[MoP] Inquisition Glyph

[kosechi]

i had no problem with this glyph. i was using it for leveling/casual pvp where HP gain isn't as regular. it should have stayed at 15% though. the real insult is having the damage increase dropped even more.

the fact that the slice and dice glyph didn't get this treatment, and rogues get the deadly momentum glyph is really stupid however.

[Talen]

That does in no way shape or form increase skill cap

And if you got rid of Inq, added Righteous Vengeance and....AT THE SAME TIME...attempted to increase the skill cap by expanding the toolkit available to Paladins instead of relying upon the maintenance of a short duration buff, would that work?

EJL

[Boogieknight]

Of course it wouldn't be. Prime glyphs were stated to be a free and clear, hands down boost to the ability it applied to. That was the point of adding the prime tier to the glyph system in the first place. Then majors would be used for benefits that had a less obvious effect, with minors being quality of life or cosmetic changes.

As it was stated in a blue-post (in both of the links I provided), they're removing primes, and for good reason. They're increasing the "situational" flavor of the major glyphs, and it would appear that minors are nearly all cosmetic effects in Mists.

I think they should leave primes in place and just retool the glyph mechanic to 1 prime, 2 major, and 3 minor. Make primes flat improvements and try to keep them relatively equal, make majors ability/spell cost reductions, and minors cosmetic.

Either that or just remove inscription completely. Removing relics and prime glyphs from the game in MoP along with making all the new glyphs cosmetic/situational almost trivializes the profession. Pulling it out might just give them the memory necessary to give me back my damned keyring.

[Elathi]

The thing with the Flame Shock (and Recklessness glyph, in some cases, unless my math is really bad, which I wouldn't doubt) glyph is, at least in pve, it seems to be theoretically, overall, a dps increase for anyone. Glyph of Inquisition only softens the suffering of a very inattentive Ret. Debatable whether allowing someone to use it once a minute rather than once every ~30 seconds would help train them to use it better (on that, curious as to why people say there's only nine levels it could be used for, as if we stop learning at 90). As mentioned, though, I'd suspect those that don't do well keeping it up is because they just aren't using an addon to remind them (for any number of reasons to decide against using an addon for any given thing).

For leveling, there never seemed to me to be much point in using Inquisition. Kind of like a leveling enhance shaman and dropping totems, especially fire. Those two things are definite dps tools, but not awesome (other than for aoe grinding or elites) for the very short duration of a quest mob's life span. I'd rather use the gcd or holy power on damage to get the job done a bit quicker.

And sorry, Requital, I kind of facepalmed hard. :P
Why are you comparing prime glyphs on live to major glyphs in MoP? The Lava Burst glyph was removed from the beta some time ago, I believe, but the Unleashed Lightning glyph exists as he stated it.

[Malthanis]

inq glyph is a dps loss in every single case scenario; from players that barely use inq(brain-dead bads) to players that have 100% inq uptime(hardcore raiders).
inq glyph will be only useful to spot and kick bads from pugs; any ret with inq glyph will be kicked.
the glyph is just a bad design, they should just get rid of it.

wtb usefull and cool glyphs like 'gag order' or 'icy touch'

I'm assuming you perpetrated the post on the official forums that GC responded to? In which case, I'm going to quote him at you:

This glyph isn't supposed to be a no-brainer for DPS. Hopefully none of the glyphs are.

At the risk of sounding more patronizing than I intend, a common mistake I see some players make is to look at maximum possible theoretical DPS and assume that is the DPS they can achieve. We have the numbers we think every class can achieve under ideal situations (meaning no movement or distractions, etc.). The best players in the world can deliver on these numbers while executing very complex boss fights. That's a little mind boggling for us, but it's true. Very few players are capable of such feats however.

For the rest of us, our hope is that it works out like this:

1) Expert player who foregoes the Glyph of Inquisition, executes Inquisition uptime perfectly, and delivers 99% of max possible DPS.

2) Intermediate player who sometimes struggles with maintaining Inquisition, takes the glyph, and delivers 75% of max possible DPS.

3) Player who thinks he is more expert than he is, skips the Glyph of Inquisition because that's what all the cool kids do, finds as a result that he struggles with Inquisition uptime, and delivers 60% of Mac possible DPS.

Don't take my percentage numbers too seriously, but you get the idea. Many classes have similar glyphs. My advice is to measure your DPS (in an actual encounter or PvP) and see whether you benefit or not. The rotations that works for the best players (of any class) may not work for everyone. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Quite frankly, your attitude of "only bads use this" is a major problem. What if they're using the glyph while they improve their rotation? In that case, they fall in to category #2 that GC mentions above. If they do crappy DPS, feel free to kick them. A decision like that is based on evaluating their performance, which is perfectly valid. Kicking them just for having a glyph is just being a dick.

I'm just annoyed because it's a waste of a glyph available to us because they want to facilitate lazy people who can't be bothered to learn the mechanic (one blizz had already stated they don't like before giving it to us) when other classes don't waste glyph slots for similar things as req pointed out. Just imagine how much more useful some other, unspecified glyph could be compared to this junk.

Responding to the bolded sentence. Yes, they do. That's the point of major glyphs in Mists, to be quality of life and utility changes. If the redesign of the glyph system goes as I think they intend, you could not have any major glyphs at all and still do well.

Holy Power was a horrid idea at the first place. I'm now glad to have quit long ago. This game lacks the staff quality.

Please don't post "glad I quit" messages. They're not useful at

First off Glyph of Flameshock is not, It's only on the initial application of the flamehshock not the ticks after. So it's not even close it might be if the 15% reduction only lasted for 5 seconds.

Reckless with a -20% crit chance isn't the same as a flat damage reduction so while close it's not the same now if it said the duration was extended by 100% and the damage was reduced by 30% then it would be the same.

The last is a tanking glyph so no brainer of course you are exchanging damage for threat on purpose.

So by no means does anyone give up flat damage increase for the convenience of duration.

In regards to the Flameshock glyph, here's the baseline beta Flame Shock. Note how it says "X damage over 24 seconds". That means that a 25% increase to the duration of the DoT (to a total of 30 seconds) would reduce the damage it does per tick. I don't PvP much, but I do know the FS DoT is magic and enables auto-crits from Lava Burst, so it probably has a high priority for a healer to dispel in a fight. Not to mention that you don't get any extra damage out of it, so you do indeed lose damage by using this glyph, but gain a larger window for LvB crits.

I think they should leave primes in place and just retool the glyph mechanic to 1 prime, 2 major, and 3 minor. Make primes flat improvements and try to keep them relatively equal, make majors ability/spell cost reductions, and minors cosmetic.

Either that or just remove inscription completely. Removing relics and prime glyphs from the game in MoP along with making all the new glyphs cosmetic/situational almost trivializes the profession. Pulling it out might just give them the memory necessary to give me back my damned keyring.

Prime glyphs are boring, and are easy to determine which is the 'best' to use. The new glyph system is intended to be like the talent system, where there are pros and cons to each choice.

On your second point, why would you want the keyring back? They've effectively abandoned it as a mechanic. Also, removing Inscription would be a mistake at this point, as it's a genuinely interesting profession. Not to mention that it would put a lot of people out of a great deal of resources that they already invested in to the profession.

The thing with the Flame Shock (and Recklessness glyph, in some cases, unless my math is really bad, which I wouldn't doubt) glyph is, at least in pve, it seems to be theoretically, overall, a dps increase for anyone. Glyph of Inquisition only softens the suffering of a very inattentive Ret. Debatable whether allowing someone to use it once a minute rather than once every ~30 seconds would help train them to use it better (on that, curious as to why people say there's only nine levels it could be used for, as if we stop learning at 90). As mentioned, though, I'd suspect those that don't do well keeping it up is because they just aren't using an addon to remind them (for any number of reasons to decide against using an addon for any given thing).

The game has to be designed such that a person can play to a decent effect without addons. I'm not sure of an exact number, but 80% to 90% of theoretical DPS seems likely (while playing properly and paying attention, that is).

And sorry, Requital, I kind of facepalmed hard. :P
Why are you comparing prime glyphs on live to major glyphs in MoP? The Lava Burst glyph was removed from the beta some time ago, I believe, but the Unleashed Lightning glyph exists as he stated it.

@Requital:
That apples and oranges thing I mentioned? Yeah, you're doing that again: Glyph of Unleashed Lightning

[Selgar]

That apples and oranges thing I mentioned? Yeah, you're doing that again: Glyph of Unleashed Lightning

I don't play a shaman but that glyph sure seems like a dps increase to me (on anything other than a target dummy) a 0.1 sec increase in cast time but you can cast it while moving? Sure seems to me that would result in a net gain in the number of LB you could cast in 1 min seeing as you don't have to stand still to cast them anymore and considering even standing still for 1 min using that glyph would only result in 1.43 less bolts per min.

[Malthanis]

I don't play a shaman but that glyph sure seems like a dps increase to me (on anything other than a target dummy) a 0.1 sec increase in cast time but you can cast it while moving? Sure seems to me that would result in a net gain in the number of LB you could cast in 1 min seeing as you don't have to stand still to cast them anymore and considering even standing still for 1 min using that glyph would only result in 1.43 less bolts per min.

That's the point. But would you use it during fights where you can stand still? The whole point of the glyph system is for it to work similarly to the rune system for Diablo 3 abilities. You'll change them out based on the fights that you're getting in to.

[Austilias]

I don't see where people get the idea that skills like Inquisition/SnD/Recuperate/Savage Roar etc make their respective classes any less boring. Paladins for example are currently a class who function at 70% of their maximum potential by default, and absolutely must have and maintain Inquisition just to compare with their counterparts; which when you look at it actually presents Inquisition as being one of the most crippling/make-or-break buffs they ever added to the game. The aforementioned counterparts, in the form of DK's and Warriors, can charge in all guns blazing as classes who are already at 100%, and then buff themselves further with the likes of Shouts/Banners/PoF etcetera.

It is clunky, time-consuming, inconvenient and essentially forces the likes of Paladins/Feral DPS Druids etc to operate on a "Keep up ALL the buffs!" basis, whilst DK's for example, at worst, have only to worry about refreshing Horn of Winter every 4 mins, and they don't even have to worry about that if there's a few warriors around. Warriors likewise, have only their shouts to worry about, which is hardly the biggest of concerns if there's a DK. Whatever way you look at it, Inquisition has become little more than the supposedly glorified descendant of the old Vanilla Paladin Seals which had to be refreshed every 30 secs or after each judgement, and there was frankly never anything fun about that.

Hitting like the crusading, unstoppable, holy vanquishers of evil that Paladins are supposed to be, is leagues preferable to the supposed 'fun' of maintaining a buff that leaves us trailing behind other DPS if we screw up or time incorrectly; the alternative to which is glyphing and suffering for it, which is not something the others even have to worry about.

[Malthanis]

I don't see where people get the idea that skills like Inquisition/SnD/Recuperate/Savage Roar etc make their respective classes any less boring. Paladins for example are currently a class who function at 70% of their maximum potential by default, and absolutely must have and maintain Inquisition just to compare with their counterparts. The aforementioned counterparts, in the form of DK's and Warriors, can charge in all guns blazing as classes who are already at 100%, and then buff themselves further with the likes of Shouts/Banners/PoF etcetera.

It is clunky, time-consuming, inconvenient and essentially forces the likes of Paladins/Feral DPS Druids etc to operate on a "Keep up ALL the buffs!" basis, whilst DK's for example, at worst, have only to worry about refreshing Horn of Winter every 4 mins, and they don't even have to worry about that if there's a few warriors around. Warriors likewise, have only their shouts to worry about, which is hardly the biggest of concerns if there's a DK. Whatever way you look at it, Inquisition has become little more than the supposedly glorified descendant of the old Vanilla Paladin Seals which had to be refreshed every 30 secs or after each judgement, and there was frankly never anything fun about that.

Hitting like the crusading, unstoppable, holy vanquishers of evil that Paladins are supposed to be, is leagues preferable to the supposed 'fun' of maintaining a buff that leaves us trailing behind other DPS if we screw up or time incorrectly; the alternative to which is glyphing and suffering for it, which is not something the others even have to worry about.

It takes all of three GCDs for a Ret paladin to hit 3 Holy Power, two of which can be cast before hitting melee range. Judgment, then Exorcism, and Crusader Strike when reaching melee. At that point you're on target and have already hit your first Inquisition. It's not terribly difficult for us to get our "guns blazing" at the start of a fight.

As for your "all the buffs!" comment, it's one buff. We don't even have to track debuffs like Ferals do with their bleeds. With the increased speed in which we gain Holy Power, I highly doubt it will be an issue keeping Inq. There's no problem with the ability.

[Hakarran]

Majority of us who take playing relatively serious wouldn't mind the game being boring by not having to waste a gcd to refresh something that does no damage, and being forced to use it to do more damage.

It's a game. You have to work to get good dps and if you didn't, it would be boring. How can you play a game if it's boring, or do you just like seeing big numbers without having to work.

[Doombringer]

Let's call it like it is ... Inquisition is received at a high level. If you need training wheels at that time, a glyph probably won't help you. If you can't keep a 30 second buff up with the flood of Holy Power we get, you will probably have trouble with a 60 second buff as well.

That's because the problem isn't duration (which may be the case if we had problems generating enough Holy Power, but we do not) ... the problem there is player awareness.

Personally I don't find Inquisition to be fun at any duration... it is simply a necessity I have to accept. It's "busywork" and not precisely great design.

[Elovan]

I had a big post full of math, but my internet went out and I lost it, so here's the summary:

If using the glyph will give you 100% uptime on Inq, you would need to miss refreshing Inq without the glyph for about 6 seconds in order for the glyph to be a dps increase. Taking into account the fact that if you have trouble maintaining Inq without the glyph probably means you'll have some trouble maintaining it with it, it only drops down to about 8 seconds, since the extra TV's will still help. If the glyph were on live this would be good, however on beta since Holy Power comes in much faster and smoother, the glyph is less useful since it's quite likely you'll get 3 HP within those 6 seconds to get it back up.

[Boogieknight]

On your second point, why would you want the keyring back? They've effectively abandoned it as a mechanic. Also, removing Inscription would be a mistake at this point, as it's a genuinely interesting profession. Not to mention that it would put a lot of people out of a great deal of resources that they already invested in to the profession.

1) I'd like to have my Keymaster achievement and the achievement points it provided that they took away.
2) it gives me a place to store Blacksmithing keys I use to open chests and lockboxes when I'm farming.

And Inscription is not that unique. Aside from relics (being removed), offhand items (situational per class), Darkmoon cards (not worth it after first tier it seems), and glyphs (primes being removed and majors looking to be unnecessary or a DPS loss for good players) what's the major selling point? For cata it was "you don't have to grind Therazane rep" and "Glyphs are &%^$ expensive, go make money." If nothing else just pull it and replace everyone with the same level of skill in either Alchemy or Enchanting or something. They're going a long way to try to make a WOTLK profession still viable while pulling everything it's useful for. I'm leveling a new toon on a new server and let me tell you, glyphs are so prohibitively expensive it's disheartening to think that they're necessary when you're new.

[Ssateneth]

Glyphs in mop are like talents in mop now. They are SUPPOSED to be DECISIONS, not no-brainer cookie cutter. Ghostcrawler even said the glyph of inq is mostly aimed at people who have trouble at keeping it up. Great players won't need the glyph. Players not so great should, and probably will, use it. Uninformed players will only look at min/max and not use it, but will probably do even worse dps compared to actually having the glyph, because they don't know how the manage their inquisition buff uptime.

[Divineknight13]

Anyone else find this to be a complete insult?

Glyph of Inquisition now reduces the damage bonus of Inquisition by 15%, up from 10%.

As if it wasn't a complete pile of crap before hahaha

PS It could be a tooltip issue from data mining but w/e it is it's bad.

has anyone actually done the maths on it yet? since holy power will be a more abundant source of for us rets now

does 15% with x up time duration number crunch to more dps over time then 30% up time with x shorter duration?

i really would like to see a theory crafter help work this out plz ? im not so good with the numbers myself

ps: inq is fine as is tbh the way it is it now just gives rets the feel of the old seal system ...

[fears]

It's a game. You have to work to get good dps and if you didn't, it would be boring. How can you play a game if it's boring, or do you just like seeing big numbers without having to work.

In what you quoted of my numerous posts here you got "Majority of us who take playing relatively serious wouldn't mind the game being boring by not having to waste a gcd to refresh something that does no damage, and being forced to use it to do more damage." Ok..

So I'm stating that I take my damage serious, yet you open up your statement letting me know it's just a game. One taking something serious doesn't mean it is or isn't any less fun, and if I didnt take my dmg serious the game wouldnt be fun to me so we'll just nip that in the bud now =)

You boldly go on to let me know that "You have to work to get good dps and if you didn't, it would be boring" So wait..... I'm supposed to work to do good dps aka try, possibly take it serious enough to where I strive to do good?

You use work 2x in 20 or so words, am I playing a game or working? You say it's just a game then tell people they need to work at things. Very confusing.

I guess you haven't played much if at all of ret since inquisitions inception and thats fine, there are alot of new players and ideas are always welcome. The comment you quoted was sarcasm. "We wouldnt mind the game being boring if we didnt have to keep hitting inq" which just implies theres a good chunk of people who dont want to hit it and dont like the ability.

OT
There should be no glyph in the game that crutches you for 9 levels. Make inquisition a level 25 ability and this glyph makes sense. To learn it incorrectly from the start seems pointless.

[Gracin]

has anyone actually done the maths on it yet? since holy power will be a more abundant source of for us rets now

does 15% with x up time duration number crunch to more dps over time then 30% up time with x shorter duration?

i really would like to see a theory crafter help work this out plz ? im not so good with the numbers myself

ps: inq is fine as is tbh the way it is it now just gives rets the feel of the old seal system ...

By using the glyph you are essentially gaining one 3HPTV per minute at the cost of 15% damage cross the board. I am no wizard at math, but there isn't any way that single TV is covering 30 seconds of 15% less damage.

I personally have hated the holy power mechanic for ret since its inception. It has always felt like a clunky out of place mechanic, and tying it in with wasting a global on inquisition has always been a sad way to add "diversity" to the spec.

[Malthanis]

1) I'd like to have my Keymaster achievement and the achievement points it provided that they took away.
2) it gives me a place to store Blacksmithing keys I use to open chests and lockboxes when I'm farming.

And Inscription is not that unique. Aside from relics (being removed), offhand items (situational per class), Darkmoon cards (not worth it after first tier it seems), and glyphs (primes being removed and majors looking to be unnecessary or a DPS loss for good players) what's the major selling point? For cata it was "you don't have to grind Therazane rep" and "Glyphs are &%^$ expensive, go make money." If nothing else just pull it and replace everyone with the same level of skill in either Alchemy or Enchanting or something. They're going a long way to try to make a WOTLK profession still viable while pulling everything it's useful for. I'm leveling a new toon on a new server and let me tell you, glyphs are so prohibitively expensive it's disheartening to think that they're necessary when you're new.

"Because achievement" isn't really a good reason to re-implement it. Neither is the bag space issue, really.

Inscription will remain useful for the two reasons you stated:

1. You won't need to grind rep for the shoulder enchant faction.
2. You'll be able to make glyphs for yourself and guild members (skipping the process of purchasing them).
3. You'll be able to sell them and make money.

In a specific response to the bolded sentence, I suppose they should have just pulled Blacksmithing, Enchanting, etc., from the game. Since, you know, they're just Vanilla professions. The only thing they're removing are relics, and those aren't terribly important in the first place.

There should be no glyph in the game that crutches you for 9 levels. Make inquisition a level 25 ability and this glyph makes sense. To learn it incorrectly from the start seems pointless.

The whole "we only have it for 9 levels" thing is a bit dishonest, isn't it? That implies that we'll all be perfectly attuned to our raid-level DPS rotation just through the leveling process, and the moment we hit 90 we're prepared to execute it perfectly.

By using the glyph you are essentially gaining one 3HPTV per minute at the cost of 15% damage cross the board. I am no wizard at math, but there isn't any way that single TV is covering 30 seconds of 15% less damage.

I personally have hated the holy power mechanic for ret since its inception. It has always felt like a clunky out of place mechanic, and tying it in with wasting a global on inquisition has always been a sad way to add "diversity" to the spec.

First and foremost, Inquisition still just benefits Holy damage. I realize that yes, we do a good portion of our damage as Holy, but halving the bonus from the spell in no way reduces our damage by a flat 15%. So it isn't nearly the deficit that some seem to be making it.

Two, you have to account for procs. It's entirely possible that you could indeed get similar or better damage based on your setup (which I believe, at this point, would involve taking Divine Purpose).

[Gracin]

First and foremost, Inquisition still just benefits Holy damage. I realize that yes, we do a good portion of our damage as Holy, but halving the bonus from the spell in no way reduces our damage by a flat 15%. So it isn't nearly the deficit that some seem to be making it.

Right but even so one extra TV per minute is not going to cover 15% bonus damage to Censure, Exocism(not sure if the dot is still in), Hand of Light, Judgement, and Hammer of Wrath.

Two, you have to account for procs. It's entirely possible that you could indeed get similar or better damage based on your setup (which I believe, at this point, would involve taking Divine Purpose).

There is no need to account for procs considering the procs don't change the fact that glyphed inquisition is still only allowing 1 extra TV per minute. Adding procs from a talent like Divine Purpose only weakens the glyph by losing more potential holy damage from Divine Purpose procs.

[Deleted]

Right but even so one extra TV per minute is not going to cover 15% bonus damage to Censure, Exocism(not sure if the dot is still in), Hand of Light, Judgement, and Hammer of Wrath.



There is no need to account for procs considering the procs don't change the fact that glyphed inquisition is still only allowing 1 extra TV per minute. Adding procs from a talent like Divine Purpose only weakens the glyph by losing more potential holy damage from Divine Purpose procs.

This, when the beta started it was at 10%, even then there wasn't much debate... if they wanted retri's to give a thought about using it they would have to put it at 5% and not adding another 5% and making it a total of 15%.
5%- maybe but I still doubt people would use it, not even in fights with a lot of movement.
10%-no.
15%- HELL NO! NO WAY!
I guess that someone read the #Dev note number 80 wrong, which said: "Must reduce penalty by 5%" and he read "Must increase penalty by 5%." Too bad.