Thougts on Legendaries (Design and Experience)

[Deleted]

Hello, I would like to share some thoughts and feedback I have on legendaries in the past, and legendaries in the future. This have nothing with MoP Lore, but more of design of the legendary experience.

My main is called Needle, and I obtained the infamous Shadowmourne and Dragonwrath (At the time). I played my mage since around late ulduar, and I raid 10 man. (I will try to remain objective on my class and raid setting).
I want to discuss different things about legendaries in the past, while reflecting what I think was great and what had some flaws. How they are obtained (Speed, Difficult, Lore/Journey), How powerful they should be (Strength, Usage/Proc).

My post includes alot of examples from the past, and solutions/thoughts. Legendaries are often loved and hated, because how powerful they are. They are obtained from a mixture of luck, dedication and skill.
We had many different legendaries, each with their own feel.

The List:

Talisman of Binding Shard (Obtained in Molten Core, Baron Geddon - Dropped once, not obtainable)
Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros (Molten Core) (Paladin,Warrior)
Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker (Black Wing Lair/Molten Core)(Rogue/Warrior)
Atiesh, Greatstaff of the Guardian (AQ40/Naxx, not obtainable) (Druid/Priest/Mage/Warlock)
Warglaives of Azzinoth (Black Temple) (Rogue/Warrior)
Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury (Sunwell Plateau) (Hunter)
Val'anyr (Ulduar 25) (Druid/Paladin/Priest/Shaman)
Shadowmourne (Icecrown Citadel 25) (Death Knight, Paladin, Warrior)
Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest (Firelands) (Druid/Priest/Mage/Shaman/Warlock)
Fangs of the Father (Golad, Twilight of Aspects and Tiriosh, Nightmare of Ages) (Dragon Soul) (Rogue)

There are other things like Black Qiraji Resonating Crystal, the 7 Kael'thas legendaries, Ammo and Quest items and such -But those are not really relevant.

The Journey

The lore and quest of legendaries have always been special.
I remember the Thunderfury quest - Which had its own charm - You had to summon and defeat a "world boss", to obtain it. To perform the summon, you had to gain tons of mats and drops from BWL/MC.
Sulfuras was grinded mats and a drop from Ragnaros.
Atiesh are the only legendary I am not 100% sure what happened, but it includes an epic final event in Stratholm to cleanse it.
While Warglaives didn't include any quest, it fit lore-ish.
Thori'dal was just a drop.
Val'anyr was just a quest.

Shadowmourne was when it got intresting. While it weren't lore heavy (As Blizzard couldn't let people wield Frostmourne, they added Shadowmourne). While that being said, the story was great - and the quest and stages was fun and new. You had to do different things to empower your weapon in the journey to make it to an legendary. These quest required the raid to participate. This was great fun, but had the flaw - You could not kill this boss on heroic (Atleast in the start), while doing the boss quest (Putricide, Lana'thel, Sindragosa). It also included a gold sink, and a grinding process (50 shards), similar to Val'anyr (30 fragments) - and at last to kill Lich King.
There were also added a chest, which gave you several unique items.I think the chest is one of the best things, especially if your raid distributed the items. It made everyone recieve a reward for helping with the legendary.

Dragonwrath was great. I think the lore was fitting, and very intresting - And the quest where you had to infiltrate The Nexuz was awesome. While it was not very "hard", I believe it was one of the quest I enjoyed the most in my entire WoW experience. You also had to collect items during an encounter - While it had the same problem as Shadowmourne, it was still possible to pull it off on heroic. I disliked that you could pull the boss, collect the item and wipe - Thus negating the "challenge" by defeating the encounter and doing the quest. It also included a gold sink, and killing Ragnaros.

Fangs of the Father was even better in terms of lore and quests. It was Rogue specific - And that caused problems, but it made the quest itself so fitting, and truely legendary. It had another gold sink, and some very cool quest. I really liked that the quest was somewhat hard - I "died" several times on both of the stealth quests. And you had to kill DW at the end.

Shadowmourne, Dragonwrath and Fangs of the Father - Is in my opnion heading in the right direction. If you compare them to the past legendaries, the whole quest and concept are wonderful. I really disliked the old model, which was purely "rng" drops (Sulfuras, Thunderfury, Warglaives, Thori'dal). Val'anyr and Atiesh (Again not sure if I am missing something) was based on rng shard/fragment drops - but they both required you to kill a "hard" boss to obtain them. Yogg+3 was killable for most 25 man guilds, but was still an semi hardmode. For Atiesh Kel'Thuzad and C'thun was only killed by very few guilds because of their difficulty (back then).

They both had a "gate", which meant it was not possible to aquire them by killing 4 bosses in the current tier each week, for months.
This is where I think the new legendaries had a problem. The quest got better, the lore got better - but I don't think the idea of anyone getting the legendaries is a good idea.
Its not because I want only the few best guilds in the world to get it, or require you to be able to defeat all the content. But I think some kind of "gate" system - Where you had to defeat a certain boss on hardmode, or do something hard on a boss. I know pugging is very popular at big servers, and I pug every week on my alt myself, but I believe you have to do something special to obtain the legendary, instead of just grinding that specific instance for some time. While the new legendaries all require you to kill the final boss, Lich King, Ragnaros and Deathwing are all very easy to kill (Because of the buffs and nerfs).
An example of "gate" could be - Yorsahj H drops that certain item. or any heroic boss drops the item.

Another problem is also the always discussed 10 vs 25 man.
I believe in 25 man definetly having an edge in terms of obtaining a legendary- but I dislike the speed it was getting at.
Especially during Firelands, you could create 3-4 Dragonwraths in a 25 man, when you had created 1 in a 10 man. This was mostly because all the quest was grind based - And 25 man had an edge in all 3 stages. This was better in Dragon Soul - but an 8/8 N 25 man should not be able to get a legendary faster than an 8/8 HC 10 man.
You can solve this by doing 2 things: 1. creating the "gates" in the process. An viable option would be to let guilds get diffrent versions of the staffs, depending on progress. That means, that it could include; "lore/fun quest" part, an grind part and a gate part. There could be several of each part, depending on what suits the legendary.
2. By making Heroic modes giving more quest items.

I always want to say a few things about the Rogue only legendary. I believe it have both cons and pros. In MoP, we will have 11 classes. The problem by having a rogue only legendary is, it makes every 10 man raiding to include a rogue. When we hit 11 classes, this might force certain classes or specs out of the raiding scene, if its a class legendary.
While that being said, it also have many pro's. The rogue questline are created just for the rogue, so you have to use all the rogue tricks there is - from pickpocket to stealthing past guards, stunning, kicking etc. It made the experience fun, and the lore and story was fitting for the rogue. It is also easier to balance that legendary over 1 class than several.

Dragonwrath because it could be used by 5 classes, made people stack ranged and made melees sit out melees. Thats a negative side of having many people share a legendary.
What solution and why do you guys think is best; 1 class or 2+?

The Power
I will start out with my thoughts on which roles should have legendaries.
I might be biased towards this - But I have several problems in terms of healer/tank legendaries. Both legendaries can be extremely powerful, in another way than an dps legendary.
Because it increase the "survival" of the raid, it makes the raid alot stronger than just having. In a 10 man it would be extremely powerful, because most fights are 2-healed nowadays. It essensially makes the raid being able to survive mistakes (Which are not one-shot), because of the increase healing/absorb power the healer gains. It can easily negate boss abilties. Tank legendarys is a diffrent beast. If it increases their threat gain, it makes them not able to tank-swap with other tanks, without stopping attacking (for long periods of time). If it increases survival, you can possible negate certain abilities aswell.
This is why I think dps legendaries are better - because while it makes the fight go faster, 1 (or 3 in a 25 man), will make things easier, but not negate them (The only example would be killing something with low health extremely fast, with procs).In terms of Power in PvE, I think legendaries is in a great spot atm.
Shadowmourne was alittle to powerful, but Dragonwrath (Nerfed version) and Fangs of the Father are great. The only suggestion / problem is on multidot fights (Dragonwrath). A great change would be to increase proc chance, but add an internal cooldown.

I had some thoughts according to the "proc", or special ability the legendary have. It have in in the past been an proc which only benifit yourself. But Atiesh had something intresting, it buffed your party with extra spell power, spirit or crit. That makes the group get buffed, and this could give the legendary an intresting flow.
While this post not have something specific with MoP, it have alot of the design in the past, and where we in MoP could go with changes.

Share your thoughts!

[Cairm]

Nicely put together, I agree with you on the stage way of obtaining legendary. I, like you, dislike how a 25-man guild can get legendary faster then an heroic 10-man clearing everything.

I understand the logic behind it, but it should be buffed a little for 10man.

[Deleted]

That rogue only thingy was just lame. Other than that, the work put into quests and stages and challenges in order for someone to obtain the legendary is awesome and should stay forever.

As for the 10 man/25 man debate in my opinion the rate should be 10 man gets 1 in the time 25 man gets 2.5 and nothing else. Even tho that means 10 man raiders will see the legendaries later and are likely to end up seeing less per person (for example we only get to the point where 25 man has 2 legendaries then 10 man still has 0, seeing less) it is just the fairest and it is an edge that 25 man raiders definitely deserve.

As for the normal/heroic debate, heck in my opinion heroic kills should be mandatory for the final phase.

[Deleted]

As for the normal/heroic debate, heck in my opinion heroic kills should be mandatory for the final phase.

Our first Madness HC kill was the night our rogue finished his daggers. While you can argue thats alittle to late, it felt somewhat right.It might not need to be the final boss, but something close.

A model (assuming Dragon Soul bosses), would be to have a gate @ Morchok, A Gate at Madness, and a gate at Hagara H.

[Deleted]

ye they are preety cool



now plz ban them from arenas and rated bgs kkthxbye

p.s whilst your at it please also remove their bastard love childs aka final tier proc trinkets

Useless comment. -Azshira

[Deleted]

ye they are preety cool



now plz ban them from arenas and rated bgs kkthxbye

p.s whilst your at it please also remove their bastard love childs aka final tier proc trinkets

The reason I didn't include a PvP point of view on the post, was becaues its clearly not Blizzards wish to remove them from arenas. I read a bluepost recently about Mist of Pandaria and PvE items in PvP and PvP items in PvE, and it stated that legendarys will be one of the few items still worth. I agree that legendaries (Not really FoF, but Dragonwrath in Cata) brings an unfair advantage - And should not be allowed. But since that won't happen, I don't wanna use time on the subject

[HollowBlue]

Legen... wait for it... DARY. I don't like seeing every rogue in 4.3 with those daggers, or the casters with the 4.2 legendary.

[Kaga]

I'd like to see less instance grinding and RNG (boss drops etc.) Essentially eliminating the 10/25man difference, and being a little more forgiving if for instance my raid team choose not to clear normal, to get more time on progression etc.

I'd LOVE to see more epic solo quests, i did the nexus one on my main (although never had time to finish the quest) and did the quests up to stage 1 daggers, and both were challenging and extremely fun.

Personally, i think more items outside of raid should be part of the "grinding" this way the player can farm as little, or as much as he chooses, getting out of the experience what he puts into it. Obviously, i'd still say raid content should be required, but not to the same degree as the last 2 legendaries.

[Thrax]

I don't agree at all. RNG should be a major factor along with a proper questline. (I only had one binding, got the second 3 years later or so)
The reason being is that it needs to be rare. If everybody has it, the value is diminished entirely, I believe even the Dev's stated this recently.
If it was not RNG and more on difficulty (say heroic Rag to make the staff), it would be overkill as only hardcore would be able to get it, very bad route.

Now the tricky bit, PuGs. If in current content Blizzard design concept allows normal mode to be puggable (at least to say 6/8), than the drop should be off the last two bosses. Legendary is well deserved imo to those who make the effort to organize a skilled PuG group (though the loot drama will always exist). Anyway I hope you see my point, making a Legendary "predictable" kills the very nature of it being very exceptional. Our guild had 3 people in queue system gathering FL mats every raid and everyone knew roughly when they would get it, 3-4 weeks etc. It was ... nothing exceptional.

As for pure aesthetics of the weapons, enchants overriding it's natural look is ridiculous, especially when you have enchant animation so powerful like Landslide/PT. Imagine if back in the Thunderfury days, if someone enchanted it with Crusader, the lightning effect would be overwritten by the white glow, is that where we're headed?

[Deleted]

I don't agree at all. RNG should be a major factor along with a proper questline. (I only had one binding, got the second 3 years later or so)
The reason being is that it needs to be rare. If everybody has it, the value is diminished entirely, I believe even the Dev's stated this recently.
If it was not RNG and more on difficulty (say heroic Rag to make the staff), it would be overkill as only hardcore would be able to get it, very bad route.

I can see what your saying, but making the RNG gods determinate a legendary feels wrong. And by that system - Every pug would still be able to get it. On my server, 8/8 pugs are made in trade everyday - Which causes this problem.
While adding a random part would be nice, and exciting - It must only been to an degree. I believe the right direction is to mix the new way of legendaries with the old one - With some gating, and some grinding. The RNG "drop", just makes in clunky in my opnion.

As for pure aesthetics of the weapons, enchants overriding it's natural look is ridiculous, especially when you have enchant animation so powerful like Landslide/PT. Imagine if back in the Thunderfury days, if someone enchanted it with Crusader, the lightning effect would be overwritten by the white glow, is that where we're headed?

I must say I don't know where this comes from, as I have not talked about enchants or the look of the weapons :O

[Deleted]

Ultimately they simply aren't worth the time and effort put into them. They are good for their current tier and maybe the next unless its the last tier of an expac. They still get replaced by greens and blues in the first quest zone of a new xpac. They don't have a scaling option. I have been offered 2 different legendary's by my guild now (ulduar hammer on my holy pally and the 4.2 staff on my mage) and I have refused them both because I feel that it's simply a waste that there is no way to make them scale to the next top level.

I do find it worth it now but I do agree that legendaries could last a bit longer. Would be more fun

[Vulryth]

i wish that instead of making the 4.3 legendaries daggers, it had been something that all agility classes could use. maybe a set of 1handers that was good for druids shamans and rogues all at the same time. dual axes or something. its really a shame when only one class can use a legendary and you get kicked out of your raid spot because a guild officer high up decides he's going to reroll rogue this patch. i got screwed over because of this and pretty much abandoned all hope of finding another guild looking for a rogue after that. ill play it again in mop when this stops happening but until then I've been wasting time on alts.

tl;dr

legendaries should be for a few diff classes. rogue legendary is dumb.

[Thrax]

I must say I don't know where this comes from, as I have not talked about enchants or the look of the weapons :O

Just meant to add on to the criticism of state of Legendary weapons today
A drop is indeed clunky, and let me tell you, I have the worst RNG luck on the planet. But it is required sadly, unless they do come up with a middle-way type design which may be a little too complex. I can't see a simple solution to it other than RNG. Excitement is there, community drama is there (guilds getting two or more while others getting none), rogues taking them as stat-sticks (the Thori'dal drama). Good times!

[Deleted]

Just meant to add on to the criticism of state of Legendary weapons today
A drop is indeed clunky, and let me tell you, I have the worst RNG luck on the planet. But it is required sadly, unless they do come up with a middle-way type design which may be a little too complex. I can't see a simple solution to it other than RNG. Excitement is there, community drama is there (guilds getting two or more while others getting none), rogues taking them as stat-sticks (the Thori'dal drama). Good times!

Possibly if you had a 3 part legendary, the last part could require a rng drop. But again, it depends alot. They already stated they wanted legendarys to be more rare, so it might involve a new concept. Perhaps an event which have some kind of cooldown.

[Temp name]

i agree alot with what you said. and for 1 or 2+ classes getting a legendary, i think the best way is to make 11 quest lines (1 for each class) once per expansion, in the 2nd or 3rd tier and have each of those give a reward for the class. ofcourse then you run into problems like (lets take a paladin as an example), you're given a mace to make, and thats all fine and happy for Hpalas and Prot paladins, because it "attuned" to their essence. but what about the problem with a ret paladin, they'd get laughed at for using a 1hander, and for it to be 2hander for them would seem slightly off i think. anyways, just my take on it.

[PBitt]

Well, TBH, I'm not a big fan of legendaries, but that is probably from some personal experiences. I like the idea behind them, but most people out there are backstabbing pieces of shit, so unless said person is the guild/raid leader that acquires it and you aren't in a top 10 guild, in my experience said person with legendary is gone within 24 hours of getting it. As the only class that has never gotten one (hunter, piece of shit not-even-BiS bow from sunwell doesn't count), I would much rather see them burn in hell. Nice concept, I know my guild wasn't the only guild to experience this, and it's just not necessary to cause drama.

[Senka]

This is actually 99% in-line with how I feel about Legendaries. The 1% I disagree with is you implying everything about Fangs of the Father is great. While the questline itself was as great as Dragonwrath's (from what I heard about that staff), I have to say that Fangs of the Father feels like the weakest legendary item yet.

The randomness of the proc and the fact you lose the Agility stacks after the proc finishes just feels like a letdown for something so random. It's possible that the amount of Agility you gain is balanced around it not having 100% up-time, of course, but it still feels bad. Finishers also just aren't what they used to be after Classic.

I'm also very dissapointed at zero guild involvement past the typical, AWFUL raid item farming. There was no world boss like with Thunderfury, no outside-visible cutscenes like with Val'anyr AND Shadowmourne, no unique and cool raid fight in the questline like with Dragonwrath, and finally there was no guild pet like with Dragonwrath.
And as the final insult, I found out that even as the raid leader my guild couldn't even see the final stage at Ravenholdt when the red dragons had attacked.
My fellow rogue who graciously stepped aside to let me go first with the daggers said it best when we realized this (paraphrasing):
-Require large guild effort and investment
-Don't let guild see important events in that investment
-????
-GREAT IDEA!

In conclusion, if a legendary is going to require such large guild investment it must actually involve the guild. A guild raid is all about teamwork and making a cooperative effort with people you know. The Fangs of the Father weren't designed with that in mind at all. I could have just used any people I didn't know for a raid. It feels like the developers just weren't paying attention to what kind of experience they were really creating with this legendary.

[Deleted]

In conclusion, if a legendary is going to require such large guild investment it must actually involve the guild. A guild raid is all about teamwork and making a cooperative effort with people you know. The Fangs of the Father weren't designed with that in mind at all. I could have just used any people I didn't know for a raid. It feels like the developers just weren't paying attention to what kind of experience they were really creating with this legendary.

I agree with you. Especially on this last part. I believe the quest should have some kind of solo - orientet part.
I also believe that most of it should include the guild, and having rewards similiar to Shadowmourne.

The only thing about your post I disagree with is the strength of the legendy. While I can see that the proc can be extremely anoying, it suits the rogue class much better than say- Shadowmournes stack+aoe explosion.
Its also a bonus which is not that strong in PvP - Which I like, because while the legendaries is still best in slot in PvP, its not as overpowered as Dragonwrath.

Although, they could have made it better while it proc (Like making the finishers hit harder etc) - To make them stronger in PvE.

[Senka]

After thinking more about it, I was thinking they might have done it on purpose. Story-wise, Rogues are supposed to be loners. Still, this IS a game, and I think the solo quests were enough of a Rogue experience that they could have put in something for your guild too. Sometimes it's for the better if gameplay trumps story. A balance is good.

And well, you're right that the proc is very strong even if finishers aren't the end-all, be-all that they were in Classic (Oh, Hemo/Seal Fate...). I also like how the proc is designed specifically for Rogues, so it certainly feels more special. I was actually slightly venting there because more than once I've had them proc right before Morchok channels Earthen Fragments or Hagara starts up a Water Shield phase or we've just killed a limb tentacle... stuff like that.

[Akraen]

Atiesh is the only legendary I consider legendary due to the steps it took, its place in lore, and its significance once you obtained it. So few got it, and nobody could go back and get it.