Alternatives to capitalism?

[Catta]

An example:
A poor fisherman at the coast of africa enjoys life x10000 times better then any big corporation leader as long as the fisherman have enough food AND friends.
My point is that we need to get back to our roots and stop the consumtion lifestyles we have in west. You want to hear more about my ideas? Go to your local library and borrow any major writings on philosophy, look up and read about different writings done by Sokrates and Epikuros.Now you will get the idea on how people should live to be truely happy with their lifes.Thanks for reading!

And I enjoy my life x10000 times better than the poor fisherman who must struggle to survive. No place other than in the making of this strawman do you get to decide what makes people happy...

[Laize]

Well gold is quite rare and has several real uses which would make it even more insane to use it as a currency as while there are uses they are quite limited - IE spacecrafts and the likes

It's a strong thermal reflector. That's pretty much it.

[Catta]

It's a strong thermal reflector. That's pretty much it.

Its also a very good conductor and has medical uses as well though the price and volume makes it unsustainable in the long run

[Kasierith]

An example:
A poor fisherman at the coast of africa enjoys life x10000 times better then any big corporation leader as long as the fisherman have enough food AND friends.
My point is that we need to get back to our roots and stop the consumtion lifestyles we have in west. You want to hear more about my ideas? Go to your local library and borrow any major writings on philosophy, look up and read about different writings done by Sokrates and Epikuros.Now you will get the idea on how people should live to be truely happy with their lifes.Thanks for reading!

The essential problem with your argument is that happiness is ultimately subjective. I would not be happy in such a situation, and the progress of history since their time has shown that many, many people in various historical times agree with me. Just because they were the philosophical masters of their days and the highest geniuses of society doesn't mean that their right. You can look at their scientific theories to see that. While their words have strong value, not every single person has to agree with them.

Also, what would you say if I went to my library and found the works of someone like, say.. Bentham? Not all philosophical thought runs the same way

[Laize]

Its also a very good conductor and has medical uses as well though the price and volume makes it unsustainable in the long run

Silver is DEFINITELY a better electrical conductor and copper probably is too. Not sure what Medical uses gold has... I know silver is used in making antimicrobial glass... Not much else.

[Kasierith]

It's a strong thermal reflector. That's pretty much it.

Strong conductor, is very resistant to outside forces so it doesn't do things like rust or break down, is very malleable allowing it to be worked rather easily, can be melted down and then solidified easily... there are a number of reasons why gold is so valuable. Back when heirlooms were an extremely important part of society, having a metal that could be the same after 300 years was considered extremely valuable, even more so than its actual appearance

[Deleted]

..and some people will never get the idea what true happiness means. Maybe its the struggle and fight each day to catch those fish that makes hes life so good at the end of the day?

[Laize]

Strong conductor, is very resistant to outside forces so it doesn't do things like rust or break down, is very malleable allowing it to be worked rather easily, can be melted down and then solidified easily... there are a number of reasons why gold is so valuable. Back when heirlooms were an extremely important part of society, having a metal that could be the same after 300 years was considered extremely valuable, even more so than its actual appearance

Again, even copper is a better conductor and silver is much better.

I did forget that gold doesn't corrode. Makes it useful as an electrical contact. That's it.

[Kasierith]

..and some people will never get the idea what true happiness means. Maybe its the struggle and fight each day to catch those fish that makes hes life so good at the end of the day?

And that is wonderful for him, and even you. But again, many people in the world, including myself, would not be satisfied fishing every day.

Although... should I point out the irony of someone following a theory of immaterial happiness talking on a site initially inspired by a video game? If you see simplicity as being true happiness... you wouldn't be playing a video game

Again, even copper is a better conductor and silver is much better.

They're not as easy to work, though. Gold's extremely high malleability makes it easier to shift into highly sensitive electronic structures than copper or silver. So its best for the delicate, fine work

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Kasierith;16976620]And that is wonderful for him, and even you. But again, many people in the world, including myself, would not be satisfied fishing every day.

Although... should I point out the irony of someone following a theory of immaterial happiness talking on a site initially inspired by a video game? If you see simplicity as being true happiness... you wouldn't be playing a video game" ............as a mather of fact, playing a game might be a thing to escape reallity? escape the daily routins that you never find meaningfull?

[Laize]

And that is wonderful for him, and even you. But again, many people in the world, including myself, would not be satisfied fishing every day.

Although... should I point out the irony of someone following a theory of immaterial happiness talking on a site initially inspired by a video game? If you see simplicity as being true happiness... you wouldn't be playing a video game




They're not as easy to work, though. Gold's extremely high malleability makes it easier to shift into highly sensitive electronic structures than copper or silver. So its best for the delicate, fine work

And what work is that? The kind that involves printing circuit boards or the kind that involves transistors? I've seen gold used in prototyping but never in end consumer products beyond very small amounts such as electrical contacts.

[Deleted]

Here's an example of one of the things that have led to the recent crisis, featuring both communism and capitalism interacting...

One method of raising money which Governments use is to issue bonds. They essentially borrow money to fund things they want to spend money on NOW and issue bonds on which they pay interest for a period of time. The more stable the country, the more reliable for the lender who knows they will receive their interest. Therefore a greater demand. Law of supply and demand is that where supply > demand, prices go down.

Next, take China. Massive massive exporter throughout the world. Making the country seriously cash rich, as it imports very little. Communist country yes, but one rolling in cash. What to do with the cash - ah - buy Government bonds issued by other countries as this is a pretty safe way of lending, there is nothing else to spend the money on because it's not a capitalist country and so they buy as many bonds as possible.

So we have increased demand for bonds and the Governments issue more and more to keep the rate of interest they pay low. This leads to two things:

1. Governments borrow more and more money.

2. People lending Governments money suddently aren't getting as much as they used to. China don't care, they are making money on money and spending it on nothing. Western banks and other investors think 'oh shit' profits are falling we need to invent other ways of lending money to get better interest rates. This all led to the funky packaging of loans which were essentially steaming big piles of poo on which the banks charged massive interest rates to get their profits back up.


Number 2 went horribly wrong when people started realising these were big steaming piles of poo when surprise surprise noone repaid any loans.

And because of number 1, we are in trouble throughout the world...

[Kasierith]

And what work is that? The kind that involves printing circuit boards or the kind that involves transistors? I've seen gold used in prototyping but never in end consumer products beyond very small amounts such as electrical contacts.

Primarily from spacecraft and supercomputers, from what I've seen. I know a few people who work on such things that I could ask, but I myself don't know about the exact applications of gold apart from its importance in fine work, usually as a prototype before you have machinery that can do fine work with less malleable materials.

............as a mather of fact, playing a game might be a thing to escape reallity? escape the daily routins that you never find meaningfull?

You're mixing philosophies than. The fisherman is happy because of the substance of his work, because every fish he catches gives its own meaning that need not be supplemented by material possessions. He isn't magically happy.. its his work that gives him meaning.

[Laize]

Here's an example of one of the things that have led to the recent crisis, featuring both communism and capitalism interacting...

One method of raising money which Governments use is to issue bonds. They essentially borrow money to fund things they want to spend money on NOW and issue bonds on which they pay interest for a period of time. The more stable the country, the more reliable for the lender who knows they will receive their interest. Therefore a greater demand. Law of supply and demand is that where supply < demand, prices go down.

Next, take China. Massive massive exporter throughout the world. Making the country seriously cash rich, as it imports very little. Communist country yes, but one rolling in cash. What to do with the cash - ah - buy Government bonds issued by other countries as this is a pretty safe way of lending, there is nothing else to spend the money on because it's not a capitalist country and so they buy as many bonds as possible.

So we have increased demand for bonds = price drops. Therefore the rate of interest that Governments have to pay falls dramatically because more and more people want them. This leads to two things:

1. Governments borrow more and more money because it's cheap.

2. People lending Governments money suddently aren't getting as much as they used to. China don't care, they are making money on money and spending it on nothing. Western banks and other investors think 'oh shit' profits are falling we need to invent other ways of lending money to get better interest rates. This all led to the funky packaging of loans which were essentially steaming big piles of poo on which the banks charged massive interest rates to get their profits back up.


Number 2 went horribly wrong when people started realising these were big steaming piles of poo when surprise surprise noone repaid any loans.

And because of number 1, we are in trouble throughout the world...

I stopped reading because you think that when supply is less than demand, prices go down.

---------- Post added 2012-05-28 at 01:14 PM ----------

Primarily from spacecraft and supercomputers, from what I've seen. I know a few people who work on such things that I could ask, but I myself don't know about the exact applications of gold apart from its importance in fine work, usually as a prototype before you have machinery that can do fine work with less malleable materials.

So technically it's even less valuable than helium industrially. In fact I'd say helium is more valuable than either gold or silver, and far more rare (yes the shit you make balloons with).

[Deleted]

"You're mixing philosophies than"---As you said yourslef earlier,there aint no ONE philosophy that answer it all.
He is happy cause he eats the fish with hes family.

[Kasierith]

"You're mixing philosophies than"---As you said yourslef earlier,there aint no ONE philosophy that answer it all.
He is happy cause he eats the fish with hes family.

Yes, there are multiple thoughts. But attempting to encompass two at the same time, that are fundamentally different (Value in hard work vs value in detachment) really just plays to ethical subjectivity and essentially grounds down to utilitarianism, taking and picking what part of each philosophy makes you the happiest and using it for yourself. If he truly valued such detachment, he wouldn't care about his family overly. Also, are you saying that a fisherman must have a family to be happy? What do familial ties have to do with his work and place in life?

---------- Post added 2012-05-28 at 02:19 PM ----------

So technically it's even less valuable than helium industrially. In fact I'd say helium is more valuable than either gold or silver, and far more rare (yes the shit you make balloons with).

I'd hardly consider popsci to be a valuable news source.. but I do get what you're saying. And I am not arguing that gold is the end all be all best material when compared to others, I'm merely giving you examples of how it is used in things like science, and the reason why it has so much historical values. I can give you the positive aspects of something without needing to compare it to other things.

[Deleted]

First,i dont think you should hang up more about what i said earlier about Sokrates/Epikuros. I allready told you it was an example and a good way to understand that there are other ways of living a great life. So lets leave that now. Also, im saying that to have a happy life you need to have someone to share it with, either it be a family or friends. But focus this now instead: I (not you) belive that people/humans needs to re-consider what is truely value in their lifes. As we see in the western part of the world, psyhological illness is reaching new topresults every year, and what do we do? we give people drugs to keep them "happy". Any wise person can see that there is something wrong with the way we live our lifes. The consumption philosophy are out of time, and we need to understand the importance of taking care of our enviroment. Are we really "free" the way we live our lifes as for now? I think most people (not saying you do) would agree in some degree that we are not.

[Zecora]

Gold and silver has little to no inherent value either - if you want inherent value then its gonna be food stuff

Well, doesn't have to be gold, silver or anything like that. Could be fertile soil for that matter. Anything with an actual value beyond what is written on it. Is it the best solution? -Probably not, but the current situation is hardly ideal either.

[Laize]

Well, doesn't have to be gold, silver or anything like that. Could be fertile soil for that matter. Anything with an actual value beyond what is written on it. Is it the best solution? -Probably not, but the current situation is hardly ideal either.

A floating currency is the best solution. It allows the market to determine the value of our currency.

Commodity currencies are extremely vulnerable to systemic shock and they prevent their parent nation from enacting effective monetary policy that can heat up or cool off an economy as necessary.

[Deleted]

Gold actually costs money to hold... It's stupid as hell to hang onto... Not to mention industrially useless.

You're not Laize, you're Gordon Brown... that was his philosophy. Backfired somewhat didn't it....