[Megathread] Elder Scrolls Online

[Tabbycat]

So, imma change the subject. I wanna talk Elder Scrolls lore. While this isn't specifically about ESO, I figured I'd post it here since this is the most active Elder Scrolls thread.

TL;DR I don't believe the 9 Divines or the Daedric Princes are worthy of being worshiped or even called gods.

There's a reason I hold that opinion. Okay, first off, I need to provide some context, because none of this will make sense if you don't understand the creation of the Elder Scrolls universe. So I'm gonna tell the creation story real fast. At the beginning of time, there were only 3 beings, these were known collectively as the Primordial Deities. They are Anu, Sithis and Nirn. Anu and Sithis are brothers. Nirn was the female of the group. Sithis loved Nirn, but she didn't love him back. So Sithis went away for awhile wandering the vast nothingness of the universe. During this time, Anu and Nirn fell in love. Upon returning, Sithis saw Anu and Nirn together, so he waited until Anu left. As soon as Anu was out of sight, Sithis beat Nirn in a rage and killed her. Anu then returned and saw Sithis standing over Nirn's dead body. They fought, and the blood that they shed became the gods that we know in the Elder Scrolls series. The Daedric Princes are the blood of Sithis, and the Aedra were the mixed blood of Anu and Sithis. Their battle was the equivalent of the Big Bang, creating all of the physical matter of the Elder Scrolls universe, and all of the various dimensions such as Oblivion and Aetherius. Their battle finally ended when Anu pulled himself and Sithis outside time forever. Only Sithis was ever heard from again to my knowledge, and only in a very limited capacity as the god figure of the Dark Brotherhood.

With Anu and Sithis gone and Nirn dead, it was up to the Aedra and Daedra to decide what to do next with the universe. An Aedra named Lorkhan got the idea to turn Nirn's body into a planet, and to create mortal life on it, as a tribute to her. 8 Aedra, the ones we now know as the 8 Divines, agreed to help Lorkhan. What Lorkhan didn't tell them, is that this act would rob them of much of their power. Lorkhan also had to give his life in the creation of the planets. Because of this deception, Lorkhan is often portrayed as a trickster and betrayer, but without him life would not exist.

This brings me to my point. First off, the 9 Divines. They're not really gods. They're just drops of blood from the real gods that used to inhabit the universe. They're children by comparison, children that demand worship. They're literally like kids with an ant farm. They treat mortals like pets and they do far less than they could to help us out. They didn't even want us once they found out it would take a sacrifice on their part, and afterwards they painted our true creator as a monster. They simply let the mortals wage war against each other constantly, (the conflict between the Empire and the Thalmor in the fourth era was done entirely in their name, by both sides) and they don't intervene or even seem to care. We worship those that don't want us and let us kill each other in their name. The only one of their kind that ever showed benevolence towards us was Lorkhan.

The Daedra are just as bad. Of course the evil Daedra like Molag Bal are bad and everyone knows it, but even the so called good Daedra aren't much better. Azura for example, she has the audacity to call herself God, quote from Morrowind when speaking to the Neravarine, "Take this thing from the hand of God". Much like the Divines, she demands worship without having done anything to earn it, while essentially lying by calling herself a god. More damning for Azura is the company she keeps. Her, along with Boethiah and Mephala are known as the True Tribunal, the gods of the Dunmer. Freaking Mephala! For anyone that doesn't know, she's the one that made the Ebony Blade, the sword that gets stronger when you use it to kill your friends... "Good" Daedra, right. At least with Mehrunes Dagon I know where I stand. In my opinion, to so called good Daedra are just as bad or worse with their deceptions.

So, in my opinion, the only being that is actually a god and has the benevolence to deserve being worshiped as such is Anu. As far as I'm concerned, Anu is the one true god of Elder Scrolls.

In ESO it is only Eight Divines because Tiber Septim (Talos) has not even been born yet. And yes, we have discussed in length on the official forums why, if Tiber Septim isn't born yet, Cyrodiil is not a jungle. The official answer is "Transcription Error".

As for my Dunmer character, she will be worshiping the Tribunal. Rather naive of her, I'm sure, but it is part of who she is as a Dunmer.

The ending of the words is Almsivi.

[Maelle]

Are there any official forums for the game, a quick google search and a scan of the TESO site didn't bring up anything that seemed to fit that bill...

[Tabbycat]

Are there any official forums for the game, a quick google search and a scan of the TESO site didn't bring up anything that seemed to fit that bill...

The temporary official forums are here: http://forums.bethsoft.com/forum/190...al-discussion/

[Pachycrocuta]

Bah beleive what you will, My nord will still rever Talos and Shor and my Breton will stay crazy with the mad-god :P

I am going to guess you are talking about your Skyrim characters? Because it will be rather tough to revere Talos when he hasn't been born yet.

[Maelle]

The temporary official forums are here: http://forums.bethsoft.com/forum/190...al-discussion/

Thankyou

[Throren]

I am going to guess you are talking about your Skyrim characters? Because it will be rather tough to revere Talos when he hasn't been born yet.

I'm well aware. My nord in TESO will revere Shor as all nords of that time should. My skyrim nord is a talos worshiper though :P

[SirRobin]

Early wow had less variety than games even on the market at the time, certainly less than swtor did. You can say cataclysm wow had more variety and that's fine but early wow was almost exclusively kill and collect. Star Wars had some escorts, it had a couple of turret quests. Early wow had the charm of being sorta new and epic but really their wasn't variety at all. It was a massive slog of doing the same crap with virtually no variation and even worse just plain grinding on mobs.

Not exactly. You are again lumping leveling and endgame together when I consider them separate. I found a good deal of variety, on the leveling curve, with the zone options in early WoW. Something TOR was, and I suspect ESO will be, significantly lacking in.

[Deleted]

Not exactly. You are again lumping leveling and endgame together when I consider them separate. I found a good deal of variety, on the leveling curve, with the zone options in early WoW. Something TOR was, and I suspect ESO will be, significantly lacking in.

What do you base that assumption on?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong as I, like you, have no possible way of knowing yet. But I am interrested in hearing what led you to that theory =)

[SirRobin]

What do you base that assumption on?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong as I, like you, have no possible way of knowing yet. But I am interrested in hearing what led you to that theory =)

Oh its nothing NDA breaking or anything along those lines. Its entirely my personal opinion based off the feel I got from reading the early articles surrounding ESO. Initially my curiosity was peaked and then the more I read, the more I got the same feeling I got from early articles about TOR.

I could be completely wrong and certainly hope that I am.

[Sunseeker]

Probably won't have WoW combat. If it does it ain't elder scrolls

According to the fact sheet, it has WoW combat, which sadly turned me off.

I read over the early information list and I can only say I'm seriously uninterested. Hope it turns out good for the rest of ya.

[Pachycrocuta]

I'm well aware. My nord in TESO will revere Shor as all nords of that time should. My skyrim nord is a talos worshiper though :P

Makes sense. I figured you were speaking of your Skyrim nord when speaking of Talos, just wanted to make sure. Because I know some people would do that with their ESO character.

@ smrund: How exactly does it have WoW combat?

[vizzle]

According to the fact sheet, it has WoW combat, which sadly turned me off.

I read over the early information list and I can only say I'm seriously uninterested. Hope it turns out good for the rest of ya.

Depends how early this information is that you're reading. The earliest announcements on this game do say it's WoW combat, but they changed it when people complained.

[Deleted]

Oh its nothing NDA breaking or anything along those lines. Its entirely my personal opinion based off the feel I got from reading the early articles surrounding ESO. Initially my curiosity was peaked and then the more I read, the more I got the same feeling I got from early articles about TOR.

I could be completely wrong and certainly hope that I am.

I was'nt assuming you were talking about any NDA breaking statements, I was just curious what led you to the theory in your previous statement. If I understand correctly, you're having a bad feeling from old articles? Could you link them so I can have a feel of the reason why they might be providing a bad feeling and try to understand the reasoning? =)

See, it's not that I'm trying to bully you, please don't feel that way, nor am I trying to call you out, but I'd like to know what led you to the assumption you reached. Which articles and why. You left a statement which is fine and all, but since we're in a discussion thread, it'd be fun if we could discuss that statement beyond just the statement and try to reach a conclusion to what led you to it. If you know what I mean? ^^

[Grogo]

Wow combat? What do you mean by that? Any other way and latency server issues would screw anything else no?

[SirRobin]

I was'nt assuming you were talking about any NDA breaking statements, I was just curious what led you to the theory in your previous statement. If I understand correctly, you're having a bad feeling from old articles? Could you link them so I can have a feel of the reason why they might be providing a bad feeling and try to understand the reasoning? =)

See, it's not that I'm trying to bully you, please don't feel that way, nor am I trying to call you out, but I'd like to know what led you to the assumption you reached. Which articles and why. You left a statement which is fine and all, but since we're in a discussion thread, it'd be fun if we could discuss that statement beyond just the statement and try to reach a conclusion to what led you to it. If you know what I mean? ^^

Oh no worries. Its a personal opinion thing. Wait one...

Ugh.. These were from around the time of the first gameplay vids...

Let me see if I can dig them up.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 11:33 AM ----------

Not finding the original article but here is highlights. Each faction having their own leveling content? Gives me the "one faction one path" shivers. Of course that wasn't that article itself so there is probably other stuff too but that is what springs to mind.

[Edge-]

Wow combat? What do you mean by that? Any other way and latency server issues would screw anything else no?

Latency issues can screw up WoW combat (try raiding with 500+ ping), it's just less pronounced during solo play because the risk while playing is so low with that type of combat system.

Provided you have an ISP from this decade and aren't connecting to a server thousands and thousands of miles away (Sorry APAC, you guys get screwed all the time on this and it sucks), latency shouldn't be an issue. Tera, Vindictus, Dragon Next, C9, and RaiderZ are all action combat games that function just fine with normal latency levels.

[wynterlyn]

It would definitely be a safer route if they went F2P with an aesthetic/convenience cash shop. Realize how pricey it is to even develop an MMO as is, so it would probably be more realistic to go F2P. . . .and I do hope it doesn't end up being tab targeting :c


Unless he can confirm a pay2win cash-shop. . .he can't prove on any grounds or coherent way that F2P is in any way bad (for both the company producing and managing the game and the community of gamers that are going to play the game)

Have you even tried TERA since its F2P model went live? I was forced into it by a couple of friends. The starting area was so crowded and the follow up areas chat were filled with spam and asian jokes. Well I ain't bother about the asian jokes, but that is what happens in most F2P games.

The only people that actually want it to be F2P are simply those that play numerous games at one time. When I played WoW, ages back, it was the only MMO I focused on. While I knew people that had an active subscription for WoW, SWTOR and Rift simultaneously.

That is simply the major factor determining their idea on TES being F2P. And even when I play other games, I don't take up 10-15 games at once and play them all at the same time. I've probably played max 2-3 games simultaneously.

So sure F2P isn't bad for the company depending on how they implement a cash shop but long run its terrible. Look at LoTR of late. They were lauded for their F2P design but its gotten worse since the last patch.

Like I firmly believe in business and everywhere else that people will come and will be willing to pay if the product is good. So that shouldn't change. Most current MMOs tend to go down the F2P or start with it cause they are so pessimistic before launching. They honestly don't even feel they can retain a strong player base. Its even wrong to compare the success of recent MMOs to something like WoW.

I mean WoW has been launched World Wide with a heavy reliance on the Asian subs. Most newer western MMOs first launch in the NA regions then move slowly to EU. They may never or take a while to launch in Asia.

[SamR]

Like many others who were playing MMOs at the time, I remember playing another MMO when WoW launched. I liked the Warcraft series well enough, but thought the whole idea of turning those games into a MMO was silly. Gnome warriors. Seriously? I played CoH at the time and we used to laugh at this MMO that Blizzard was launching aimed at kiddies. Rested bonus? Unlimited respecs?

It was the great word of mouth and a friend who finally convinced me to give WoW a try. Hype got WoW so far, but it was the insanely positive impression it made on players which caused WoW to blow up.

People act like the MMO landscape was barren in 2004. It wasn't. There were plenty of games around. WoW just blew all of them out of the water. AC2, EQ2, DAoC, CoH, EVE, SWG, Shadowbane, Lineage 2. It was a pretty crowded field. Attributing WoW's success and ability to kill off most of those games solely to luck and timing is silly.

WoW wasn't some random fluke. It was a MMO that was heads and shoulders above the current MMOs that were on the market when it launched.



Re: Quest design

I played both SWTOR and Rift when they launched and felt the quest design was somewhere around late vanilla/early TBC. Almost the entirety of quests in both games then were kill/loot/click quests. In SWTOR, the only quest I remember was the Inquisitor story quest where you enter a spirit realm. It was still a boring kill quest, but at least the environment was interesting. Made me think of all those cool interesting quests in DA:O and why Bioware couldn't have added something like that in SWTOR. For Rift, I remember the last quest of the noobie zone where you had to fight the big bad. That was pretty cool. I can't remember any other quests I did from 1 to 50 because everything was a blur of kill/collect/click quests.

By way of comparison, this quest was put into WoW years before either Rift or SWTOR launched and was more interesting and fun than any quest in either game at launch:

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=10639

And Wrath/Cata/MoP are quantum leaps in quest design compared to launch SWTOR and Rift quests.

[wynterlyn]

Hi, games are designed in specific ways. Rift is designed to get people to level 60 and get engaged in max level content. WoW is designed to do the same thing. SWTOR was apparently designed for people to level multiple characters and experience the max level content. By their own admission, and by their design decisions reinforcing playing alts as a legitimate and promoted way of playing, that means that you are "forced" to play them to experience the content. I'll put scare quotes around forced, as they aren't holding a gun to your head, but they are absolutely telling you that you're missing out on a big chunk of the game.

Well it isn't much difference with the Horde and Alliance in War. Its just not that transparent since you can explore everything but you have to do the quests for the other side to trule understand what is going on. And again no one is forcing you if you don't want to. Will I be fine simply doing the Ebonheart Side? Sure. You ain't missing out on anything.

Being "forced" to level alts is fine if there's the secondary content to support it. If you're not going to read my earlier posts, then I'll not bother with the keystrokes. I'll simply state that I've discussed this, at great length earlier in the thread. Up to you to read.



Really? People were excited, but it wasn't, "WOW SELLS 2139847129834 COPIES THEN DWINDLES IN PLAYERBASE!" It was the opposite. WoW sold very strongly, but grew because they delivered. People were hyped beforehand because you had one of the best developers in the industry (Warcraft, Diablo and Starcraft were all phenomenal series' with top notch gameplay that was at the top of their respective genre's) and had a proven track record of delivering good games, creating a MMO. Guess what? They delivered and the game subsequently exploded.

ZMO has zero titles under their belt, so I treat them as I treat all newcomers, with cautious optimism. I treated BioWare Austin the same way, and my opinion of them is extremely low now as I felt they've mishandled SWTOR on epic proportions.



Friendly reminder: Bethesda isn't making the game. ZeniMax Online is. They are working with Bethesda to make sure lore is correct ect. and probably getting tips, but Bethesda isn't actively involved in the development process as far as we know, so I wouldn't expect to see their "touch" on it.



Hi subjective opinions that aren't necessarily backed by any objective truth (beyond Skryim being on of the best reviewed games of the past decade, that I will concede). Warcraft was clearly popular enough to warrant a sequel, an expansion for the sequel, another sequel, and an expansion for that. If you're talking about WoW not being "mainstream" until WotLK, you're joking. That's when it was at its peak, but it had invaded pop culture in a way no other MMO had by the end of classic. By the end of BC it was pretty firmly embedded in pop culture in a way no other MMO, and few games, have been.



That's because it is. How much of the staff at ZMO come from Bethesda and the Elder Scrolls team? Curious, because I actually don't know and would love some info. Last I heard, it was MMO devs from elsewhere who were brought together for the studio. Similar to how BioWare Austin wasn't actually much BioWare staff, but rather MMO developers from around the industry (Specifically many of them from Mythic) who were hired to staff the studio. They weren't "BioWare" in the same way the team that worked on Mass Effect was.

Just because ZeniMax owns Bethesda, doesn't mean everything ZeniMax creates is "Bethesda". They also own id, who are about as far from Bethesda as you can get. If they were to create "id Funtime Mobile" and hire a brand new team, that would hardly be considered "id" proper.

I have no doubt, as I mentioned earlier, that Bethesda is advising them on the game. However we have no confirmation, that I've seen, of how closely they are working together beyond an acknowledgement that they are assisting with the story to ensure consistency. That's great and all, but that will hardly determine gameplay elements for the game.



Really? How limited were they? I'm curious, because I haven't seen the licensing agreement and don't know if there even were any limitations beyond, "Don't do stupid shit". They seem to have quite a bit of liberty in how they handled the product, as long as they kept established facts consistent. ESO has similar restrictions. We know a ton about the Elder Scrolls universe, even if the game takes place thousands of years before/after existing games (similar to how SWTOR takes place during a unique time period in Star Wars), which means that they are limited in many similar ways.

They can't really just create a brand new race without having a ton of justification for it, because it would be assumed that later games would have mentioned this race had they existed. Just because they own the IP, doesn't mean they can do whatever they want with it. They're still constrained by the same limits that all established IP's are constrained by when it comes to what they can do within the universe.

I enjoyed your last sentence though, it reads like a quote from a studio head in a press release.

redit:



Cool story bro, enjoy limiting the appeal of the game and dramatically reducing the potential audience for the game. Surely subscription based games are better than F2P games. All 3 of them that are left (WoW, Rift, EVE), yup, those are the only good games. All F2P games are bad and it's a bad model and blah blah blah.

I'll be giving my money to other developers then. I'm sure they'll be happy to take it : )

redit x2:



Forgot this gem. What exactly does the welfare gear in WoW have to do with the quality of another game? It's up to other games to find ways to attract players. If welfare gear works, then they should take advantage of it if they want to pull players from WoW.

Blizzard isn't cheating, they're using smart design (evil genius) and their established status. That's smart business. If another MMO can't compete, tough cookies. Other MMO's haven't been able to compete on WoW's level so far, and that's fine. I still play many of them (TSW, Tera, Vindictus, GW2, EQ2, Champions Online, DCUO, Rift ect.) and find enjoyment in it.

It's up to "New MMO name here" to find something that WoW isn't delivering, or isn't delivering well enough, and to fill that role. Rift has filled it by delivering lighting quick content and features so far, affecting the rate at which WoW appears to be releasing content now (which is better for everyone). EVE carved out a niche for itself in the space-sandbox area. Other MMO's have found their own spot.

You can't cry, "Woe is me, the established market leader is too tough!" and expect any sympathy. This isn't day care. Nobody cared when Microsoft entered the MP3 player market years late with the Zune and ended up closing it down (which makes me sad as I love my Zune). They looked and Microsoft and said, "Tough shit, you made bad decisions."

Ok so you say that Blizzard had a good rep for games. Sure they probably did. But there has been a new team working on it since WTLK. And this has been confirmed. You can't deny that.

[Edge-]

Have you even tried TERA since its F2P model went live? I was forced into it by a couple of friends. The starting area was so crowded and the follow up areas chat were filled with spam and asian jokes. Well I ain't bother about the asian jokes, but that is what happens in most F2P games.

If you've been at the launch of any other MMO, the starting zones are equally as terrible. The only difference is that rather than Asian jokes, it's WoW bashing or some other random topic.

Rift, SWTOR, TSW (to a lesser extent), and Tera at its subscription launch were all identical in terms of how painful the starting zones were.