Sun Tzu's teachings and Guild Wars 2.

[Woebegone]

That's actually what I was thinking of. On a tightly contested map, every keep will have some defense.

Since this whole thing was about Sun'tzu to begin with, I'm fairly certain he also wrote "he who defends everything, defends nothing".

EDIT: Messed up quotation.

Also, this is one of the biggest differences in an 'online war'. Because you never really lose your troops, you can just sacrifice them to slow down the enemy - they'll be there in full force when you need to defend that last keep anyway.

[Darksoldierr]

Since this whole thing was about Sun'tzu to begin with, I'm fairly certain he also wrote "he who defends everything, defends nothing".

EDIT: Messed up quotation.

Also, this is one of the biggest differences in an 'online war'. Because you never really lose your troops, you can just sacrifice them to slow down the enemy - they'll be there in full force when you need to defend that last keep anyway.

Exactly, you can apply some real life strategy into the game, but the philosophy behind it cannot be

[iggie]

I agree with Dark. Only his strategies can be applied, for he became famous for real world actions. It's a good read, but fairly pointless to online games.

[Bridger]

Orz from Team Legacy has been working on adapting Sun Tzu's Art of War to MMOs. You can find his blog here: http://www.artofmmowar.com/

I found it quite an enjoyable read. Another one is David Sirlin's Playing to Win, where he uses a lot of Sun Tzu to discuss competitive gaming.

[iggie]

Orz from Team Legacy has been working on adapting Sun Tzu's Art of War to MMOs. You can find his blog here: http://www.artofmmowar.com/

I found it quite an enjoyable read.

When engaged in battle, use game mechanics efficiently and effectively to make intended objectives known to allow players to focus their efforts.

I want the few minuets of my life back for reading that load of garbage. Any webpage with auto right click blocking screams failure. The way he tries to sound like Sun Tzu makes me want to hurl.

[semantic]

Since this whole thing was about Sun'tzu to begin with, I'm fairly certain he also wrote "he who defends everything, defends nothing"....

Having a few breathing defenders in or near each keep doesn't qualify as 'trying to defend everything'. It's how you get the most out of fortifications, as long as you have enough in reserve to break a siege.

[Glytch]

Having a few breathing defenders in or near each keep doesn't qualify as 'trying to defend everything'. It's how you get the most out of fortifications, as long as you have enough in reserve to break a siege.

actually this piece of advice is very true in AB and BFG in wow and in AB in gw1, and sPvP in gw2. if you try to defend everything equally you spread your forces far too thin. to use a wow example, in RBGs you dont keep 3 people at farm or stables, you keep a tank there and move the others to the front line. the same applies in gw2 sPvP, you cant equally defend everything or you're goign to lose a base

[semantic]

And sorry, but when I see people say Sun doesn't apply, I see this in my head.

[Herrenos]

One of the better tricks I ran into in WvWvW in the BWE was when my small group assaulted one side of a fort where we were outmatched in numbers, knowing that our friends were coming.

The cool strategy part of it was an accident, thus making it not really cool strategy at all, but I'm sure you could recreate it intentionally:

We realized we were getting our butts kicked so we ran. The defenders poured out of the fort to chase us. Our larger force arrived from the opposite side of the keep shortly after and by the time the defenders caught on realized their fort was still in big trouble the wall was almost down

[terrahero]

One of the better tricks I ran into in WvWvW in the BWE was when my small group assaulted one side of a fort where we were outmatched in numbers, knowing that our friends were coming.

The cool strategy part of it was an accident, thus making it not really cool strategy at all, but I'm sure you could recreate it intentionally:

We realized we were getting our butts kicked so we ran. The defenders poured out of the fort to chase us. Our larger force arrived from the opposite side of the keep shortly after and by the time the defenders caught on realized their fort was still in big trouble the wall was almost down

Good old baiting. Has worked in real wars aswell, interrestingly enough i know if one instance where it was also a bit of an accident. But it worked to lure the defending force out of its solid line.

Im sure itll be a pretty effective tactic in WvW. People playing in such large groups are dumb, its like they surrender reason and common sense to the group. Zergs will be easy to counter with a good strategy, even in much smaller numbers. As a few players with good AoE can knock a whole zerg who is standing against the door, flat on their back in seconds.

[Merendel]

I want the few minuets of my life back for reading that load of garbage. Any webpage with auto right click blocking screams failure. The way he tries to sound like Sun Tzu makes me want to hurl.

erm... what are you talking about right click worked just fine for me on that page. the format could be better and I havent read through all the content but there's nothing screaming fail about the page at first glance.

[Mamado]

Much of the Art of War applies to places like wvwvw, but large portions of it just don't. So much of what he wrote capitalized on the psychology of combatants instead of pure tactics- and unfortunately it doesn't apply in a benefits-only combat situation like Guild Wars 2.

If you want to see Sun Tzu's teachings come into full effect, check out combat in a game like Eve, where players not only can gain quite a bit through combat but can also lose it all.

[semantic]

.. it doesn't apply in a benefits-only combat situation like Guild Wars 2....

Opponents will simply try deprive each other of the resources available. The primary player resource will be opportunity. If I can spoil your one good opportunity (while you have all your best-organized players and teams online) and force you to come back tomorrow, it's the same as taking in-game resources from you. It's like saying tennis isn't as competitive as guerrilla warfare because there's no bloodshed. That's technically correct, but people just shift what they fight over.

[Mamado]

Opponents will simply try deprive each other of the resources available. The primary player resource will be opportunity. If I can spoil your one good opportunity (while you have all your best-organized players and teams online) and force you to come back tomorrow, it's the same as taking in-game resources from you. It's like saying tennis isn't as competitive as guerrilla warfare because there's no bloodshed. That's technically correct, but people just shift what they fight over.

Sure, there's downsides to losing. But they're almost laughable.

Sun Tzu described an event when he burned his men's own ships to prevent them from retreating. Why? Because that would make them fight harder now that they had no other option. Their lives are at stake.

And actually, you are wrong. Tennis is as competitive as guerrilla warfare. Have you ever watched Wimbledon? Careers are made and lost there. In those games there are real applications of Sun Tzu's psychological tactics. Because the penalties are just as real as though their own lives were on the line.

A lost opportunity is the equivalent of a lost day or week of your life. Big deal. Sure, a lot of players will get really into it (as I will). But the penalties just don't exist to motivate players in the same way.

Now if each character was only given one life in wvwvw.... then I'd start studying the Art of War. And maybe a little bit of Machiavelli on the side. But until penalties are more than a little time lost, the masses will continue to throw themselves into battle without caution and will be unaffected by the psychological musings of an old Chinese guy.

[iggie]

erm... what are you talking about right click worked just fine for me on that page. the format could be better and I havent read through all the content but there's nothing screaming fail about the page at first glance.

Well, the words written are fail, but in google chrome/FF/IE I can't right click for sure (first few seconds you can).

[Merendel]

Well, the words written are fail, but in google chrome/FF/IE I can't right click for sure (first few seconds you can).

I use FF and did not have any problem with right click. Wouldnt touch internet exploder with a 10 foot pole and a hazmat suit however, does anybody even use that POS anymore? Do agree that the content was rather pointless after reading a bit more but meh wasnt doing anything else at the time.