"Clickless" action in a Diablo-style game

[Deleted]

First of all, I'm not advocating laziness, or trying to dumb down things. However, there's such a thing as quality of life in computer gaming, and that's what got me thinking about this.

EDIT: Also, and this is important: I envisioning this kind of a system for a Diablo-style game, not Diablo 3, and I'm not saying it would necessarily replace the current clicking control system, but rather add to it as an alternative.

Diablo-style games are clickers, and I'm sure Diablo 3 was kept as a clicker game partly to keep in line with the Diablo family. Thus, I'm not really suggesting that Diablo 3 itself would be given this style of control, but rather musing about what it would be like to have a game like Diablo 3 with these kinds of controls.

This system would mostly work with a Diablo style camera, ie. fixed bird's eye view.

The premise is very simple: basically you would not click to (left button) attack or to move, but in fact those actions would be automatic.

You would move your mouse cursor in the world, and your character would move with the cursor. This would also allow for a system where the distance of your cursor from your character could also determine your character's movement speed (walking, running, sprinting), which in turn could allow for speed-related abilities.

When you would mouseover an enemy, your character would attack that enemy with your left mouse attack. You could use other quick buttons and rightclick as you do now. You could even have abilities which require you to push and hold a quick button for some effect to be on, since you wouldn't have to push leftclick at all.

Obviously looting could still be done with leftclick.

This mode could be turned on and off, to go back to the normal clicker system. Also, it could be suppressed and toggled during the game, with for example CTRL, so that you could use your mouse normally.

What would this take away from the Diablo experience? Well, I for one don't see any huge repercussions as far as the level of difficulty of play goes. It would save mice though, I can tell you that.

Thoughts?

[Deleted]

The problem that I see with the system you promote is, that you'd have to center your mouse in the middle of the screen if you want to stand still or have to go afk for a sec ... that is - in my opinion - so much NOT quality of life, that i would definetely prefer clicking for actions.

[Cairhiin]

If you are clicking so much in Diablo 3 then you are doing it wrong. You can keep your right mouse button pressed and move in the direction you point your mouse exactly as you describe it.

[Deleted]

The problem that I see with the system you promote is, that you'd have to center your mouse in the middle of the screen if you want to stand still or have to go afk for a sec ... that is - in my opinion - so much NOT quality of life, that i would definetely prefer clicking for actions.

A non-issue, really. Something that can be remedied with a plethora different methods.

As I said earlier, the clickless control system could be toggled off with a push of a button. It could also toggle off automatically if you're unresponsive for X seconds, after all you're moving your mouse all the time if you're actually at the game. You could even have a system in place to autocenter the cursor on your character after X seconds.

I'm sure you can think of similar systems yourself.

If you are clicking so much in Diablo 3 then you are doing it wrong. You can keep your right mouse button pressed and move in the direction you point your mouse exactly as you describe it.

Keeping the mouse button pressed isn't, for me at least, much more comfortable than clicking, and while that system is in place - and I'm fully aware of it, the game still is a clicker.

[Youarefired]

As said above, standing still to maybe craft something or talk to someone would be pretty difficult unless there were a range around your character in which you could set the cursor and you would stand still.

It wouldn't be a bad option but I don't think I would ever use it. I like to click stuff! But I am not a clicker in WoW of course, it's a totally different style of play.

[Deleted]

I've had the opportunity to try a couple of games that use this kind of mouseover based controls :
they are highly impratical (i guess you could "get used to it" eventually), have low accuracy (more problematic but not an unsurmontable problem) and and quite limited variety-wise (wich honestly i do not see a "solution" for).
In short, Bad Idea.

[Deleted]

As said above, standing still to maybe craft something or talk to someone would be pretty difficult unless there were a range around your character in which you could set the cursor and you would stand still.

As I've said a few times, there would obviously be a toggle.

I've had the opportunity to try a couple of games that use this kind of mouseover based controls :
they are highly impratical (i guess you could "get used to it" eventually), have low accuracy (more problematic but not an unsurmontable problem) and and quite limited variety-wise (wich honestly i do not see a "solution" for).
In short, Bad Idea.

I'd be interested in those games you mentioned. Would love to see how this kind of a system has been created to an actual game. Which games were they?

Also, the accuracy isn't any lower than it is now. How could it be? If you're talking about losing your target, then you could even have the normal "push leftclick to keep current target" system in place.

Variety-wise this system would actually add to the variety of the control, not subtract from it.

[Alvito]

Auto run would be great in Diablo from recently playing 2 again it became clear very quickly having to click to move would get old. I dont agree with the changes mentioned though changing controls like that would certainly change pvp and while thats not the focus of the game it would make an issue. At some point if the controls for a game aren't what you want or very far off from what you want maybe its not a game for you.

[Deleted]

Auto run would be great in Diablo from recently playing 2 again it became clear very quickly having to click to move would get old.

Exactly. Having done those 57 million D2 runs I was simply thinking that having this kind of an additional and optional system would definitely after a decade of playing have made life a lot easier.

I dont agree with the changes mentioned though changing controls like that would certainly change pvp and while thats not the focus of the game it would make an issue. At some point if the controls for a game aren't what you want or very far off from what you want maybe its not a game for you.

Yeah, I've played Diablo (and it's iterations) since January 1997 so it's definitely the game for me. Having played it way too much, though, I was just thinking of a game like Diablo, where clicking (be it repeatedly or once and then pressed down) wouldn't necessarily have to be the driving force of the controls.

As I said before, this system could indeed be toggled off, and I don't see why anyone would use it in PvP, as it would give your enemies the advantage. Thus, it wouldn't really affect PvP in any way.

[Deleted]

Can I set moving to be like in Alien Swarm (W,S,A,D+mouse direction)?

p.s.: diablo3 is overhyped and overrated...

[Deleted]

The system is good on paper
"Clickless" 100% is not possible at all you will always need a keyboard to fire ability, as long as the "clickless" also involve the character movement as you have either decide what does this system control, abilities or movement, can't do both up to a certain degree (autoattack is fine).

what I could see with this system is the use of some abilities such a stamina based sprint like in D2, or leap attacks (by moving the mouse quickly) or something like that. If you want to do a gameplay that involves weapon contact for damage you may even think to add a whirlwind move by rotating the mouse pointer around the character. But it would end there.

The thing that come closer to this was that hack and slash developed by NCSoft if I'm not wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABcBFGK5B4w yeah this one but even this involve both classical and new gameplay in some sort of hybrid

mouse controlling stuff were being used in other games as far as I remember Black&White one of them bt definitely they did not stick much due to the precision often required to execute the commands.

leaving this here but I hurrr durred and I got the op post wrong in part. that's fine I will go sitting in a dark corner.

[Rocketsurgeon]

The tedium of a toggle to stop moving seems worse to me than clicking. All the solutions offered sound worse than the problem.
Not having to click to attack was done before in Dungeon Siege with more proactive hero and ally AI. It was a pretty divisive feature and led to a lot of talk about games that play themselves. I really didn't mind it, personally.

Seems like the easiest road would just be to get a program or peripheral to help you handle the click strain. I believe I set up something similar years back on a gamepad.

[Deleted]

"Clickless" 100% is not possible at all you will always need a keyboard to fire ability, as long as the "clickless" also involve the character movement as you have either decide what does this system control, abilities or movement, can't do both up to a certain degree (autoattack is fine).

I'm not sure you even read my original post. Like I said, you would move and attack without needing to click. You would not need to use the keyboard, nor leftclick to attack with your "leftclick ability" (your base attack).

what I could see with this system is the use of some abilities such a stamina based sprint like in D2, or leap attacks (by moving the mouse quickly) or something like that. If you want to do a gameplay that involves weapon contact for damage you may even think to add a whirlwind move by rotating the mouse pointer around the character. But it would end there.

Well, my point definitely was not to have any mouse gestures in this control system, as they would simply overcomplicate things.

mouse controlling stuff were being used in other games as far as I remember Black&White one of them bt definitely they did not stick much due to the precision often required to execute the commands.

B&W has a completely different control system from what I'm talking about, not to mention it's a completely different genre as well.

The tedium of a toggle to stop moving seems worse to me than clicking. All the solutions offered sound worse than the problem.

Having read people's replies, it would seem nobody really got the idea I'm trying to bring forth here, and everyone just skimmed through my post and then started to reply on what they imagine is the system I'm talking about. Nobody really seems to be replying to what I'm actually saying, so I'm not surprised things "sound" like something they're actually not.

There would obviously be no "tedium" of toggling the ability, as you wouldn't have to use it at all in the first place. As for "stop moving", it wouldn't be a problem, not in the system that I have in my head, and we already have a "stop moving" function in Diablo 3 and 2 for example; you push down SHIFT and your character doesn't move when you click, but instead shoots. Something that has to be used very often when playing a ranged class.

Not having to click to attack was done before in Dungeon Siege with more proactive hero and ally AI. It was a pretty divisive feature and led to a lot of talk about games that play themselves. I really didn't mind it, personally.

DS has an autoattack feature, which is completely different from what I'm talking about.

Seems like the easiest road would just be to get a program or peripheral to help you handle the click strain. I believe I set up something similar years back on a gamepad.

If I needed a system like that for an existing game, then of course I would set up something like that, but that's not what this thread is about. I'm talking about a hypothetical game that doesn't exist, that would be a Diablo-style game, but one that would utilize a more modern approach to controlling the character by giving an optional control system. I personally have no "click strain" in Diablo 3. That doesn't mean the control system couldn't be better in such a game, though.

Can I set moving to be like in Alien Swarm (W,S,A,D+mouse direction)?

p.s.: diablo3 is overhyped and overrated...

No you can't, no it isn't, and this wasn't the thread for your question and definitely not for your flaming.

[Lathais]

Besides making it a pain to stand still, this is just plain lazy. Uncomfortable to click? Go watch TV or read a book or play outside. If you cannot click a damn button, quit using your PC.

[Deleted]

Besides making it a pain to stand still

Again, I don't think it would be a "pain" since you could choose to not use the system.

this is just plain lazy. Uncomfortable to click? Go watch TV or read a book or play outside. If you cannot click a damn button, quit using your PC.

The original Diablo had no item labels you could pop up to see the items on the ground. You had to mouseover the items to find them. It also had no running. You had to walk painfully slow everywhere. Diablo 2 had labels and running. Diablo 2 made you carry town portal and identify scrolls, Diablo 3 gives you those abilities without scrolls. Diablo 1 and 2 had you chugging mana potions, something you can't do in Diablo 3. You had to click the gold on the ground in Diablo 1 and 2, you simply walk over it in Diablo 3. The ability to keep your leftclick pushed down to move and continuously attack wasn't included in Diablo.

As you can see, a lot of things have changed, things you could say the same about. How it suddenly became a test of one's manhood to click a lot is beyond me.

[Caiada]

I could see it working in a differently designed game, actually.

Not a bad idea, OP. With some minor adjustments, it might be pretty convenient.

[Rocketsurgeon]

Having read people's replies, it would seem nobody really got the idea I'm trying to bring forth here...

If everyone else has a problem, it might not be them with the problem. I did read every word you wrote, and responded with an opinion. Your certainty about your own opinion doesn't carry over so well onto those of others and its making you come off as hostile. You asked for thoughts.

No, I don't typically need to hit shift when playing any of the Diablo games. Certain attacks or when I'm more keen to spray and pray, but D3 seemed to have much larger hit boxes than its predecessor. I do indeed consider your suggestions to be tedious if there were put in front of me. Just wouldn't be my kind of game setup. I suggested taking the matter into your own hands with existing games because it seemed that your preferences were a minority and I know what thats like.

Sometimes I like to dream up my perfect things, other times I like to try to make more of whats actually out there appealing to me. Without anything for me to latch onto in the original post to snowball ideas of a different game, I sided with the latter. The meat of what I'm reading is simply the desire to see new games come out with both standard controls and those you might prefer. Thats a hard sell.

[Deleted]

If everyone else has a problem, it might not be them with the problem.

The problem is forums. Discussing ideas on forums is like bathing in feces. It's counterproductive and it'll leave you feeling like shit. That's where my problem is; realizing this, and still doing it.

I did read every word you wrote, and responded with an opinion. Your certainty about your own opinion doesn't carry over so well onto those of others and its making you come off as hostile. You asked for thoughts.

What people may interpret as hostility is simply the frustration from realizing that people are clearly not seeing what I see in my head. I did in fact ask for thoughts, so that there could be a discussion, which entails you giving your opinion, and me responding to it. Not just you giving your opinion, and the discussion ending.

No, I don't typically need to hit shift when playing any of the Diablo games. Certain attacks or when I'm more keen to spray and pray, but D3 seemed to have much larger hit boxes than its predecessor.

Ranged attacks have a range longer than the visible area, which means that in order for you to shoot "into the darkness", which is obviously a good idea, you'll have to shift-shoot, because you won't have a target to put your mouse cursor on. This is something I did quite often for example in AS and CS, two places you really don't want to get surprised by monsters that were lurking outside the visible screen.

If you don't use shift to shoot then you clearly don't utilize the above method. To each their own, of course, but it's a great tool for killing things before they get to touch you. Imagine those super fast champions on Inferno, for example. You may want to take some of their health down before they even get in range.

I do indeed consider your suggestions to be tedious if there were put in front of me. Just wouldn't be my kind of game setup.

I understand, but a feature can't be tedious if you aren't forced to use it, which is why I said several times it would be a toggleable and suppressable feature, which wouldn't have to be on at all. Also, as for it being tedious to stop moving, I mentioned one or two things how to make it less tedious. For example, automatically returning the cursor to the character after a few seconds when you let go of the mouse (or flip to another window and so on).

The point here is that pretty much everything can be fixed, changed and altered in pretty much any way. If you take an irrelevant little tidbit of the whole idea and concentrate on that, saying that and that alone is why the idea is bad, then you're missing the point that such an irrelevant little tidbit can of course be changed and fixed without changing the whole idea.

In any case, having played Diablo, all of it's iterations and pretty much all of it's clones for fifteen years now, I just know clicking to move and clicking to use your basic attack (leftclick ability) - whether you do it by clicking or pushing the mouse button constantly which I for one find even less comfortable than clicking - is something I have realized is basically pointless, and could be done away with without impacting the controlling system in any way or form, and in fact opening quite a few doors for new features instead. That's just my personal fifteen years (of my adult life) of experience as a gaming addict talking though, which is obviously anecdotal evidence, so other people might be inclined to disagree.

As an aside, I think that MMO's such as WoW should have a built in mouseover casting feature; every single spell on every single character I use has to be in a macro for mouseover (/use [@mouseover,harm,nodead][@target,harm,nodead]Spell), so it might as well be an automatic thing. On the same lines as this idea was.

[Furye]

Think of the click as a ''confirm'' button. The clickless system you propose leaves next to no room for error while playing. The click system works very well with the ''holding shift key'' for ranged class, for example. Also, when you move, you only click once and hold it down. Having to move automatically by moving your mouse would surely bring more complications.

I don't think it would be an improvement over the current game's mechanics. And if you click to get items anyway, why not click to kill enemies ? :P

EDIT: IMO, everything that's automatic, be it macros or mouseovers, is pretty much evil to me. I like to be in full control.

[Uriel]

hmm dont think that would work.. what if wou wanna click a Healtpotion or so at the Bottomframe but dont wanna move south?
In Diablo there is the possibillity to Click and then just hold the button and move around, maybe thats a alternativ.

However i really like the Mythos Gameplay. You could either move by point and click or via WASD Keys.
When i first logged into D3 Beta i tried to move viy Keys untill i remembered that i have to point and click... havent played any Diablogames for Ages.

Howver i always thought it is a major Flaw that the Left Button is for moving AND attacking. As a Rangedclass you always need to hold Shift for not moving making it harder to reach Skillkeys.