[Megathread] Elder Scrolls Online

[noahjam326]

I have no issues with the subscription models personally, in fact I'm currently paying one for an MMO. With that said I would like citations to the following arguments I've seen made in the last 2 pages. Citation other than "it's been proven, but I'm not going to be the one to prove it."

1. F2P/B2P ends up costing the consumer more than subscription.
2. F2P/B2P is an excuse to get free content.
3. F2P/B2P has a worse community than subscription MMO.
4. F2P/B2P business practices confuse the consumer & inhibit the game.

Most of these are directed at Ebonheart, as I've seen some really big claims with nothing to back them up. Using SWTOR is a great example that helps disprove many of these arguments. As restrictive as SWTOR's F2P model is, it's also one of the few MMO's that lets you purchase your way out of these restrictions with in-game currency. The laundry list of drawbacks can all be bought out. I would also argue that it's easier to do so in SWTOR than in other games that allow you to purchase store unlocks with in-game currency. I currently have a subscription to SWTOR because I enjoy the game enough and don't want to have to jump through those hoops, although I know how to do it. I know I'm paying more by a subscription, but it's such a small difference that it doesn't harm me financially and I feel I'm getting my money's worth.

I would like to further segway into another point. Many MMO's are now also using what's called the F2P Hybrid model. The keyword being hybrid. The hybrid is that you can continue to pay a subscription and bypass all of the F2P elements, or you can pick and choose your content. You have the option. This is probably the hardest thing for me to swallow when I see discussions like these. I 100% agree that some F2P models really shove it in your face, and it is really annoying trying to navigate through the system. But that argument is completely nullified when subscription is an option. Isn't it better the game support all walks of life? People of all financial levels? That's why I think the hybrid model is the best and I don't see the excuse not to offer both. It's all about choice. You can subscribe and all of the hoops listed disappear and cease to be an issue.

1. I have yet to see proof that F2P ends up costing the consumer more. This is from both personal experience and the lack of an actual citation proving otherwise.
2. F2P/B2P games are not only making a profit, but are making content updates regularly. So it's not just freeloaders by definition.
3. Unfounded. Subjective and nothing has been provided to quantify this as a fact.
4. Completely nullified by a hybrid model, but if the game doesn't support one then a legitimate argument can be made.

[Bigtimmy]

I have no issues with the subscription models personally, in fact I'm currently paying one for an MMO. With that said I would like citations to the following arguments I've seen made in the last 2 pages. Citation other than "it's been proven, but I'm not going to be the one to prove it."

1. F2P/B2P ends up costing the consumer more than subscription.
2. F2P/B2P is an excuse to get free content.
3. F2P/B2P has a worse community than subscription MMO.
4. F2P/B2P business practices confuse the consumer & inhibit the game.

Most of these are directed at Ebonheart, as I've seen some really big claims with nothing to back them up. Using SWTOR is a great example that helps disprove many of these arguments. As restrictive as SWTOR's F2P model is, it's also one of the few MMO's that lets you purchase your way out of these restrictions with in-game currency. The laundry list of drawbacks can all be bought out. I would also argue that it's easier to do so in SWTOR than in other games that allow you to purchase store unlocks with in-game currency. I currently have a subscription to SWTOR because I enjoy the game enough and don't want to have to jump through those hoops, although I know how to do it. I know I'm paying more by a subscription, but it's such a small difference that it doesn't harm me financially and I feel I'm getting my money's worth.

I would like to further segway into another point. Many MMO's are now also using what's called the F2P Hybrid model. The keyword being hybrid. The hybrid is that you can continue to pay a subscription and bypass all of the F2P elements, or you can pick and choose your content. You have the option. This is probably the hardest thing for me to swallow when I see discussions like these. I 100% agree that some F2P models really shove it in your face, and it is really annoying trying to navigate through the system. But that argument is completely nullified when subscription is an option. Isn't it better the game support all walks of life? People of all financial levels? That's why I think the hybrid model is the best and I don't see the excuse not to offer both. It's all about choice. You can subscribe and all of the hoops listed disappear and cease to be an issue.

1. I have yet to see proof that F2P ends up costing the consumer more. This is from both personal experience and the lack of an actual citation proving otherwise.
2. F2P/B2P games are not only making a profit, but are making content updates regularly. So it's not just freeloaders by definition.
3. Unfounded. Subjective and nothing has been provided to quantify this as a fact.
4. Completely nullified by a hybrid model, but if the game doesn't support one then a legitimate argument can be made.

Essentially, you must understand that you cannot use reason to convince someone who did not use reason to arrive at whatever opposing conclusion they have reached.

I agree with you and appreciate your effort, however.

With regard to Ebonheart... I don't currently have the energy to formulate a proper retort, but honestly, you guys are taking a guy named Ebonheart seriously? A guy whose account is named after one of the 3 factions available to players in ESO, and whose account was created within a month of ESO beta signups? A guy whose every forum post reads as if it were transparent propaganda typed by the ill-formed progeny of a Zenimax executive?

[noahjam326]

While his arguments still require citation, he said them in a reasonable & thought out way. I see no reason to not retort in similar kind. There's no problem with simply asking for clarification beyond conjecture.

[Bigtimmy]

While his arguments still require citation, he said them in a reasonable & thought out way. I see no reason to not retort in similar kind. There's no problem with simply asking for clarification beyond conjecture.

I have no desire for this to spiral into a philosophical tangent, but the appearance of "reasonableness" in the absence of an actual depth of understanding of the subject at hand, and especially without "citation" as you put it, is just an example of people falling victim to empty rhetoric.

[corebit]

Really? I guess that means everyone's debating points about the bushiness model is just a clever ploy to not admitting we don't want to pay for multiple subscriptions...

This is an MMO forum. I am sure almost everyone here has an active MMO or two and are playing it actively (most likely WoW, but also others). It's natural to want any new MMO to be F2P/B2P, since let's face it, everyone here is a gaming nerd, and will want to experience as many cool games as possible.

Not saying debating the business model is a bad thing, but this back-and-forth is getting nowhere. The company has already decided on the payment options. This has added nothing but clutter up this and Wildstar's thread and prevent discussion of the actual game (surprisingly no one is raising this same shit in the FFXIV thread, another sub MMO).

There should be a payment model megathread or something because this conversation is getting redundant in multiple MMO threads, and nothing to do with the actual game.

Just saying as someone who is following the new MMO threads (deciding on which one to play).

[vizzle]

This is an MMO forum. I am sure almost everyone here has an active MMO or two and are playing it actively (most likely WoW, but also others). It's natural to want any new MMO to be F2P/B2P, since let's face it, everyone here is a gaming nerd, and will want to experience as many cool games as possible.

Noooooooope.

I don't even know if I want to play TESO. I just like thinking about these situations, implications of scenario A, B, C. Good food for thought, brain fodder. Payment model megathread wouldn't work because the situation is different with each game.What they offer, if the model is justified, if it isn't.

[RoninaThorstone]

Noooooooope.

I don't even know if I want to play TESO. I just like thinking about these situations, implications of scenario A, B, C. Good food for thought, brain fodder. Payment model megathread wouldn't work because the situation is different with each game.What they offer, if the model is justified, if it isn't.

So true.

Would B2P work for NWO? Hell no.
Would it work for TESO? Probably better than any other model.

[Iseeyou]

This is an MMO forum. I am sure almost everyone here has an active MMO or two and are playing it actively (most likely WoW, but also others). It's natural to want any new MMO to be F2P/B2P, since let's face it, everyone here is a gaming nerd, and will want to experience as many cool games as possible.

Not saying debating the business model is a bad thing, but this back-and-forth is getting nowhere. The company has already decided on the payment options. This has added nothing but clutter up this and Wildstar's thread and prevent discussion of the actual game (surprisingly no one is raising this same shit in the FFXIV thread, another sub MMO).

There should be a payment model megathread or something because this conversation is getting redundant in multiple MMO threads, and nothing to do with the actual game.

Just saying as someone who is following the new MMO threads (deciding on which one to play).

Jesus first clever post i find here.

[Deleted]

That is actually a very good point. You should also mention that this game is also being made for the next gen consoles and I know that the market there will be big.

I am a TES fan and I would buy a single player game without a second thought. However I have serious doubts if I want to play the MMO even if it was free.

The reasons being ..

1) Is it really TES game or a common themepark WoW-clone thats holding your hand and shows you where to go and what to do with blinking arrows?
2) The graphics dont exactly look stellar and since it's a MMO, I doubt they allow modding either.
3) Skill bar
4) No first person or have they added it now? I haven't followed it for a while

[Vankrys]

there is a fully functional first person mode.

[Deleted]

i would like to play it but not with a subscription fee - no game in the world is worth this anymore

[ddsad2212]

Okay I held off commenting because this thread turned into people with two points of view. One was sub been the only valid way to ever do a mmo, the other saying mmos with a sub fee are stuck in the past and should have died off.

Ofc both are bullshit, there needs to be a lot of different business models, some F2p, some B2p and some sub fee's. However all need to be done correctly or they suck, for example B2p only really has Gw2 and while it does it decently, it would be better. F2p ofc can be nice but generally they fuck it up. Sub is impossible to mess up in general, however most sub games seem unable to ship good content at a decent pace. If I am paying every month, I damn well better be doing something different on a regular bases.

For me they need to release a plan on post launch content that will show us what they expect to release within the next 6 months to a year. If they have on average say a firelands level of content every month then I am 100% up for it. However if it is like wow and it takes 6 months for me to get new content, then I will do the same thing I did with wow and cancel my sub. If I am paying this much a month it damn well better be similar to a Dlc pack every month where I get 15 euro worth of content

[Zanag]

I am a TES fan and I would buy a single player game without a second thought. However I have serious doubts if I want to play the MMO even if it was free.

The reasons being ..

1) Is it really TES game or a common themepark WoW-clone thats holding your hand and shows you where to go and what to do with blinking arrows?
2) The graphics dont exactly look stellar and since it's a MMO, I doubt they allow modding either.
3) Skill bar
4) No first person or have they added it now? I haven't followed it for a while

1) If you talk to anyone who has played the game (I've talked to quite a few people who got to play the game at Quackcon) and they will tell you that it feels like a TES game to them. Sure they only got to play for 3 hours, but that was their impression. This game is no where close to being a WoW-clone. Basically the only thing they have in common is that they are both MMOs.

2) Again, talking to people who have played the game said the graphics were on par with Skyrim and looked fantastic. Yes, you can mod the game. If you are talking about textural or graphical modding then, no, they won't let you mod that. But, like I already said, a lot of people think the graphics look amazing in this game.

3) You know they couldn't do it like a regular TES game right (and by regular I mean Oblivion and Skyrim, because Morrowind did have a skill bar in it)? It's an MMO it won't let you pause just so you can switch your spells so you can use a new one.

4) They added first person with hands in like 3 months ago.

[Deleted]

1) If you talk to anyone who has played the game (I've talked to quite a few people who got to play the game at Quackcon) and they will tell you that it feels like a TES game to them. Sure they only got to play for 3 hours, but that was their impression. This game is no where close to being a WoW-clone. Basically the only thing they have in common is that they are both MMOs.

2) Again, talking to people who have played the game said the graphics were on par with Skyrim and looked fantastic. Yes, you can mod the game. If you are talking about textural or graphical modding then, no, they won't let you mod that. But, like I already said, a lot of people think the graphics look amazing in this game.

3) You know they couldn't do it like a regular TES game right (and by regular I mean Oblivion and Skyrim, because Morrowind did have a skill bar in it)? It's an MMO it won't let you pause just so you can switch your spells so you can use a new one.

4) They added first person with hands in like 3 months ago.

Wow, Im intrigued. My main problems with it were 1 and 4.. I simply refuse to play a TES game in 3rd person other than maybe during raids when I need to give 100% but if that's fixed and they have proper 1st person now, then thats just fantastic. When I last read news about it (could have been 3 months ago), they said they werent planning to introduce 1st person at all because they wanted players to have better view of the surroundings or some such so I stopped following it.

[RenegadeXan]

Could we talk about the game for a minute and stop talking of Cash shop? Let's wait to see what its really about before going 'WAWWAWAWA' I want to play every games for free.

[vizzle]

Could we talk about the game for a minute and stop talking of Cash shop? Let's wait to see what its really about before going 'WAWWAWAWA' I want to play every games for free.

Do you want to talk about LackOfInfoA or NDAInfoB?

[Kickbuttmario]

1) If you talk to anyone who has played the game (I've talked to quite a few people who got to play the game at Quackcon) and they will tell you that it feels like a TES game to them. Sure they only got to play for 3 hours, but that was their impression. This game is no where close to being a WoW-clone. Basically the only thing they have in common is that they are both MMOs.

2) Again, talking to people who have played the game said the graphics were on par with Skyrim and looked fantastic. Yes, you can mod the game. If you are talking about textural or graphical modding then, no, they won't let you mod that. But, like I already said, a lot of people think the graphics look amazing in this game.

3) You know they couldn't do it like a regular TES game right (and by regular I mean Oblivion and Skyrim, because Morrowind did have a skill bar in it)? It's an MMO it won't let you pause just so you can switch your spells so you can use a new one.

4) They added first person with hands in like 3 months ago.

Then I guess the only thing people are pissed off about is just the price, but I am very sure a lot of people are going to buy this either way just to try it out. Besides, its an elder scrolls game that has different mechanics to wow, so it should be justified.

[3vyan]

Do you want to talk about LackOfInfoA or NDAInfoB?

You made me smile !

Happy to see it feels like a TES game and there is a third person option.
Too bad you can't mod graphics.

[Lemmiwink]

Graphic mods will probably be available just like in BF3, WoW etc. Full addon support is probably the smartest thing about it though. What do all of the WoW-killers have in common? No addon support. Now there is 2 confirmed big games with addon support, that alone should be enough to keep a healthy subscriber base. I also think most raid guilds will require you to play third person for the raids so I see first person as a solo thing for me personally.

[Edge-]

Graphic mods will probably be available just like in BF3, WoW etc.

What graphical mods does WoW have? >.>

Redit: Actually, the same goes for BF3. I remember the devs specifically commenting about how they'd ban people who removed the blue filter from the game while playing online because they viewed it as "hacking".

What do all of the WoW-killers have in common? No addon support.

While I loathe the term "WoW killer" (since it's a stupid fucking term that fans made up out of stupidity), this has as much value as the following statement: "What do all of the WoW-killers have in common? They're not WoW!"

Also, EQ2 has addon support, as does Rift, TSW and a few other games. Not necessarily to the extent WoW does, but addons are hardly a make or break feature for MMO's.

ow there is 2 confirmed big games with addon support, that alone should be enough to keep a healthy subscriber base.

Again, I don't see how addons would make the actual gameplay or content any better than not having addons. Seriously, does having a cool custom unit frame make the game that much more enjoyable?