New Glyph of Frostfire bolt

[Callace]

Does the new smaller cast-time from the glyph allow for a competitive FFB nuke?

Any thoughts?

[Meillassoux]

Does the new smaller cast-time from the glyph allow for a competitive FFB nuke?

Any thoughts?

I think the point of the glyph is using it instead of Fireball and make it better in pvp as well.

[Callace]

I think the point of the glyph is using it instead of Fireball and make it better in pvp as well.

Ok, cool, what about replacing it with frostbolt? Do you think that would work with frost? I love the animation! I'd like to use it as my primary nuke and maintain optimal dps.

[Swizzle]

The glyph makes FFB's cast time the same as Fireball...while costing you a glyph slot. And no, FFB will not replace FrB as a main nuke...look at the mechanics of Frost, they all revolve around FrB and FFB is simply a proc.

[Callace]

The glyph makes FFB's cast time the same as Fireball...while costing you a glyph slot. And no, FFB will not replace FrB as a main nuke...look at the mechanics of Frost, they all revolve around FrB and FFB is simply a proc.

I've double checked and it seems that all of the mechanics also revolve around FFB now as well. FFB procs itself, it also procs icelance now. There isn't any reason I'm aware of to use FrB unless you want the extra glyph.

[Deleted]

I've double checked and it seems that all of the mechanics also revolve around FFB now as well. FFB procs itself, it also procs icelance now. There isn't any reason I'm aware of to use FrB unless you want the extra glyph.

The talentcalculator says icelance only procs of frostbolt and frozen orb.

[Callace]

The talentcalculator says icelance only procs of frostbolt and frozen orb.

No longer true. This is live from the Beta from my spellbook 5 seconds ago:

"Your Successful Frostbolts and Frostfire Bolts and Frozen Orb hits have a 12% chance...to grant you the Fingers of Frost Effect."

FFB is an optional Nuke now.

[Swizzle]

No longer true. This is live from the Beta from my spellbook 5 seconds ago:

"Your Successful Frostbolts and Frostfire Bolts and Frozen Orb hits have a 12% chance...to grant you the Fingers of Frost Effect."

FFB is an optional Nuke now.

Just because FFB can proc FoF does not mean it's an optional nuke...there's more to Frost than fishing FoF procs. Let's analyze!!!

First off, FFB is 0.7 seconds longer than FrB, while the glyph only reduces that by 0.5. FrB will be 0.2 seconds faster than FFB at all times and only deals 241 less damage. Let's say that FrB is a 2 second cast and FFB is therefore a 2.2 second cast. Every 20 seconds, you will get one more FrB than you would FFB.

Further, if you use FFB as a main nuke, you will be missing out on a glyph slot. Personally, I can't see myself dropping Evocation or Inferno Blast, so that means I have to choose between IL cleave, a stronger pet, and other goodies JUST to deal less damage than I would have been doing without the glyph.

You can make the argument that FFB can replace FB for Fire, but you cannot make the argument that it will replace FrB for Frost.

[Stache]

Ahhem...

Shatter Passive
Doubles the critical strike chance of all your spells against frozen targets plus an additional 40%, and increases the damage done by Frostbolt against frozen targets by 20%.

[gutnbrg]

Just because FFB can proc FoF does not mean it's an optional nuke...there's more to Frost than fishing FoF procs. Let's analyze!!!

First off, FFB is 0.7 seconds longer than FrB, while the glyph only reduces that by 0.5. FrB will be 0.2 seconds faster than FFB at all times and only deals 241 less damage. Let's say that FrB is a 2 second cast and FFB is therefore a 2.2 second cast. Every 20 seconds, you will get one more FrB than you would FFB.

Further, if you use FFB as a main nuke, you will be missing out on a glyph slot. Personally, I can't see myself dropping Evocation or Inferno Blast, so that means I have to choose between IL cleave, a stronger pet, and other goodies JUST to deal less damage than I would have been doing without the glyph.

You can make the argument that FFB can replace FB for Fire, but you cannot make the argument that it will replace FrB for Frost.

yea but you'll also do more dmg with ffb, in those 20secs...

[Callace]

Ahhem...

Shatter Passive
Doubles the critical strike chance of all your spells against frozen targets plus an additional 40%, and increases the damage done by Frostbolt against frozen targets by 20%.

Frozen targets => Icelance



Correct me if I'm wrong.

---------- Post added 2012-05-14 at 03:06 AM ----------

Just because FFB can proc FoF does not mean it's an optional nuke...there's more to Frost than fishing FoF procs. Let's analyze!!!

First off, FFB is 0.7 seconds longer than FrB, while the glyph only reduces that by 0.5. FrB will be 0.2 seconds faster than FFB at all times and only deals 241 less damage. Let's say that FrB is a 2 second cast and FFB is therefore a 2.2 second cast. Every 20 seconds, you will get one more FrB than you would FFB.

Further, if you use FFB as a main nuke, you will be missing out on a glyph slot. Personally, I can't see myself dropping Evocation or Inferno Blast, so that means I have to choose between IL cleave, a stronger pet, and other goodies JUST to deal less damage than I would have been doing without the glyph.

You can make the argument that FFB can replace FB for Fire, but you cannot make the argument that it will replace FrB for Frost.

I think that 241 extra damage will even things out after both have been buffed by the applicable stats and whatnot and multiplied by 20ish.

[Swizzle]

yea but you'll also do more dmg with ffb, in those 20secs...

FFB damage in those 20 seconds: 208,989
FrB damage in those 20 seconds: 229,800

So no, you won't be doing more damage with FFB in those 20 seconds, you'll be doing less.

---------- Post added 2012-05-14 at 05:20 AM ----------

I think that 241 extra damage will even things out after both have been buffed by the applicable stats and whatnot and multiplied by 20ish.

Not really, the numbers were taken directly from my level 88 Frost specced Mage (22,980 damage for FrB and 23,221 damage for FFB). FFB has to deal 2,600 more damage than FrB assuming the same difference in cast time to only deal 400 more damage than FrB over a span of 20 seconds. With no gear on and only 224 spellpower, FFB deals 332 more damage than FrB. With the gap growing smaller as gear improves, indicating an either identical or near identical in favor of FrB coefficient, FFB will never deal enough damage to make up for the difference in cast time lost.

[Callace]

FFB damage in those 20 seconds: 208,989
FrB damage in those 20 seconds: 229,800

So no, you won't be doing more damage with FFB in those 20 seconds, you'll be doing less.

---------- Post added 2012-05-14 at 05:20 AM ----------



Not really, the numbers were taken directly from my level 88 Frost specced Mage (22,980 damage for FrB and 23,221 damage for FFB). FFB has to deal 2,600 more damage than FrB assuming the same difference in cast time to only deal 400 more damage than FrB over a span of 20 seconds. With no gear on and only 224 spellpower, FFB deals 332 more damage than FrB. With the gap growing smaller as gear improves, indicating an either identical or near identical in favor of FrB coefficient, FFB will never deal enough damage to make up for the difference in cast time lost.

You have crushed my dreams.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

With the gap growing smaller as gear improves, indicating an either identical or near identical in favor of FrB coefficient, FFB will never deal enough damage to make up for the difference in cast time lost.

Yes. Frostbolt is 189.2% and FFB is 188.4% last I checked. Sorry guys, it doesn't work out for frost. Not optimally, anyway.

[Grimlair]

You have crushed my dreams.

Swizzle the Destroyer Of Dreams!.

[Deleted]

I kinda have to disagree with Swizzle, though I hear that can be a dangerous thing to do.

Just because FFB can proc FoF does not mean it's an optional nuke...

Unless saying optional was intended to be optimal, then yes, FFB is an optional nuke, you'd seemingly not lose any of the core mechanics of the spec, bar the shatter FrB passive. But it would still be possible to play the exact same way with FFB, than with FrB, just not as high numbers I guess, it wouldn't be optimal. But it sure as heck is an option if one woulld wish to play that way. And don't worry Callace, it jsut means tonight you can dream a new dream!

[Imnick]

A dream of doing slightly less DPS with a slightlier uglier spell? :P
I never really got the appeal of Frostfire Bolt! Frostbolt is a big spike of Ice, FFB feels like I am hurling a snowball made of neon mist.

[Pasture]

Further, if you use FFB as a main nuke, you will be missing out on a glyph slot. Personally, I can't see myself dropping Evocation or Inferno Blast, so that means I have to choose between IL cleave, a stronger pet, and other goodies JUST to deal less damage than I would have been doing without the glyph.

I don't know. Evocation glyph doesn't seem nearly as compelling as it once was. Between talent tiers 2, 4 and 6 mages of all specs have a lot of survivability options compared to what we have now. I can see me quite happily dropping the glyph. It's situational as it is. When presented with absorbs and heals with a much shorter cooldown the Evocation glpyh just seems unnecessary.

[Blessedeyes]

Guys, it is oversimplifying it to use a calculator and say frostbolt does x damage and frostfirebolt does y. you have to consider that the simpler spell rotation is going to make all of ur procs hit quicker and thus equalize or even exceed the apparent damage difference.

As for me, ill be using frostfire bolt with no frostbolt for dungeons/raids/large scale bg

and maybe frostbolt with the pet freeze for the shatter effect in smaller scale bg's.

with 5 different spells to cast based on what procs ur gonna do better damage with ffire in a dungeon or large scale bg scenario imo.

also, i cant imagine it wasnt blizzards intention to make it a viable alternative considering the goal of easier spell rot in the update.

well see what becomes the norm

[Swizzle]

Guys, it is oversimplifying it to use a calculator and say frostbolt does x damage and frostfirebolt does y. you have to consider that the simpler spell rotation is going to make all of ur procs hit quicker and thus equalize or even exceed the apparent damage difference.

As for me, ill be using frostfire bolt with no frostbolt for dungeons/raids/large scale bg

and maybe frostbolt with the pet freeze for the shatter effect in smaller scale bg's.

with 5 different spells to cast based on what procs ur gonna do better damage with ffire in a dungeon or large scale bg scenario imo.

also, i cant imagine it wasnt blizzards intention to make it a viable alternative considering the goal of easier spell rot in the update.

well see what becomes the norm

What? While I don't like thread necros in general...I have no idea what you mean. Blizzard didn't intend for you to do much lower DPS because...your reaction time is bad? I don't know, due to travel time, you're already casting a spell when BF procs, so you'll have the same time to hit FFB no matter what you're spamming so...I don't know.