MOP Warrior Concerns.

[PizzaSHARK]

It’s frustrating, but we’re not the only class in this boat. It’s surprisingly common.

We're the only class that was fairly weak before this kind of behavior started, and I still can't help but feel Warriors are still getting the shaft overall. Sure, Rogues are getting CR resold to them as a talent (that nobody is gonna take), but look at the baseline skills they got - stealth for their entire team, and an ability that allows them to entirely ignore armor AND do more damage?

That's a hell of a lot better than some little banners, especially if those banners can be stomped like totems.

[Pua]

We're the only class that was fairly weak before this kind of behavior started, and I still can't help but feel Warriors are still getting the shaft overall. Sure, Rogues are getting CR resold to them as a talent (that nobody is gonna take), but look at the baseline skills they got - stealth for their entire team, and an ability that allows them to entirely ignore armor AND do more damage?

That's a hell of a lot better than some little banners, especially if those banners can be stomped like totems.

It's funny that I'm now defending banners, and you're lolling them. Well, ish. xD

As far as concerns me, the biggest complaints at the moment are the following three:

1) Our talents, in the main, are terrible. They’re really in desperate need of a complete overhaul from top to bottom.

2) We still have far too much bloat on our bars, with skills and abilities not contributing to a coherent “package”.

3) Rage feels like a hindrance and Enrage is a nuisance to manage. There were other, more compelling, options open.

Granted, of course, this is the view of a PvE player. Our problems in PvP on live are well-documented, and it’s worrying that none seem to be getting any real solutions in the next expansion. In fact, the amount of control being injected is set to make things a lot worse.

The thing is, I’m not convinced those are “warrior” problems if you catch my drift – I’m more inclined to call them “system” problems, problems that Greg Street and his team don’t really understand or have the capability to fix.

If you ask me (and nobody is), World of Warcraft needs amputated from the torso out so that it can grow again. It would be a monumental task, but an item squish should be accompanied by a level cap squish, probably back to 60. From there, they can restructure the entirety of the levelling content around the new level cap and only have 60 levels worth of talents and abilities to dole out.

Then they have to be resistant to the QQ storm that would go hand in hand with an absolute gutting of the power/bloat explosion that’s happened over the last two expansions.

[PizzaSHARK]

It's funny that I'm now defending banners, and you're lolling them. Well, ish. xD

I know, right? It's not that I think War Banner is bad (though I really hope they just make them immune or highly resistant to damage given the cooldowns involved), but that it only looks good until you look at the goodies other people are getting. Symbiosis, Rogues stealthing their entire team, etc; that shit's amazing, it's game changing.

War Banner? Meh... probably not. Well, Skull Banner will probably be a pretty handy PvE raid DPS buff, but the other two? Pff.

Then they have to be resistant to the QQ storm that would go hand in hand with an absolute gutting of the power/bloat explosion that’s happened over the last two expansions.

If you want to see just how completely fucking absurd stat bloat's become, compare the level 78 blues from Wrath of the Lich King to the level 78 blues (or even greens!) from Cataclysm: http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=41347;55260&l=78

[Celarent]

2) We still have far too much bloat on our bars, with skills and abilities not contributing to a coherent “package”.

Yes. Speaking strictly about PvP, here — the "micro" of the class has alloyed the "macro"; thus, in spite of Blizzard's vivid spec summaries, the class lacks a "hook" that's immediately obvious in gameplay. Sure, there's Charge and Heroic Leap, but both are so susceptible to crowd-control nowadays, warrior players find themselves swept up into the general population of classes trying to get out of someone's root or snare or stun and about their own business.

Contrast this with the rogue or mage, whose strengths are immediately prominent in good gameplay from the mid-20s. Rogues, elusive and predatory; mages, flamboyant and crafty. If I pick up either one, I receive what's been advertised.

Warriors need a mechanical push to better match their class concept. If we're supposed to be relentless and untiring, we should have commensurate abilities and immunities.

[Beefkow]

3) Rage feels like a hindrance and Enrage is a nuisance to manage. There were other, more compelling, options open.

I agree, enrage is very stressful for mop atm, and the fact that enrage only lasts for 6 seconds and its required for MS and CS to crit (my bolded words should point things out...) and you only get 50% increase rage... which personally isn't alot.

Im also sure that blizzard can do alot better with enrage... maybe instead of having the glyph "enraged speed" exist, maybe bake in the glyph with all of the enrages otherwise making it baseline for all specs.

[Nobleshield]

The one thing I really don't like is that we have too many damn abilities, and pretty much ALL of them are useful and need to be on our bars. It feels very overwhelming; I don't mind having a lot of utility, but having two dozen abilities that must be on my bars and keybound and used in various situations is a little bit much.

That's just the new abilities we got on top of what we already have, not even counting things like the Banners. I think even right now we have way too many things that need to be on bars.

[Gatsu]

The one thing I really don't like is that we have too many damn abilities, and pretty much ALL of them are useful and need to be on our bars. It feels very overwhelming; I don't mind having a lot of utility, but having two dozen abilities that must be on my bars and keybound and used in various situations is a little bit much.

That's just the new abilities we got on top of what we already have, not even counting things like the Banners. I think even right now we have way too many things that need to be on bars.

The more we have, the more is fun.
They are making the game easier (and the class dumb) every expansion, no need for more simplification.

[Tabartank]

The more we have, the more is fun.
They are making the game easier (and the class dumb) every expansion, no need for more simplification.

No. More=/=fun. It's stupid when I have to focus more on my abilities then what the other player is doing and thinking "what can I do to counter his move".

[Gatsu]

No. More=/=fun. It's stupid when I have to focus more on my abilities then what the other player is doing and thinking "what can I do to counter his move".

lol so you like to faceroll?

focusing more on your abilities? you should know that to press even without watching your bars, if not, you're doing it wrong.

[johnrockks]

We really don't. Play a hunter for like an hour at endgame pvp. Now THAT'S an excessive move set.

[Crushima]

Last time I checked, you only needed 5% hit to not miss with special attacks against a level 85 target. Also, last time I checked, we still generate rage on attacks that are dodged or parried. So, why is this our biggest issue again?

If ms gets missed (night elf racial, happens alot) or dodged (all the time with melee such as rogues, enh shamans, feral druids with 30% dodge in pvp..) or parried, yes we get rage back BUT we dont gain the benefits that a MS hit would unlock.

Its the same on live now. Slaughter stacks to 3. If you get dodged, parried or a miss, you loose your stack pretty much, which is worth 30% more dmg on specials.

Give up on warrior PVP, until CS gets removed or baked into MS, until STR gives crit as well as ap (same as for the other melee).

[Tabartank]

lol so you like to faceroll?

focusing more on your abilities? you should know that to press even without watching your bars, if not, you're doing it wrong.

Then by your logic that less abilities = faceroll, shamans should be the most faceroll class ever considering they removed a ton of abilities from them

What I'm trying to say is that it's ridiculous to have 1 million abilities, which all don't have a big impact on a fight. I want less abilities, but with more impact.

[Pua]

I agree, enrage is very stressful for mop atm, and the fact that enrage only lasts for 6 seconds and its required for MS and CS to crit (my bolded words should point things out...) and you only get 50% increase rage... which personally isn't alot.

Im also sure that blizzard can do alot better with enrage... maybe instead of having the glyph "enraged speed" exist, maybe bake in the glyph with all of the enrages otherwise making it baseline for all specs.

Actually, I’d go further than that. Think “Demonic Fury meets Zealotry” when you think of Enrage; you build up rage to 100 then activate Enrage, a self buff that increases the damage of all your abilities and lasts for… 12 seconds? The rest of the time, with rage flowing freely, you bleed it off as normal with your spec rage burner or Heroic Strike. The aim is for high uptime of enrage, and never being rage capped otherwise.

lol so you like to faceroll?

focusing more on your abilities? you should know that to press even without watching your bars, if not, you're doing it wrong.

I knew someone would create the straw man argument of “lol faceroll” as soon as the needless complexity on warrior action bars started to be discussed. When you don’t really understand the impact of inelegant complexity, it’s easier to sneer elitism than engage with the topic.

I recommend Cynwise’s magnum opus on the topic. It’s warlock central, but the points are universally solid.

[Gatsu]

I'm using almost the same amount of keybinds for every class I play, so I don't see where all those "million abilities" and "needless complexity" are for warriors (the class I play the most and since vanilla).

[Nobleshield]

I'm using almost the same amount of keybinds for every class I play, so I don't see where all those "million abilities" and "needless complexity" are for warriors (the class I play the most and since vanilla).

You don't? Let's see, here's all the abilities that as a Warrior I need to have (this is current, not counting MoP yet):

* Shield Slam
* Heroic Strike
* Cleave
* Revenge
* Thunderclap
* Shockwave
* Demo Shout
* Shield Block
* Spell reflect
* Shield Wall
* Last Stand
* Rallying Cry
* Shattering Throw
* Rend
* Heroic Throw
* Heroic Leap
* Battle Shout
* Commanding Shout
* Racial if active
* Devastate
* Berzerker Rage
* Enraged Regen
* Challenging Shout
* Taunt
* Trinket 1 if active
* Trinket 2 if active
* Pummel
* Disarm
* Charge
* Intercept
* Intervene (mouseover)
* Vigilance

And that's not even counting things like Colossus Smash and Overpower and Execute which are in place of some abilities for stance switches during hard burn phases.

Pretty much every single Warrior ability needs to be on your bar and hotkeyed, because of the usefulness. This seems to be continuing even into MoP, giving us a cornucopia of things that we need to be aware of. That doesn't mean it's a good design, in fact it's a bit overwhelming and really clutters up our UI since due to WoW's macro style we can't combine abilities.

Let's compare this to Warriors in Rift, although they are a pretty different beast (much closer to Prot Paladins due to the "attack points" system):

* One single target "builder" macro with some 3-4 abilities macroed together
* One finisher macro for 3 AP
* One AOE "builder" macro with 3-4 abilities macroed together

Note: All attack macros include a reactive ability (Rift's version of Revenge) that is off the GCD and can be used immediately when it's available, without interrupting another ability

* One damage reduction cooldown
* One full heal
* Two AOE ability that also heals us
* One single target taunt
* One AOE taunt
* One single-target attack power reduction ability (think single-target Demo Shout)
* One AOE DoT that is optional
* One interrupt

Half as long a list, and more engaging and dynamic (IMO, of course) than WoW's whack-a-mole tanking style (although not as mobile without using a strange build).

I don't like that. It's not about being "faceroll" it's about having way too many things that you could do and have to watch for, when the list could be taken down to a much more manageable chunk. Even in Mists, I found myself using all 24 default bars just for CORE abilities, and that doesn't sit well with me for ANY class in ANY game.

[Gatsu]

You could make a list like that for ANY class in THIS game, it's not a warrior "problem". And the list even grows when talking about PvP and Arenas with macros.
It's how WoW works, they are not gonna change it.

[shadowkras]

Let's compare this to Warriors in Rift, although they are a pretty different beast (much closer to Prot Paladins due to the "attack points" system):

Yeah... Your post lost all credibility the moment you compared wow's macro system with rift's. Honestly, on rift you can macro every single ability on the same macro. Rift has 4-5 abilities per class that work the exact same way, which causes a lot of redundancy.
Its like adding 4 versions of heroic strike, an attack that deals 150% weapon damage and costs 30 rage.
I will stop for the sake of not turning this into a mmo vs mmo thread.

[Flaks]

Yeah... Your post lost all credibility the moment you compared wow's macro system with rift's. Honestly, on rift you can macro every single ability on the same macro. Rift has 4-5 abilities per class that work the exact same way, which causes a lot of redundancy.
Its like adding 4 versions of heroic strike, an attack that deals 150% weapon damage and costs 30 rage.
I will stop for the sake of not turning this into a mmo vs mmo thread.

And then you realize that for all intents and purposes we DO have 4 heroic strikes. Which is another dumb thing. Whereas other classes have two damage abilities that do a ton of damage, we have 4 abilities to push out that same amount of damage. And with a full 1.5 second gcd to top it all off. It worked pretty damn well when we had mortal strike and overpower as our only real attacks with heroic strike as our rage burner/hard core pressure button which would be on next attack (WotLK pretty much). Now, OP, MS and HS have nothing differentiating them besides damage modifiers.

[Gatsu]

And then you realize that for all intents and purposes we DO have 4 heroic strikes. Which is another dumb thing. Whereas other classes have two damage abilities that do a ton of damage, we have 4 abilities to push out that same amount of damage. And with a full 1.5 second gcd to top it all off. It worked pretty damn well when we had mortal strike and overpower as our only real attacks with heroic strike as our rage burner/hard core pressure button which would be on next attack (WotLK pretty much). Now, OP, MS and HS have nothing differentiating them besides damage modifiers.

How can people still compare HS with our other attacks? It's off the GCD, it's a complete different mechanic.
And yes, OP and MS do damage, but MS also applies a healing debuff, OP is a proc and can be used after a dodge. They are different.

[shadowkras]

Now, OP, MS and HS have nothing differentiating them besides damage modifiers.

Different cooldowns, different mechanics behind them (mortal strike refreshing and triggering other abilities).

If you want to turn all oranges red, then 90% of rotation abilities are the exact same ability with different modifiers.