Why does DHS need 450 million rounds of ammunition?

[Twiddly]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk...k=MW_news_stmp



That seems like a quite high number for "homeland security" to use, considering as far as I know, they have never shot anyone. 450 million hollowpoints is enough to kill everyone in the US ffs! Why are we spending so much money on ammunition for ICE (Immigration, though they have been more into anti-piracy lately) and DHS?

More government waste, for an organization that should not even exist in its current state.

[Olo]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk...k=MW_news_stmp



That seems like a quite high number for "homeland security" to use, considering as far as I know, they have never shot anyone. 450 million hollowpoints is enough to kill everyone in the US ffs! Why are we spending so much money on ammunition for ICE (Immigration, though they have been more into anti-piracy lately) and DHS?

More government waste, for an organization that should not even exist in its current state.

"This contract features a base of 12 months, includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million"

http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...rchasing-many/

"Homeland Security spokesman Matthew Chandler who said by email that the cited quantity of up to 450 million rounds is "the quantity projected to be used over the next five years."

"This contract is intended to be used by all (agency) components, except" the U.S. Coast Guard, he said, which uses ammunition obtained through the Defense Department. According to a Homeland Security web page, the agency’s 20-plus components include the Transportation Security Administration, which handles passenger screening at most airports; U.S. Customs and Border Protection, entrusted with keeping terrorists and their weapons out of the country and with enforcing immigration and drug laws; U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement; and the Secret Service."

"This contract is part of the department’s strategic sourcing efforts to combine multiple previous contracts in order to leverage the purchasing power of the entire department,"

"Chandler said earlier that Homeland Security oversees more than 135,000 weapons-carrying officers."

"Asked how the decision to purchase up to 450 million of the .40-caliber rounds compares to previous Homeland Security buys, Chandler said only that because the 2012 contract combines multiple previous contracts, it is different than "previous contract vehicles."

"Whoever came up with this one bullet per person is trying to sensationalize this. That’s borderline irresponsible."

Our ruling

Homeland Security has contracted to buy up to 450 million .40-caliber bullets -- and that total exceeds the nation’s population. Significantly, though, the purchase contract covers five years; there’s no indication the agency is piling up the bullets in a hurry.

More significantly, we found nothing to support the email’s ominous suggestions. Rather, the large size of the contract is explained as a way for the government to buy in bulk to save money on ammunition used routinely for training officers in a wide variety of agencies.

-Politifact

[Calgus-CC]

First off, you have to understand that a lot of that will sit in storage in case they ever need it later down the line. Another large portion of it will be allocated to live fires and range time to get people qualified on weapons. And the rest will be given to people to use in the field. When I was over in Al Ramadi Iraq, I personally carried ~400-500 5.56 rounds on me at all times (6 Mags x 30 rounds on hip, 6 Mags on chest, 1 in Rifle, 1 on rifle buttstock, and usually 1-2 in cargo pocket). That is still a 400:1 ratio of ammunition per person and that's not even including other people with fully auto weapons. That is a lot of ammo for DHS to order. But it's not like they won't ever use it, or if they have extra's, it can't be redistributed to other branches.

[Twiddly]

Yeah, and look at there last contract.

---------- Post added 2012-05-19 at 03:20 PM ----------

First off, you have to understand that a lot of that will sit in storage in case they ever need it later down the line. Another large portion of it will be allocated to live fires and range time to get people qualified on weapons. And the rest will be given to people to use in the field. When I was over in Al Ramadi Iraq, I personally carried ~400-500 5.56 rounds on me at all times (6 Mags x 30 rounds on hip, 6 Mags on chest, 1 in Rifle, 1 on rifle buttstock, and usually 1-2 in cargo pocket). That is still a 400:1 ratio of ammunition per person and that's not even including other people with fully auto weapons. That is a lot of ammo for DHS to order. But it's not like they won't ever use it, or if they have extra's, it can't be redistributed to other branches.

The problem is, why does DHS need to carry ammunition of that volume? or even half? What exactly are they shooting?

[Sugarbunneh]

training / target practice will use alot maybe?

[Deleted]

training / target practice will use alot maybe?

I don't know anything about guns, but would they use hollow points for training?

[Traherne]

The OP seems to be doing what most of the media does; not giving the whole story. "Maximum of 450 million rounds." You don't magically get good at shooting a weapon so I would assume that using the rounds to qualify and practice with is the primary use. And to answer the "why do they need this much" is the same reasoning we don't just start building 100,000 tanks or enlisting 500,000 people when we end up needing them. "Hey guys, blahblah country is attacking time to build some aircraft carriers". I'm not going to debate if it's a good or bad thing. Take care and please try to make less fictional topics.

[Deleted]

Plus it states that they are being given a "Maximum of 450 million rounds" and it's over a 12 month contract. It doesn't mean that they're going to instantly be given 450 million hollowpoint rounds, it means that over the course of the 12 months they CAN be given up to a maximum of 450 million rounds to use.

[Olo]

Plus it states that they are being given a "Maximum of 450 million rounds" and it's over a 12 month contract. It doesn't mean that they're going to instantly be given 450 million hollowpoint rounds, it means that over the course of the 12 months they CAN be given up to a maximum of 450 million rounds to use.

It's a max of 450mil over 5 years, not 12 months

[anveena]

Gotta train people how to shoot a gun someway.

[Bakis]

If one would estimate how many field agents there are, what would it be 20-25 000 all in all in the ton of agencies included?
Of them I guess many dont even carry arms.
Hms would be nice to know but I guess the numbers are classified

[Olo]

If one would estimate how many field agents there are, what would it be 20-25 000 all in all in the ton of agencies included?
Of them I guess many dont even carry arms.
Hms would be nice to know but I guess the numbers are classified

"Chandler said earlier that Homeland Security oversees more than 135,000 weapons-carrying officers."

[Bakis]

"Chandler said earlier that Homeland Security oversees more than 135,000 weapons-carrying officers."

What subagency, part of Homeland Security would they be part of, especially since he said oversees.

[Svifnymr]

I don't know anything about guns, but would they use hollow points for training?

For normal folks, cheaper round nose is normal. For agencies where liability is a concern, you train with what you will have in your gun at the time. Doesn't do a lot of good shooting 400 round nose in training, then your gun jams on the third hollowpoint out of your gun.


I forget which they use, HK's or SIG's, either way is 12 or 13 rounds, one in gun, two on side.

Assuming the 450 mil/ 135k officers/ 5 years, that's 666 rounds a year per officer. Qualification courses average 100-150 rounds a year for most agencies, leaving about 500 rounds for practice/ stockpiling.

[Sayl]

If one would estimate how many field agents there are, what would it be 20-25 000 all in all in the ton of agencies included?
Of them I guess many dont even carry arms.
Hms would be nice to know but I guess the numbers are classified

The DHS is kind enough to tell us right on their website that they employ 900 law enforcement officers of their own, and have another 15,000 guards under contract to protect federal buildings and the like. The ICE tells us they have over 20,000 employees manning 400 offices. Even without a specific number, officers certainly comprise the bulk of that.

[Twotonsteak]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk...k=MW_news_stmp



That seems like a quite high number for "homeland security" to use, considering as far as I know, they have never shot anyone. 450 million hollowpoints is enough to kill everyone in the US ffs! Why are we spending so much money on ammunition for ICE (Immigration, though they have been more into anti-piracy lately) and DHS?

More government waste, for an organization that should not even exist in its current state.

Agencies included in the Department of Homeland Secruity....

United States Citizenship and Immigration Services: Processes and examines citizenship, residency, and asylum requests from aliens.
U.S. Customs and Border Protection: Law enforcement agency that enforces U.S. laws along its international borders (air, land, and sea) including its enforcement of U.S. immigration, customs, and agriculture laws while at and patrolling between all U.S. ports-of-entry.
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement: Law enforcement agency divided into two bureaus:
An agency that enforces U.S. laws while it investigates and gathers intelligence on national and international criminal activities that threaten the security of the homeland (Homeland Security Investigations); and
An agency that investigates violations of the Immigration and Nationality Act and enforces the detention, deportation and removal of violators of United States immigration law (Enforcement and Removal Operations).
Transportation Security Administration: Responsible for aviation security (domestic and international, most notably conducting passenger screenings at airports), as well as land and water transportation security
United States Coast Guard: Military service responsible for law enforcement, maritime security, national defense, maritime mobility, and protection of natural resources.[12]
United States Secret Service: Law enforcement agency that investigates threats against and provides protective services for the President and Vice President of the United States and their immediate families as well as other important governmental officials. It also investigates crimes against the U.S. monetary system including the crime of counterfeiting U.S. currency and other financial instruments.
Federal Emergency Management Agency: agency that oversees the federal government's response to natural disasters like earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, forest fires, etc.

Note that among those agencies are Border Protection and the Coast Guard.

The DHS also oversee's all Federal law enforcement (CIA/FBI/Secret Service) training.

[Sayl]

But the OP wants to rage about stuff! Don't let pesky facts get in the way.

[Bakis]

But the OP wants to rage about stuff! Don't let pesky facts get in the way.

You are from Texas, you would gladly give all "agressive" agencies unlimited funding, amarite?
So am I, check my t-shirt!!!

---------- Post added 2012-05-19 at 09:55 PM ----------

Agencies included in the Department of Homeland Secruity....

United States Citizenship and Immigration Services: Processes and examines citizenship, residency, and asylum requests from aliens.
U.S. Customs and Border Protection: Law enforcement agency that enforces U.S. laws along its international borders (air, land, and sea) including its enforcement of U.S. immigration, customs, and agriculture laws while at and patrolling between all U.S. ports-of-entry.
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement: Law enforcement agency divided into two bureaus:
An agency that enforces U.S. laws while it investigates and gathers intelligence on national and international criminal activities that threaten the security of the homeland (Homeland Security Investigations); and
An agency that investigates violations of the Immigration and Nationality Act and enforces the detention, deportation and removal of violators of United States immigration law (Enforcement and Removal Operations).
Transportation Security Administration: Responsible for aviation security (domestic and international, most notably conducting passenger screenings at airports), as well as land and water transportation security
United States Coast Guard: Military service responsible for law enforcement, maritime security, national defense, maritime mobility, and protection of natural resources.[12]
United States Secret Service: Law enforcement agency that investigates threats against and provides protective services for the President and Vice President of the United States and their immediate families as well as other important governmental officials. It also investigates crimes against the U.S. monetary system including the crime of counterfeiting U.S. currency and other financial instruments.
Federal Emergency Management Agency: agency that oversees the federal government's response to natural disasters like earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, forest fires, etc.

Note that among those agencies are Border Protection and the Coast Guard.

The DHS also oversee's all Federal law enforcement (CIA/FBI/Secret Service) training.

Yea I read that as well, presuming it is failry accurate I dont see how there would be 135 000 armed agents, just outside the US.

[Sayl]

You are from Texas, you would gladly give all "agressive" agencies unlimited funding, amarite?
So am I, check my t-shirt!!!

I'm a northern transplant that fled to Austin to get out of the snow. If I were going to give any agencies unlimited funding, it'd be NASA and NOAA.

[Bakis]

I'm a northern transplant that fled to Austin to get out of the snow. If I were going to give any agencies unlimited funding, it'd be NASA and NOAA.

Yea time to send up a Hubble II !