How to solve Greece situation?

[oplawlz]

About the UK... i laugh when i read British saying they aren't European. Would love to see the UK economy go down, when they lose the European Free Market. Who are you gonna trade with? "We aren't European, we are special!" -- hilarious. Glad British politics dont act like a proud child and treat foreign politics as it should be. Oh and distance... Portugal has territory that is in the middle of the ocean and its European territory. Question: if distance from territory is important, who should rule the Falklands? Hehe

Economic dependency =/= residence. Unless you think the whole world is American, in which case I'll be waiting for your tax check.
I don't really care about the topic one way or the other, faulty logic just bothers me :P

OT The only aid the Greeks should be getting at this point is in imposing marshal law. Throwing tantrums and breaking stuff doesn't fix anything when you're 4 years old, and it won't fix anything now.

[Shadowmelded]

So much anger and hate spewing in this thread already. When it comes to threads about Greece MMO champ always disappoints. Electing nazi's? The nationalists got about 6% of the vote for christs sake. That's high for modern standards but come the fuck on.

In all honesty after the 1st bailout turned out to do nothing to solve the crisis it became fairly clear that the only solution is default. They are simply in too much trouble for a simple bailout to do anything. Austerity is just driving their economy further into recession (which they've been in for years now), meaning any hope of closing the deficit is completely misguided. Good luck increasing tax receipts when your economy is in such a shite state and informal work will run even more rampant than it did before.

I don't have very high hopes for the next Greek election. Even the anti-austerity parties seem to want to stay in the eurozone and simply take the bailouts without any austerity measures (which will obviously never happen). What needs to happen is a decently centrist party needs to come up with a plan for default and the rebuilding of the country. What will more likely happen is the Greeks will be driven to more extreme parties, as usually tends to happen in cases like these.

This is all that really needs to be said. Greece shouldn't have been allowed into the Eurozone in the first place but thanks to some book-cooking they were admitted. The sad reality is, Greece will more than likely default and should be allowed to, the other countries can't keep pouring money into a bottomless pit.

[Deleted]

Only when the Greek realize they have no other choice, than man up and pay their debts, a path to solution will be possible. Yeah sure... the government is corrupt, etc... its still the whole country that is on the line here! You can complain, riot, whatever... you still have to pay. And the sooner the Greek realize this, the faster/easier will be for them.

About the UK... i laugh when i read British saying they aren't European. Would love to see the UK economy go down, when they lose the European Free Market. Who are you gonna trade with? "We aren't European, we are special!" -- hilarious. Glad British politics dont act like a proud child and treat foreign politics as it should be. Oh and distance... Portugal has territory that is in the middle of the ocean and its European territory. Question: if distance from territory is important, who should rule the Falklands? Hehe

Oh yes. The Azores archipelago, located 930 miles West from European coast, between the USA and Europe.
Some of the Azoreans actually descent from French people, and once, one of its vulcanic islands, the Sabrina island (now underwater), was actually claimed by Cpt. James Tillard, for the British Empire, during the 19th century.

Falkland? I believe you were referring to the Malvinas islands there, Malbabo. (shameless provocation to the Brits)

[Well]

Being a Greek, I think that I can very well say how things actually are.

Let's clear some things out first:
(a) There is no way Greece is going to sell any island like some people are suggesting in this thread. Think of selling the ground upon which the home in which you lived in as a child gets selled for any price of my money. Personally, I would not accept someone else selling me his country's ground. I cannot bare the thought of taking something as holy from him/her for mere money. If our great goverment which has not been formed yet (we will get more elections in June, most likely) decides to sell something, I do not think that they will be able to. There will either get jailed or hanged in the streets.

(b) There is no actual crisis. What there actually is, is only the effects that one country (and that is, ANY country) would have if there was some real crisis. A crisis, by its very meaning cannot have anything to do with financial issues. Human Life and Human Quality of Life is above any amount of money (something that most people in our mordern universal society fail to understand: the us ministry of foreign affairs even had a price set for the human life @ approximately 3 million US dollars). As such, when you have to deal with whether you should drag out a human out of hunger versus spending any amount of money, the human always wins over the money. As a result, one cannot have a crisis in his finances which would have as an effect the worsening of one's quality of life or even actually of life (talking about suicides here). What actually is in crisis is our "political system", but that would be short-sighted to say. What is REALLY in crisis is the society, and NO, it has almost nothing to do with money, although it started from money. Greece, as a state, has a delay of 400-500 years in development because of the military occupation of the Ottomans. The Greek society in that time as you can imagine was been under a huge struggle, and thus adopted the way of the "groomsman" for up until now. The "groomsman" way is making sure that your child has a permament job (and not only) in the public sector by usually either devoting your election vote to a certain party or most likely a certain candidate. Thing is, that this system expanded too much, allowing the elected to steal taxes, bonuses from the EU and many many more. I really do not think that I need to remind you about the fake numbers from some years ago which concerned our actual income and expenditures. The people who wanted to "live their lives" as fancy as possible stole immense amounts of money from the state, presented fake numbers to the public and then passed them to the EU.

Now, where I want to conclude:

Greece has no actual need of help from the outside. The more others help, the more those that really want to "live their lives" will continue to suck up the money which tries to get into the public's palm. What I would ask from the countries and peoples (lotr reference ftw) outside of Greece though, is to try and make sure that no one dies or suicides because of that bubble moodies etc has put us into. Also, no hate. Your media are misinforming you so much in all countries, that my ears hurt when I decide to learn what your media are telling you. If you want to get a concrete view of Greece, speak with Greeks (and no, Greeks are not, by ANY means nazis. Golden Dawn is something foul. Germans very well know better than anyone else in the whole world how foul it is), do not turn on that TV, or radio or whatever.

It is apparent that certain companies are trying to create more countries in which they will be able to "hire" people without any rights, or reasonable salary. Do not let all that subtle hate that is being blown onto your eyes via media, small talk etc, cloud your vision about Greece and its people. Yes, there are douchebags, dumps, people who deserve hanging and shooting and then to be tied up to a chariot and get a full-fledged trip around the walls of Troy, or been thrown into Sparta's well, but these people are present in every country and most importantly are not Greek, English, French, German, F.Y.R.O.M., Bulgarian, Albanian, Turkish or anything else. They lack the ethical potential of belonging to their country. These people are the ones who deserve to be called all kind of names, and these people are the ones who own and direct the financial crap called moodies etc. Since when can anything threaten a country? Imagine your own country being given orders about what to do in X part of its politics. It is completely and utterly out of place.

Thanks for reading, wrote that up very quickly, might edit it later. Also, I really did not include everything I wanted to say.


Edit:

Ok, let's get something else right:

The election results of May 6th are:
(1st) New Democracy 18,85%. This party is an old party and one of the 2 parties which have been trading goverment positions over since after the last dictatorship. It is considered "right", wants to stay in the Eurozone, and also in the contract.
(2nd) SYRIZA 16.78%%. This party has been around for some years. It is considered to be balanced but mainly "left". It received a huge boost in the last elections, earning at least 12%. It is by NO means any close to being elitist. It is lightly left and is sadly been baptised by your media as elitist.
(3rd) PASOK 13.18%. This party is the other part of the 2 parties which was trading goverments with "New Democracy". It has also been in charge for the last years. Having dropped from 44% from the last elections, it has lost its identity. Normally, it's supposed to be a socialist party, but its actions directly cancel its beliefs out.
(4th) KKE 8.48%. This party is the "Communist Party of Greece". Is has been around forever, been outlawed and then brought back to law again. It is a sturdy party and purely "left". More left than SYRIZA. WAY more left.
(5th) Golden Dawn 6.97%. This party are the nazis. Having received a very big amount of votes for a nazi party, it is now super happy for itself. There is already a war going on in Greece against this party. We've been from the countries which suffered from Hitler greatly and it is very strange that his party has gotten so high of a percentage. (Strange aside from the fact that crises bring ethnicists forward).
(6th) Democratic Left 6.11%. This party is a left one, but not as left as KKE. It is newly shapen, and first participated in an election event at May 6th. It is hard to tell anything about this party, since time has not given his signs on it yet.

There is NO left elitist party in Greece which is currently in the House, or is seriously hoping to get into it. What you've been told is utter crap with only purpose to get you to hate us, and that is all.

[Deleted]

Summon Zeus

[Catta]

This is all that really needs to be said. Greece shouldn't have been allowed into the Eurozone in the first place but thanks to some book-cooking they were admitted. The sad reality is, Greece will more than likely default and should be allowed to, the other countries can't keep pouring money into a bottomless pit.

Greece can be allowed to default - if Italy does - we be fucked

[Deleted]

That should be up to the people that live there, guess who they chose?

Whats the opinion of most Brits?

[Deleted]

(b) There is no actual crisis. What there actually is, is only the effects that one country (and that is, ANY country) would have if there was some real crisis. A crisis, by its very meaning cannot have anything to do with financial issues. Human Life and Human Quality of Life is above any amount of money (something that most people in our mordern universal society fail to understand: the us ministry of foreign affairs even had a price set for the human life @ approximately 3 million US dollars). As such, when you have to deal with whether you should drag out a human out of hunger versus spending any amount of money, the human always wins over the money. As a result, one cannot have a crisis in his finances which would have as an effect the worsening of one's quality of life or even actually of life (talking about suicides here). What actually is in crisis is our "political system", but that would be short-sighted to say. What is REALLY in crisis is the society, and NO, it has almost nothing to do with money, although it started from money. Greece, as a state, has a delay of 400-500 years in development because of the military occupation of the Ottomans. The Greek society in that time as you can imagine was been under a huge struggle, and thus adopted the way of the "groomsman" for up until now. The "groomsman" way is making sure that your child has a permament job (and not only) in the public sector by usually either devoting your election vote to a certain party or most likely a certain candidate. Thing is, that this system expanded too much, allowing the elected to steal taxes, bonuses from the EU and many many more. I really do not think that I need to remind you about the fake numbers from some years ago which concerned our actual income and expenditures. The people who wanted to "live their lifes" as fancy as possible stole immense amounts of money from the state, presented fake numbers to the public and then passed them to the EU.

But the thing is one has to always bear in mind cost-benefit analysis, cost effectiveness etc when you're running a country. Even the most left wing country on Earth economically has to manage how it spends its money, because money is limited. That's why it's generally accepted that if you want to spend more, you tax more to pay for it. Undeniably Greece does not have an adequate system of collecting taxes. It's only part of the issue of course.

Ultimately even if it isn't nice there always has to be a point where spending say 1 billion dollars to extend one persons life by 6 months is simply not feasible. Any public health service worth its salt has to decide which drugs to allow, which not to allow, because they all cost money and they all have a certain effect. Some are cost effective and some aren't cost effective enough, the budget is limited so choices have to be made. It might hurt a few people but it simply has to happen. To allow everyone to have everything you get a massive debt crisis in the end, which does not end well for anybody.

In the long term it is for the good of everyone for the government to try to run a surplus during the boom years, so that when a recession hits it's in an ample position to stimulate the economy. It simply isn't sustainable to run a deficit the whole time. In the long term it causes issues such as this, where the economy in Greece is so bad that people are committing suicide.

It's not fair to blame your current state on the Ottomans or any oppressive regime people have lived under. There are countries that have developed from nothing to either a semi-developed or developed country within 30-40 years. It happens and it's not impossible. Not to mention using such a big number as 400 years is wrong because modern capitalism is nowhere near that old in the 1st place.

[galimim]

I think that the real problem is that Greece is not being saved. What they are actually saving are German and French banks. If all the money that has been pumped in to Greece made it to the people, then everyone would be a millionaire. Now they give money to Greece so they can pay it back to the banks and the real benefactors of all this are German and French economy.

[Deleted]

Whats the opinion of most Brits?

We consider the Falkands a distance cousin, don't know them too well but they are still family.

[Deleted]

Economic dependency =/= residence. Unless you think the whole world is American, in which case I'll be waiting for your tax check.
I don't really care about the topic one way or the other, faulty logic just bothers me :P

UK is already located in European continent. That isn't even up for debate. So when people say "European", we aren't even talking about residence. We are talking about being a part of the EU. And that is economical definition. I have no idea why you mention America... im European lol

---------- Post added 2012-05-13 at 09:01 PM ----------

We consider the Falkands a distance cousin, don't know them too well but they are still family.

Right. So an island on the other side of the ocean, is family. But the UK that is linked to European mainland by a tunnel, isn't Europe. Gotcha.

[Authary]

Your media are misinforming you so much in all countries, that my ears hurt when I decide to learn what your media are telling you. If you want to get a concrete view of Greece, speak with Greeks (and no, Greeks are not, by ANY means nazis. Golden Dawn is something foul. Germans very well know better than anyone else in the whole world how foul it is), do not turn on that TV, or radio or whatever.

Hi !

So what about the fact we have to bribe and produce false documents in order to get electricity installed in our house ? That's not TV saying the country is corrupted, it's a concrete view.

And what about the various "special methods" we were advised to use to get subventions from the union for our olive groves ? You know, those methods everyone use. To get money. From the EU. Money they couldn't get without lying. I'm pretty sure our neighbours/lawyers/notary are not TVs. At least they seem pretty human to me.

It's way too easy saying big evil corporations have insanely convoluted plans to make you their slaves and use your bodies as food for the next generation of lizard-people they want to replace you with because they lack the intellect to actually rebel against their demonic masters. What I see (really see, not on my TV) is a country that tried to cheat and got caught.

If you want to solve your problems, start by kicking your protesters out of your country. Or put them in jail or something.

[Deleted]

UK is already located in European continent. That isn't even up for debate. So when people say "European", we aren't even talking about residence. We are talking about being a part of the EU. And that is economical definition. I have no idea why you mention America... im European lol

---------- Post added 2012-05-13 at 09:01 PM ----------



Right. So an island on the other side of the ocean, is family. But the UK that is linked to European mainland by a tunnel, isn't Europe. Gotcha.

We built that tunnel ourselves, it is not naturally occurring you know. And the Falklands have considered themselves part of the commonwealth for hundreds of years, so damn right they are family.

[Deleted]

Im English but I also am a European. I believe in the EU,but I do not believe in the Euro however.

[Deleted]

We built that tunnel ourselves, it is not naturally occurring you know. And the Falklands have considered themselves part of the commonwealth for hundreds of years, so damn right they are family.

Apparently i didn't explain my point well enough and i apologise. I was referring to those that say the UK isn't European because its far from Europe (no idea if you were one of them and i wont go back to check. Thats beside the point). The distance between Europe mainland and the UK, is probably 1% of the distance between the UK and the Falklands. However, distance is only an important aspect, when it suits your opinion. Europe/UK are too far but when it comes to the Falklands, distance isn't important anymore.

Anyway... its a moot point. The Brits might not feel like they are European; truth is they are part of the European Continent and are, until they decide to leave, part of the European Union. /stopped derailing thread

[Deleted]

If you want to solve your problems, start by kicking your protesters out of your country. Or put them in jail or something.

So by your reasoning, the way to solve this crisis is to kick people out of their country, if they decide to protest...? To obligate them to silence and to deal with it?
So much about Democracy and freedom of speech.

You know what? I think the reason why Greek people are protesting (and voting on extreme left and right wing parties), is because they starting to disbelieve in democracy, when they lack food on the table, and to disbelieve in the 2 main democrat parties, which have been rotating in power for at least 30 years.

[Deleted]

How do you solve the Greece bankruptcy situation?

EU is trying to save them at all cost. However greek citizens are against any savings. How to solve it?

The greek people who let this happen in the first place, should stop trying to fight the people that want to help their country. I just feel that the EU should kick them out.

[Well]

snip

Firstly, I am not using the Ottomans as anything. I just let you know of why we are behind as a "state" in terms of structure, tax-collection, 55+y.o. mindset etc.

Secondly, there is obviously no denying that we need to get things sorted in the financial aspect.

Thirdly, you missed the whole point of well, the point: Let's take it one by one:

"1ml $ for 6 months of life": I was talking about hunger and poverty. Extending a dying patient's life has nothing to do with what I said. I was talking about healthy people who suffer only because of lack of money for their basic needs.

Greece has no problem with its experts. We are from the counties with the most people in highest education, who also get their degree. We have a problem with stealing from the people I mentioned. There are countless cases currently being investigated by the police, where the people responsible for the drug ordering, counting etc, order 4 times the drugs they need, when they have already got the previous package of drugs, and when those drugs are already in place and are also hidden away in some space outside of the hospital. THESE people are the ones I am talking about.

The whole crap EU is going about on how we "cannot manage our budgets" is exactly utter crap. We are not foolish or lack IQ. People have been stealing the state for years, and it finally hit a point where even EU could not ignore it any longer. That, along with the hungry "markets" which suddenly have the right to threated whole countries had lead to where Greece stands now, and that is all.

Ok now? :P

[Authary]

So by your reasoning, the way to solve this crisis is to kick people out of their country, if they decide to protest...? To obligate them to silence and to deal with it?
So much about Democracy and freedom of speech.

You know what? I think the reason why Greek people are protesting (and voting on extreme left and right wing parties), is because they starting to disbelieve in democracy, when they lack food on the table, and to disbelieve in the 2 main democrat parties, which have been rotating in power for at least 30 years.

I can destroy my own house too. It's my right. Freedom of speech, Democracy, etc. It doesn't mean it's not completely moronic. If I do not live alone, the other people sharing my home should be well advised to kick me out and start repairing.

[Well]

Hi !

So what about the fact we have to bribe and produce false documents in order to get electricity installed in our house ? That's not TV saying the country is corrupted, it's a concrete view.

And what about the various "special methods" we were advised to use to get subventions from the union for our olive groves ? You know, those methods everyone use. To get money. From the EU. Money they couldn't get without lying. I'm pretty sure our neighbours/lawyers/notary are not TVs. At least they seem pretty human to me.

It's way too easy saying big evil corporations have insanely convoluted plans to make you their slaves and use your bodies as food for the next generation of lizard-people they want to replace you with because they lack the intellect to actually rebel against their demonic masters. What I see (really see, not on my TV) is a country that tried to cheat and got caught.

If you want to solve your problems, start by kicking your protesters out of your country. Or put them in jail or something.

I am sorry to say, but you not only miss my point, but you continue being blinded by media hatred:

There is no denying that people have stolen again and again and again. If anyone in ANY country thinks that at least SOME of its goverment members hasn't stolen SOMETHING, he is as naive as he or she can get.

If you think that my country (that is 11million people) all together plotted to steal your precious money, you are as pathetic as you can be. That is also way more naive than "blaming big corporations" which actually do exist, and do act based solely upon their profits.

Also, suggesting of kicking people who protest out is at the very least nazist. I will most likely never protest in the streets, but I will do the best in my ability to protect my country in any way I find honourable and right. What you suggest is completely moronic and facist.