1. #1

    New Recoil *re-worked*

    Recoil reworked - Your successful normal attacks restore up to 3 energy per second, based on weapon speed. While dual wielding, this energy is halved.

    from the front page




    So does this mean we as brewmasters can either dual wield tank or use a Staff?

  2. #2
    Brewmasters anyway could wear a staff or dual wield, but in case of tank priority they should to choose weapon with a large value tankish stats like: stamina, agility, mastery (as a second stat), imo.

  3. #3
    I address this in the guide. Considering that it says "successful attacks", that means we're going to need hit for this to be efficient, which means that staves and polearms are going to be more useful, since it takes less hit to get to hit cap for those weapons compared to dual wielding. Even if we're not at hit cap, we're still going to get a larger percentage of hits compared to dual wielding.

    At least, that's the theory anyway.

  4. #4
    Immortal Soisoisoi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    7,407
    No doubt the off-hand doesn't do any damage either, like with a Blood DK?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    No doubt the off-hand doesn't do any damage either, like with a Blood DK?
    Basically. I think you need... 21 or 27% hit to get to white hit cap for your offhand weapon. It's something pretty high.

  6. #6
    Immortal Soisoisoi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    7,407
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Basically. I think you need... 21 or 27% hit to get to white hit cap for your offhand weapon. It's something pretty high.
    Too much. I really wish they would just not allow Blood DKs and Brewmasters (assuming they don't fix it to make it work) to dual wield, because no doubt we're going to get a lot of people who do just because they can, and make everyone else make up for their slack. :< But that's not really on topic so...

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    Too much. I really wish they would just not allow Blood DKs and Brewmasters (assuming they don't fix it to make it work) to dual wield, because no doubt we're going to get a lot of people who do just because they can, and make everyone else make up for their slack. :< But that's not really on topic so...
    It could possibly be more viable at later gear levels, but I don't think anyone who is going to take stats seriously is going to do it. It'll be fine for shits and giggles old content runs, I dare say though. How viable dual wielding will be will ultimately depend on what has more mastery, I think.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    362
    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    No doubt the off-hand doesn't do any damage either, like with a Blood DK?
    As far as I know, it's not that simple. The DK, just like the warrior (and others), have attacks that are based on weapon damage (they specifically say "deals X% of your weapon damage") so unless they have a skill that apply the damage to the OH (Threat of Thassarian for the DK), they only hit with the MH as you said.

    The Monk, however, is supposed to hit with fists and feet. So they "hide" the fact that weapons' DPS actually modifie the power of the attack. However that's still the case and abilities hit for the same amount regardless of your weapon and the fact that you're either dual-wielding, either "2H-ing" (for the same ilvl, of course ^^). That's why, I assume, abilities seem way more complicated, and require (drivers) where those of other class don't, on the database.




    However, as mentionned above, the fact that DW autoattack miss much more may favor the 2H (which was already ahead due to better stats). Unless they take that in account, don't know.

  9. #9
    Legendary! Gallahadd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Beyond the 1% barrier.
    Posts
    6,491
    tbh it seems to me like they're trying to tool monk so that it doesn't actually MATTER what weapon you're using.

    Note that all moves hit with both main and offhand, plus due to Way of the Monk (40% damage when DW, 40% AtS when 2h) damage between DW and 2h will be pretty even, add in that white attacks are basically only there for damage, and it wont really matter for a tank, as 90% of our threat will come from yellow attacks anyway (which are 8% hit, regardless of weapon).

    I'll probably still rock the staff, just because it looks badass, but if I found a nice fist weapon set... I'd totally take it.
    Reading A Song of Ice and Fire is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere, shoots the puppy and punches you in the face.

    Stands in front of 100 enemies with 10% health left "Myeh, I'll save my potions for when I REALLY need them." - every rpg player ever.

  10. #10
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Indiana, USA
    Posts
    12,917
    Base stats should be better with a 2handed weapon, but assuming they keep up the trend of not specializing 2hand/1hand weapon enchants... getting 2 enchants like Colossus or Flowing River. Yes please.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    362
    As these enchants are PPM, weapon doesn't matter actually. The real "problem" for now, in my opinion, is that as you said : 2H stats > 2 x (1H stats). :-/

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgl View Post
    As these enchants are PPM, weapon doesn't matter actually. The real "problem" for now, in my opinion, is that as you said : 2H stats > 2 x (1H stats). :-/
    As I've stated in another thread, DW'ing as a Brewmaster can allow you to use *both* tank enchants, instead of just one (the dodge *and* the absorb enchants). Unless, of course, something is done to discourage/disallow this.

    PPM or not, do you want 1 tank proc, or 2?

  13. #13
    Legendary! Gallahadd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Beyond the 1% barrier.
    Posts
    6,491
    as cool as that would be Spazzeh, they'll probably do something lame like have them share a CD, so you can only get one proc per ICD

    as for the stat thing... maybe they'll fix it in MoP
    Reading A Song of Ice and Fire is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere, shoots the puppy and punches you in the face.

    Stands in front of 100 enemies with 10% health left "Myeh, I'll save my potions for when I REALLY need them." - every rpg player ever.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    As I've stated in another thread, DW'ing as a Brewmaster can allow you to use *both* tank enchants, instead of just one (the dodge *and* the absorb enchants). Unless, of course, something is done to discourage/disallow this.

    PPM or not, do you want 1 tank proc, or 2?
    Also currently enchants like landslide will give you a separate buff per hand, with the effects stacking.

    I suspect the absorb enchant won't stack, but absorb/dodge or 2xdodge should proc per hand and stack.

  15. #15
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    362
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    As I've stated in another thread, DW'ing as a Brewmaster can allow you to use *both* tank enchants, instead of just one (the dodge *and* the absorb enchants). Unless, of course, something is done to discourage/disallow this.

    PPM or not, do you want 1 tank proc, or 2?
    I'm not 100% sure but I think you're wrong with "PPM or not". The thing is, with PPM, you'll have Uptime(proc on a 2H) = 2 x Uptime(proc on 1H) basically. This would be slightly untrue if on the 1H you'd use the same enchant but here, that's not the case. And as there will certainly be an proc more suited to us, you'll end up loosing survivability using having both.
    I see the appeal, but I'm pretty sure it's a misconception.

    So my point is : 2H have better stats and not less enchant uptime, with one that is more optimal for us (whichever it is between Colossus or Flowing River).


    Edit : By the way, aren't we also overlooking the Windsong enchant http://www.wowdb.com/items/74723 ? If it proc on the higher stat it's worth comparing it to the other. Of course, if it's a random one it's useless. (And if they want it to be DPS exclusive, they might make it random.)
    Last edited by Yorgl; 2012-05-04 at 06:20 AM.

  16. #16
    If it stays like this, dual-wielding will result in a 27% increase in dual-wielding energy. This assumes that you use two 2.6 speed weapons (which is probably all that will be available) and have the special hit cap (8%), but not the dual-wield hit cap (27%).

    I would imagine this increase in energy is an attempt to keep damage similar, but it will probably also make us more survivable. I don't see why anyone would want to use anything except dual wield as tanking. If threat is a problem, you could always start with a 2h and then swap to the two 1h with more survivability.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Xaru View Post
    If it stays like this, dual-wielding will result in a 27% increase in dual-wielding energy. This assumes that you use two 2.6 speed weapons (which is probably all that will be available) and have the special hit cap (8%), but not the dual-wield hit cap (27%).

    I would imagine this increase in energy is an attempt to keep damage similar, but it will probably also make us more survivable. I don't see why anyone would want to use anything except dual wield as tanking. If threat is a problem, you could always start with a 2h and then swap to the two 1h with more survivability.
    Uh.. no no no no.
    Assuming special hit cap and ignoring dodges and parries, that have little influence on the 2H/DW comparison, a 2H weapon theorically generates 3 energy/second based on the tooltip. (10.8 per hit). A DW weapon theorically generates 1.5 energy/second based on the tooltip. (3.9 energy per hit), and you have 2 of them, back to 3 energy/second.

    The 2H weapon will have a 100% chance to trigger while the DW weapon will have a 81% chance. Hence 2H generates 23.5% more energy than DW.

    It's kinda funny, because it's extremely similar to DKs and the new Scent of Blood.
    If you start adding dodges and parries into it, then 2H gains an even bigger edge (simply because 85/66 > 100/81, assuming 7.5% chance to parry and dodge)
    (And if you start adding parryhaste into the equation, which only affects the mainhand while dual-wielding iirc, it gives a 2H a slighty bigger edge.)

    The thing is, with PPM, you'll have Uptime(proc on a 2H) = 2 x Uptime(proc on 1H) basically.
    Not sure if you understand that the whole point of a PPM is that weapon speed unaffects its results outside of special abilities.

    Assuming a 5 PPM proc, a 2H (3.6) swing has a 30% chance to proc it while a DW swing (2.6) will have a 21.6% chance. This means white hits have the exact same probability of proccing it in any given interval (yes, yes, I know. no playing on words), hence the term procs per minute instead of proc chance.
    Now if you start adding the DW getting more misses and potential dodges/misses, 2H gains an edge, just like explained previously for Recoil, but what gives 2H a lot bigger edge is the additional of special abilities. Their number is usually unaffected by the swapping of weapons, yet abilities with a 2H have a bigger chance to proc it.

    Over a minute, assuming 5 PPM and 1 ability per GCD (1.5s GCD, since GCD capping for 1s GCD classes is non-existent.) :
    - a 2H does 16.6666 white hits and filled 40 GCDs with abilities. That's 56.666 occurrences of an event having a 30% chance to happen.
    - DW does 23.07 white hits, which goes down to 18.7 white hits when consdering the DW hit cap, and filled 40 GCDs with abilities. That's 58.7 occurences of an event having a 21.6% chance to happen, so barely more occurences for a proc rate roughly 33% smaller.

    That being said, overriding of procs makes the gap smaller when considering buff uptime instead of simple proc occurrence, and reduces the gap in uptime between 2H and DW. The duration of the buff will make up for different difference in uptime. Generally, the smaller the duration, the wider the gap. (if you proc more, the average amount of seconds added by a proc is reduced, for fairly obvious reasons - you had a higher chance to already have it up when it procs.). To get back to DK examples, a DW frost DK roughly has 75% uptime on Fallen Crusader on average while only using it on one hand.

    Either way, we're nowhere near having a x2 relation between the number of procs, let alone the resulting uptime of the buff. Usually these enchants can stack independently of the hands (like Mongoose/Berserking etc.), resulting in much higher potential DW wise stacking the same enchant.

    Back to the discussion, yeah, maybe the enchant thing offesets for the slight energy loss. I don't think it does though it'll be close. Considering the early stage development of the class and of enchants as well, it seems a bit early to try and math anything, but intuition would dictate that both are viable, unlike DKs. Damage should be the exact same given the Monk formulas, and I can't really think of any offsetting survivability difference between both. There *will* be a winner (there's always one) but the result should be fairly close in any case.
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2012-05-06 at 07:47 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •