Glyph of the Necromancer (Minor glyph)

[arboachg]

Here's a post I made over on the MoP beta boards and figured I'd bring the discussion here as well.


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I was talking to a warlock friend the other day about the minor glyph Death Knights get to change their ghoul into a geist (http://www.wowdb.com/items/43535-glyph-of-the-geist) and we got to thinking, "Why not add an Affliction only glyph to make the spec feel more like its Necromancer roots?"

I figure that there's two potential ways this can be done:

1. Simply swap the default warlock pet (Imp/Voidwalker/Succubus/Felhunter/Infernal/Doomguard) models with, say, a caster skeleton (Imp), armored skeleton (Voidwalker), the Rattlegore style skeleton (Succubus), Banshee (Felhunter), Abomination (Infernal), and a Nerubian caster (Doomguard) and changing nothing mechanically (they're still demons, they still do their respective damage types, etc).

or

2. Change the models along with some mechanic changes to better fit the appearance, such as:

* Rattlegore style pet casting Trance/Hypnotize instead of "Seduce"
* Banshee using "Shadow Touch" instead of "Shadow Bite"
* Abomination using "Plague Cloud" instead of "Demonic Immolation" (Doing nature or shadow instead of fire)
* Making these demon pets undead instead (shackle instead of banish) This is a case where this can become tricky.

I think this would be a neat way of making Affliction feel more like the Necromancer it was apparently suppose to be without actually making a new class and one of the best ways I could figure to not completely step on Death Knight's toes.

[procyan]

If you have undead, it would remove the demonic feel of the class, and compete with DKs for undead things. Warlocks and necromancers are pretty different in the warcraft universe.

[arboachg]

Thing is though, Affliction always felt more like a Necromancer (with its life draining and cursing abilities) than a "Warcraft" Warlock (Destruction Warlocks are the closest to that type) anyway.

[checking facts]

than they'd have to also take the fire spells and turn them into frost spells and turn enslave demon into "enslave undead" (a spell DKs already have") and much more if they were to replicate warcraft's necromancers.

I think the best to do would be to add a necromancer spec to DKs if one day blizz decides that "every class should have 4 specs". perhaps next expansion lol

[xskarma]

Yeah, sorry but we're demonologists at heart, not necromancers. I would feel VERY out of place if they made this change for Affliction, even if I didn't have to use it. The possibility of Blizz thinking that we should be able to do this would not sit well with me. As has been pointed out, DK's got the necromancer parts, not us, I vote we let them keep those parts.

[arboachg]

Affliction isn't a demonologist though.

[Adramalech]

Affliction isn't a demonologist though.

Even though I have nothing against your suggestion and it would be a neat thing, I have to agree that indeed, the "Warlocks" from Warcraft aren't really some kind of necromancer-like casters. No, not even affliction with their curse and drain style.

Ever since their inception in WoW, warlocks have always been related to demonology, regardless of being "demonology specced" by game mechanics or not. They do have their similarities with necromancers, but having a few things in common doesn't make them a candidate at actually BEING necromancers. The closest we have to a necromancer as a playable class is the death knight, and even those only practice a bit of necromancy, compared to that of an actual necromancer. Affliction, even though it has a few similarities, is not close enough to have such a "conversion". At least, not in my opinion.

[Deleted]

Demonic curses and drains are not necromancy, the only link Affliction has to necromancy is they both use magic from the shadow school, but an Affliction warlock does not spread diseases, plagues and raises the dead. I'ts slighty possible but imo its far too much of a long shot, Blizzard wants Warlocks to focus on demons and Death Knights undead.

[deviantcultist]

If Warlocks were to get alternative models for demons, it should be faceless ones/old god minions. So comes the twilight/purple element about.

[Kilma]

I like the idea... it would fit with how blizzard kinda folded Demon Hunters into the Demonology Spec.

[Rezarel]

If you have undead, it would remove the demonic feel of the class, and compete with DKs for undead things. Warlocks and necromancers are pretty different in the warcraft universe.

Maybe, if Affliction wasn't basically a necromancer to begin with.

than they'd have to also take the fire spells and turn them into frost spells and turn enslave demon into "enslave undead" (a spell DKs already have") and much more if they were to replicate warcraft's necromancers.

I think the best to do would be to add a necromancer spec to DKs if one day blizz decides that "every class should have 4 specs". perhaps next expansion lol

Not a single thing you said would need to be done. The op is simply suggesting that Affliction (only affliction) get a glyph that changes our pets to undead models, purely cosmetic. Would changing fire to frost and everything else you said help? Yes, obviously, but that's asking far too much and no one expects that.

Yeah, sorry but we're demonologists at heart, not necromancers. I would feel VERY out of place if they made this change for Affliction, even if I didn't have to use it. The possibility of Blizz thinking that we should be able to do this would not sit well with me. As has been pointed out, DK's got the necromancer parts, not us, I vote we let them keep those parts.

Warcraft warlocks are not demonologists. While all specs do have demon pets (in WoW), that is only because Blizz wanted us to be a pet class.

Demonic curses and drains are not necromancy, the only link Affliction has to necromancy is they both use magic from the shadow school, but an Affliction warlock does not spread diseases, plagues and raises the dead. I'ts slighty possible but imo its far too much of a long shot, Blizzard wants Warlocks to focus on demons and Death Knights undead.

Our curses are not "demonic", and drains (life and soul) and very necomancer-esque; as are curses. Affliction shares many things in common with a necromancer: Drains, curses, shadow magic, soul shards (you can't tell me that doesn't scream Necromancer), Haunt ("ghostly soul"). Even their general theme fits a necromancer class to a tee. Debuffs, debilitation, DoTs.

If Warlocks were to get alternative models for demons, it should be faceless ones/old god minions. So comes the twilight/purple element about.

Why exactly? Warlocks have absolutely nothing to do with Old Gods. Nothing.


Blizz has stated that a Necromancer class was to be in vanilla, but they scrapped it because it was "to similar to Warlocks." It's pretty obvious that some of their ideas spilled over to Affliction.

[Voidgazer]

Never gonna happen. Blizzard already decided to incorporate a necrophiliac class as Death Knight. It is already strongly associated with all matters related to summoning and controlling undead.

Personally I'd like to see for affliction warlocks stronger bonds with the Old Gods and all kinds of Lovecraftians horrors, corruption and so on. A man can dream.

[Dahak]

Warcraft warlocks are not demonologists. While all specs do have demon pets (in WoW), that is only because Blizz wanted us to be a pet class.


Our curses are not "demonic", and drains (life and soul) and very necomancer-esque; as are curses. Affliction shares many things in common with a necromancer: Drains, curses, shadow magic, soul shards (you can't tell me that doesn't scream Necromancer), Haunt ("ghostly soul"). Even their general theme fits a necromancer class to a tee. Debuffs, debilitation, DoTs.

Except... the curses are demonic, they're fueled by Fel energy. Soul-stealing is far more warlock-esque than necromancer (since most necromancers, by definition, deal with what's left after the soul has vacated the premises). Of all those arguments, only "Haunt" holds water. Admittedly, it holds quite a lot of water, but if any class should be considered "necromantic" other than Deathknights, it would probably be Shadow Priests... and even that's stretching it a bit.

[Rezarel]

No where does it say that Curses are fueled by fel magic. The concept of Curses can be put into a plethora of categories, but they aren't "demonic" by default.

So are you trying to say Necromancers don't kill things to manipulate their souls/corpses/etc? Must they wait for something to die at the hand of another before claiming their soul?

And finally, Shadow Priests? I hope you're joking. In what way do they even remotely resemble Necromancers (especially over Affliction)? The only thing I can think of is Devouring Plague; other than that SPriests deal with a target's mind, not the dead/souls/etc.

[Dahak]

No where does it say that Curses are fueled by fel magic. The concept of Curses can be put into a plethora of categories, but they aren't "demonic" by default.

Where? Well, originally in the class description on the website. That's been removed in favour of simpler explanations, but still exists in wowpedia (linked directly from the warlock page on the main site):"Warlocks are former arcanists, or in the case of the orcs, former shamans, who, in pursuit of ever-greater sources of power, have cast off their studies of the arcane or nature magics to delve deeper into the darker, fel-based magic of shadow. "

Other official sources include Rise of the Horde, where it's specifically stated.

So are you trying to say Necromancers don't kill things to manipulate their souls/corpses/etc? Must they wait for something to die at the hand of another before claiming their soul?

Impressive straw-man statement - no, I'm not trying to say that at all. I'm trying to say that a necromancer (or death mage) specializes in animating the dead to fight for them. I'm sure your average necromancer doesn't mind where those dead come from, but warlocks have always been about capturing the souls of those they kill as demonic sacrifice for their spells (source: pre-cataclysm WOW). If they can't get that, they lifetap, using their own life energy as the sacrifice. (Description of lore based on pre-cataclysm game mechanics and descriptions).

And finally, Shadow Priests? I hope you're joking. In what way do they even remotely resemble Necromancers (especially over Affliction)? The only thing I can think of is Devouring Plague; other than that SPriests deal with a target's mind, not the dead/souls/etc.

Well, they raise the dead to fight for them. That's one necromantic thing they have over warlocks. Yes, it's a stretch, but no more than saying that affliction has dots and drains, but does nothing with the dead, so must be necromancers. If warlocks are like anything else, it would be Blood Mages.

[Deleted]

Why exactly? Warlocks have absolutely nothing to do with Old Gods. Nothing.

So you didn't read the Legacy of the masters then where the Elf and the Gnome go off to "persuade" Twilight's Hammer Cultists to spill the beans on Old God magic?

Apparently so.

[arboachg]

Except... the curses are demonic, they're fueled by Fel energy. Soul-stealing is far more warlock-esque than necromancer (since most necromancers, by definition, deal with what's left after the soul has vacated the premises). Of all those arguments, only "Haunt" holds water. Admittedly, it holds quite a lot of water, but if any class should be considered "necromantic" other than Deathknights, it would probably be Shadow Priests... and even that's stretching it a bit.

In exactly which way can you say, with certainty, that "curses are demonic", "fueled by Fel energy", and "Soul-stealing is far more warlock-esque"? You need a better example than most use, which typically is "Affliction has always had demon pets, so there!"

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 02:03 AM ----------

Where? Well, originally in the class description on the website. That's been removed in favour of simpler explanations, but still exists in wowpedia (linked directly from the warlock page on the main site):"Warlocks are former arcanists, or in the case of the orcs, former shamans, who, in pursuit of ever-greater sources of power, have cast off their studies of the arcane or nature magics to delve deeper into the darker, fel-based magic of shadow. "

Seems like a bit of a stretch to say that "casting off there studies of the arcane or nature magics to delve deeper into the darker, fel-based magic of shadow" has to include all "curses" simply due to Affliction using them and coincidentally being considered a Warlock by current game mechanics. Destruction Warlocks have always far been closer to the traditional Warcraft definition of "Warlock" than Affliction has, considering its clear and obvious Necromantic roots.

[Ulthlian]

Sorry for bad English, but I can't miss this discussion.
Nathrezim is the first necromancers. In the War of the Ancients they use fel power to animate dead night elves. Creation of the army of the dead (the Scourge) was their idea. The Lich King was their "prisoner". I think that necromancy and fel magic have the same roots. =)

[Deleted]

Sorry for bad English, but I can't miss this discussion.
Nathrezim is the first necromancers. In the War of the Ancients they use fel power to animate dead night elves. Creation of the army of the dead (the Scourge) was their idea. The Lich King was their "prisoner". I think that necromancy and fel magic have the same roots. =)

Necromancy is raising the dead through shadow/necrotic magic.
Fel Magic is magic either empowered by demonic energy, or the magic that the demons themselves use.

By that logic, all magic has the same roots, but you don't see an arcanist being compared to a demonologist, because the schools of magic have become so diverse.

@OP - No. Warlocks use Demonic Magic, not Necrotic Energy-fueled Shadow magic.

[Ulthlian]

Necromancy is raising the dead through shadow/necrotic magic.
Fel Magic is magic either empowered by demonic energy, or the magic that the demons themselves use.

So Nathrezim aren't demons at all? They are the masters of necromantic arts. Scourge was controlled by Tychondrius before he was killed by Illidan.

By that logic, all magic has the same roots, but you don't see an arcanist being compared to a demonologist, because the schools of magic have become so diverse.

Yes, exactly. Fel magic is the most corrupted state of the arcane energy. Kel'Thuzad was a mage, but become a necromancer. Orcish necrolytes use the fel to raise the dead, for example. Magic schools not so different.