, and told the U.S. after its proposed reconstruction plans to shove it up their ass, but they didn't. So I'm glad their society has taken such great leaps. Yet at the same time, Japanese are still pretty... ruthless, lmao. At least in business practices.

[Deleted]

My experience in the US has been that after many of the great disaster events, we haven't had an excess of looting either. Katrina is obviously an exception to that, but I seem to recall quite a lot of pulling together and heroic action after 9/11 also.

The US mentality is diverse from state to state. Can't judge the US as a whole.

[Grizzly Willy]

I didn't say that tribal groups are anarchistic. I said that anarchy would not work today because of our tribal mentality and vile nature. Stealing, deception and violence are not learned behaviors, they are human characteristics. Only way for a human being to be good is through education. This is why anarchy does not work.

Japan isn't perfect. But two things impressed me. No thefts were reported after the earthquake from 2011, showing how ethical they are towards other people. And this.

This society is obviously clean. If the earthquake happened anywhere else in the world, then the stores would probably be looted in 5 minutes.

Why are tribal peoples inherently savage?

[Catta]

True that. The curriculum that I see my kids getting is so watered down compared to the one I had.

Except history - that one keeps growing :P

[Daelak]

I didn't say that tribal groups are anarchistic. I said that anarchy would not work today because of our tribal mentality and vile nature. Stealing, deception and violence are not learned behaviors, they are human characteristics. Only way for a human being to be good is through education. This is why anarchy does not work.

Japan isn't perfect. But two things impressed me. No thefts were reported after the earthquake from 2011, showing how ethical they are towards other people. And this.




This society is obviously clean. If the earthquake happened anywhere else in the world, then the stores would probably be looted in 5 minutes.

Stealing, deception, and violence are LEARNED behaviors! Where did you get this misinformation come from? There is no genetic link to any of the aforementioned actions you just stated. You are lying or misinformed. Humans are not inherently violent, nor are they inherently hateful, hundreds of thousands of years of tribal/in-group existence has created an own race bias between the species but the other mal-adaptive behaviors are all created through scarcity and perceived scarcity.

Humans, and even in a broader sense mammals, are the most dependent/weak species on the planet. Government and society are necessary for the good of the tribe. Once the human race sees itself as the same then we will finally have the authority to call ourselves a civilization. Fundamentalists of all stripes want to destroy progress of man for the sake of the coming their god. It is disgusting and pathetic that people waste their only life on violence and destruction for a 2000 year old promise.

Anarchy is a self-destructive, short-lived ideology that dissolves into authoritarianism. It cannot survive because its purpose is a trans formative one.

[Slanderize]

Stealing, deception, and violence are LEARNED behaviors! Where did you get this misinformation come from? There is no genetic link to any of the aforementioned actions you just stated. You are lying or misinformed. Humans are not inherently violent, nor are they inherently hateful, hundreds of thousands of years of tribal/in-group existence has created an own race bias between the species but the other mal-adaptive behaviors are all created through scarcity and perceived scarcity.

Humans, and even in a broader sense mammals, are the most dependent/weak species on the planet. Government and society are necessary for the good of the tribe. Once the human race sees itself as the same then we will finally have the authority to call ourselves a civilization. Fundamentalists of all stripes want to destroy progress of man for the sake of the coming their god. It is disgusting and pathetic that people waste their only life on violence and destruction for a 2000 year old promise.

Anarchy is a self-destructive, short-lived ideology that dissolves into authoritarianism. It cannot survive because its purpose is a trans formative one.

Deception is a learned skill. Theft and violence aren't learned behaviors, they're instinctual behaviors. That's not to say they're to be encouraged, but they are most definitely instinctual.

Instinctual behavior isn't proven by genetic links either. That'd be akin to saying that there's no instinctual knowledge for raccoons to wash their food because they're not in the least bit aquatic in nature. Yet case after case shows that a raccoon will take a sugar cube to a water source to wash it, and wash it down to nothingness, until it learns that the water is actually "stealing" the sugar cube, at which point in time it just shoves it in its mouth before it loses its treat.

[Redversion]

My experience in the US has been that after many of the great disaster events, we haven't had an excess of looting either. Katrina is obviously an exception to that, but I seem to recall quite a lot of pulling together and heroic action after 9/11 also.

When a part of a nation is hit by a tsunami, we know that the tsunami did not choose to attack us. That it has no malice or any feelings of any kind. It hit us and there was nothing we could do about it. It becomes "the ____ coast was hit by a massive natural disaster."

When a group plans an attack on a nation, the nation itself is under an attack. In 9/11, the terrorists ultimate goal was not to destroy the twin towers. The goal was an attack on the nation as a whole. There is a huge difference.

Not to mention the massive size of the states and how each state and each city within its state have many differences.

In all fairness a big reason NOTHING was looted was because the Yakuza took a moment of their lives to make a public announcement that if they discovered anything had been looted by anyone, them and their entire family would be wiped off the map.

And again, arguably a big reason the Japanese elderly are that way towards nuclear radiation is because many of their friends, families, and neighbors suffered from extreme radiation poisoning after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It does things to your mindset that we can't even begin to fathom.

That nation is the way it is now, because of their horrible transgressions of the past, and the price they paid because of them.

Not to debase the way they are now, they could've easily gone down the path of Somalia for instance, or Iran, and told the U.S. after its proposed reconstruction plans to shove it up their ass, but they didn't. So I'm glad their society has taken such great leaps. Yet at the same time, Japanese are still pretty... ruthless, lmao. At least in business practices.

You know nothing of Japan if you think that many of us care or even think about yakuza. I do not even want think of how you come up with your theories.

[Slanderize]

When a part of a nation is hit by a tsunami, we know that the tsunami did not choose to attack us. That it has no malice or any feelings of any kind. It hit us and there was nothing we could do about it. It becomes "the ____ coast was hit by a massive natural disaster."

When a group plans an attack on a nation, the nation itself is under an attack. In 9/11, the terrorists ultimate goal was not to destroy the twin towers. The goal was an attack on the nation as a whole. There is a huge difference.

Not to mention the massive size of the states and how each state and each city within its state have many differences.

You know nothing of Japan if you think that many of us care or even think about yakuza. I do not even want think of how you come up with your theories.

I know enough about Japan to know that their Gaman (spelling?) would keep a majority of them from looting, but also as far as the U.K. reported in the Telegraph and from Japanese news outlets and their "reliable sources" that the Yakuza was out patrolling the debris to ensure that no looting was being done, even by any low life miscreants. To imply that you have zero miscreants running around in a nation that has the criminal multinational organization that is the Yakuza, is delusional at best. My only point was that your criminal institutions also have some level of "Gaman" in order to do such things, as the cartels of the southern parts of America make no such attempts. Although in all fairness the cartels that dominate the south have very little heritage shared in common with a state such as Louisiana.

You know nothing of Japan if you think "many of you care nothing" or even think about them, as it is a Japanese organization full of Japanese citizens. YOU might not think about them, but then again that is simply YOU. Blindly ignoring obvious factors to help achieve ZERO LOOTING is asinine. You trying to paint me as some sort of debauching factor towards the Japanese people is another asinine aspect of your personality as well. At this point in time I could then proclaim that you're not worth thinking about, or how I do not wish to understand your thought process, but then I'd simply be as close minded as you when coming across someone else views that I might not happen to agree with wholeheartedly.

[Deleted]

I think people interested in the broader subject may want to read Protagoras, Plato and Aristotle concerning societies.

[semaphore]

If anarchy is necessary, explain how society has functioned in a non-anarchic state. Terrible arguments in the OP.

In all fairness a big reason NOTHING was looted was because the Yakuza took a moment of their lives to make a public announcement that if they discovered anything had been looted by anyone, them and their entire family would be wiped off the map.

No it wasn't. The Yakuza's response is a symptom of a very pervasive and deep seated mentality in the greater Japanese society that emphasied responsibility, lawfulness, order and the greater good. The Yakuza took part in the relief efforts because that is what ordinary Japanese citizens did. You are confusing the cause and effect.

Thats what you have been taught it is all you know.As stated before the tribes of indians lived in relative peaceful anarchy before white man came with
His governments & structed society

Tribal governments are still governments.

[Dawn Falcon]

Without the structure of government, power companies would not exist which power your computers and all web servers.

You just shot your foot off. What do you think the open source movement is?

---------- Post added 2012-04-17 at 01:44 AM ----------

I think people interested in the broader subject may want to read Protagoras, Plato and Aristotle concerning societies.

Yea, that's certainly the way to bore them of the entire topic before they have the chance to get more interested.

The argument for "pure" anarchy is weak, but the fact is that we've gone far too far down the statist path, and it's enabled Corporatism to spread on the back of Capitalism, neither of which are remotely good for Human societies. Capitalism being quite separate from the free market.

[Artravus]

Anarchy would never work. You know those people who kill other people? They would still exist in an anarchy. You know those greedy people who only care for themselves? They would still exist in an anarchy. You know those people who will do anything for a bit of power? They would still exist in an anarchy.

The reason that humanity began forming governments/power structures in the first place is because someone would always grab power and take control. There's your government. An anarchic society has never existed and sustained itself because someone will always step up and grab power. Don't try and tell me that an anarchy would be a utopia and everyone would be nice and all problems would have a resolution because it isn't true. Don't tell me that everything would be organized like you say it is in your post because it wouldn't happen.

All of this organization simply WOULD NOT be there in an anarchic society because there is no one there to keep an organized pack of people who think differently than other people in line. A group of angry people who own guns (I assume they will just buy/acquire guns since there is no gun control?) can always attack an opposing group, and no matter the outcome, there is still civil war going on, and that's never good. If this group of people is big enough, they can mimic what has happened throughout history and kill enough people to establish a government or some sort of power structure with them in control.

I'm sorry, but it could never work. History can tell you that so many times in so many different ways that you could die before you could hear them all.

[Trigunflame]

So, If you can come up with another argument that you think the state can solve better than anarchy, please, share it, and I'll post my response.

Nuclear Weapons. What would we do with them and how would we limit access without said government?

If you think it would be A-OK to trust various private "defense" entities with access to nuclear arms; knowing full well the amount of bible thumping rednecks who wish for the end-times to be upon us, you are in serious need of psychiatric help.

[Slanderize]

If anarchy is necessary, explain how society has functioned in a non-anarchic state. Terrible arguments in the OP.



No it wasn't. The Yakuza's response is a symptom of a very pervasive and deep seated mentality in the greater Japanese society that emphasied responsibility, lawfulness, order and the greater good. The Yakuza took part in the relief efforts because that is what ordinary Japanese citizens did. You are confusing the cause and effect.

Yes, referred to as Gaman. Meaning that the criminal organization's leadership believes in this philosophy, and sent out his little troopers to defend the wreckage from anyone in his shared society that would not believe in said philosophy. It's also a point I brought up in response to the first person trying to enlighten me. I do not know how to emphasize "NOTHING" any more. Maybe I should put it in bold. A big reason, a HUGE REASON. That NOTHING was looted, was because the Yakuza believing in Gaman and their pervading culture of dignity and self responsibility, went out of its way to enforce that culture against any who would fall prey to base greed.

Which if I remember right this is a Buddhist mindset, and since the origins of this whole conversation was "We should all be more like the Japanese." And the premise of the Japanese's enlightened Buddhist views were begot after their Imperial Empire bit off more than it could chew, it bears the question yet again should we really be like the Japanese? Take on the world with bloodshed and war only to be taught what a colossal error that is, and then become enlightened?

I think it's much wiser to skip the whole Imperialistic Empire driven mindset myself, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Crocadial]

I reply with one well known observation

"War.....War never changes"

War, read the word, understand it and define it. This one concept is why anarchy would never work.

[Pugzforhugz]

Your example of anarchy working only works if people were to become non-violent. It is a human condition. Privately owned courts where the defendant and prosecutor mutually agree to show up? "Hi, yes I murdered your husband and family, but let me civilly defend myself in this court." Mercenaries for national defense? "Hello mercenary gang. I'm here to invade your country. Here is X amount of dollars to join my side in the conflict. Oh civilian defense you say? My my, how will my government funded military stand against your small arms, good heavens."
This unfortunately is not a perfect world where people are good people. Anarchy does lead to violence simply because of humans being humans.

[Crocadial]

The OP's argument has the same fundamental flaw that brought down the soviet union, the human element. If you remove it both communism and anarchy would work fine, but if we remove the human element would we be more advanced? maybe....would we be us? No.

It is fine to be altruistic and believe in us rising above what we are, I also believe we can. But I am also a realist, in our current state we try to follow the path that works the best for us, is it perfect? no, but shades of gray is what we are as a species. Until something changes a pure philosophy such as chaos capitalism, pure anarchy or total communism will be impossible to create let alone sustain.

[Rhyseh]

Human beings at their core are violent and selfish. Sure this can be transcended, however all these non-violent anarchists would achieve is to get themselves killed or enslaved to those more violent types.

You just shot your foot off. What do you think the open source movement is?

Last time I checked the open source movement didn't create and install power stations and power grids. In fact the only thing that open source did was create the OS that alot of the mentioned webservers run on. Open source did not create the hardware that the OS lives, the metal rack the server lives in, the copper cable that connects it to the web or the networking hardware that allows it all to connect together. In fact I have no idea what open source has to do with this conversation.

Without the cushy lives that government has created for people open source wouldn't exist. In fact computers probably wouldn't exist as we'd all be trying to survive/kill each other within out little anarchist tribes....

Actually in a true anarchist society tribes wouldn't exist as it implies a form of structure, rank and rules. So we would just have individual psycopaths running around killing each other for their own personal gain........ Doesn't seem like Utopia to me.....