Arena: A Negative Influence on PvP

[PizzaSHARK]

Arenas need to stop being used for balancing data.

The problem is that arena-style PvP just isn't really what WoW was designed for, and despite them balancing around it for three entire expansions now (TBC, WotLK, Cata), it's still not a good fit. Sure, spec and class representation is wider now than it was back in TBC, but there are still issues with it that I don't see them being able to fix without impacting PvE in a negative manner.

And that's the core issue: WoW is first and foremost a PvE game, and any PvP is pretty much a sideshow to the main event. I made my peace with that a long time ago, but that doesn't mean the PvP has to be bad. I don't think it'll ever be balanced enough to the point where you could take it seriously as a competitive eSport - not so long as PvE is taking priority, rather than Blizzard making both PvE and PvP equally important - but I do think it could be more interesting and more enjoyable for everyone if they stopped focusing so heavily on duels in a box, and swapped their focus back to (Rated) Battlegrounds.

See, the problem with arena is that you don't have any extra objectives, and you only have a single life. This naturally means some specs and even classes aren't going to really be effective (tanks are pretty much a waste of space, for example), and runs counter to literally every other means of PvP in the game where you have objectives that extend beyond red=dead... or at least have more than one life to use.

The main reason I say that arena should just be "for funsies," and stop being taken seriously is because I don't think Blizzard are willing to put in the effort required to make both Battlegrounds and arenas fun-and-balanced - that's a hell of a lot of work, especially when it can't affect a class's PvE performance. And, going by popularity alone, (random) Battlegrounds are far and away the most-played, most popular PvP in the game, by a huge margin. That doesn't mean they should balance around random BGs, but if they focused purely on rated BGs, the balance changes and effects would naturally trickle down to randoms - the result is a more fun, enjoyable experience for everyone. Arena players will still have arenas, and I'd be fine with arena ratings still being a viable means of acquiring the elite PvP gear, but I do think that the focus needs to shift off of arena and back to Battlegrounds. In a BG, every class and every spec has a place and is valued - tanks, glass cannon DPS, healers, everyone. In arenas, though, if you're squishy or don't bring DPS to the table, you're pretty much stuck sitting on the sidelines.

That's fine - every class has three specs and at least one of those specs is currently viable (except lolwarriors), but shouldn't PvP be about playing what you want to play, not having to swap specs to play something you don't find enjoyable? In a PvE game, shouldn't PvP be something that's fun and a break from the usual?

[Deleted]

That doesn't mean they should balance around random BGs, but if they focused purely on rated BGs, the balance changes and effects would naturally trickle down to randoms - the result is a more fun, enjoyable experience for everyone.

I don't see much evidence that Blizz has been balancing around arena for this expansion. See the dominance of resto shaman/afflic lock for the expansion, or quite how OP rogues are in arena right now. All of this is less of an issue in RBG's. Or from the other perspective, boomkins have real problems in arena and are only really viable in LSD 2.0, but they're good in RBG's and have been left as they are. As for "the balance changes and effects would naturally trickle down to randoms" this was the original argument made about RBG's, and so far the only real change it has brought was the WSG GY change, something that for the most part was negative for random BG's (GY farming). Arena is not the problem, Blizz deciding pvp balance should only be addressed each content patch and then left alone is the problem.

[PizzaSHARK]

I don't see much evidence that Blizz has been balancing around arena for this expansion. See the dominance of resto shaman/afflic lock for the expansion, or quite how OP rogues are in arena right now. All of this is less of an issue in RBG's. Or from the other perspective, boomkins have real problems in arena and are only really viable in LSD 2.0, but they're good in RBG's and have been left as they are. As for "the balance changes and effects would naturally trickle down to randoms" this was the original argument made about RBG's, and so far the only real change it has brought was the WSG GY change, something that for the most part was negative for random BG's (GY farming). Arena is not the problem, Blizz deciding pvp balance should only be addressed each content patch and then left alone is the problem.

I don't see how you can justify the state of Rogues this season, or the state of Mages for the entire expansion without saying it's focused on arena. Frost Mages have always been powerful, and Fire Mages can be even worse (in BGs) if the people know how to play them.

I'd agree that Blizzard's lax stance regarding balance updates mid-season is a major problem as well, but I don't agree that arenas haven't been the primary focus.

[NPEC]

Arenas need to stop being used for balancing data.

The problem is that arena-style PvP just isn't really what WoW was designed for, and despite them balancing around it for three entire expansions now (TBC, WotLK, Cata), it's still not a good fit. Sure, spec and class representation is wider now than it was back in TBC, but there are still issues with it that I don't see them being able to fix without impacting PvE in a negative manner.

And that's the core issue: WoW is first and foremost a PvE game, and any PvP is pretty much a sideshow to the main event.

I do agre with your post until i read the last line quoted. I just stoped reading from here down.

[Deleted]

I do agre with your post until i read the last line quoted. I just stoped reading from here down.

It's true no matter how much you dislike it, besides we don't need to hear your "Hey I didn't read your post because.. this and that" frankly I think you should just keep that to yourself. If you don't intend to read the entire op, please don't post at all.

As much as I like the idea of arena, I would personally rather see pvp balanced around 1v1. It's no fun to be class A, that knows no matter how good you are, you won't beat class B. That's just my opinion, and anyone can disagree with me.
By the way, isn't prot warriors viable in rbgs? (refering to one of your last statements, off topic regardless).

[NPEC]

It's true no matter how much you dislike it, besides we don't need to hear your "Hey I didn't read your post because.. this and that" frankly I think you should just keep that to yourself. If you don't intend to read the entire op, please don't post at all.

If you cant read the underlines i will clearifie my words to you. I totaly agree with the op idea that arenas shouldnt be used to balance pvp.

I just dont agree with pve being the biger part and pvp only a subproduct, that migth have been true in early vanila, and im notsaing it was, but nowaday pvp is almost, if not the same, as important as pve.

[Gotjuice]

Jesus stop the bitching, arenas are not going anywhere and they will be used to balance classes because how much dps you do in x raid boss is not a good balancing measurement. In any case the most imbalance comes from PvE trinkets, weapons and such.

They are implementing this PvP power stat which is supposed to help and they're also starting to apply different mechanics to an ability based on your PvE or PvP target so that is a step in the right direction.

[hx9]

Class and spec representation are back to BC levels this patch. RLS, RMP. The rest can go home. In season 2,3 it was WLD, RMP.

Seasons ordered by highest class/spec representation: 6, 7, 4, 8, 5, 1, 4, 3, 2, 10, 9, 11

[Deleted]

If you cant read the underlines i will clearifie my words to you. I totaly agree with the op idea that arenas shouldnt be used to balance pvp.

I just dont agree with pve being the biger part and pvp only a subproduct, that migth have been true in early vanila, and im notsaing it was, but nowaday pvp is almost, if not the same, as important as pve.

I didn't refer to your opinion, but the fact that you feel entitled to post, even through you claim you haven't read the entire OP. This game is balanced around pve, I never said that I agreed that's a good idea, but it's a fact.

---------- Post added 2012-05-25 at 04:52 PM ----------

Seasons ordered by highest class/spec representation: 6, 7, 4, 8, 5, 1, 4, 3, 2, 10, 9, 11

Source? As far as I can see that's just a personal opinion.

[Wolfdragon]

Arenas need to stop being used for balancing data.

The problem is that arena-style PvP just isn't really what WoW was designed for, and despite them balancing around it for three entire expansions now (TBC, WotLK, Cata), it's still not a good fit. Sure, spec and class representation is wider now than it was back in TBC, but there are still issues with it that I don't see them being able to fix without impacting PvE in a negative manner.

And that's the core issue: WoW is first and foremost a PvE game, and any PvP is pretty much a sideshow to the main event. I made my peace with that a long time ago, but that doesn't mean the PvP has to be bad. I don't think it'll ever be balanced enough to the point where you could take it seriously as a competitive eSport - not so long as PvE is taking priority, rather than Blizzard making both PvE and PvP equally important - but I do think it could be more interesting and more enjoyable for everyone if they stopped focusing so heavily on duels in a box, and swapped their focus back to (Rated) Battlegrounds.

See, the problem with arena is that you don't have any extra objectives, and you only have a single life. This naturally means some specs and even classes aren't going to really be effective (tanks are pretty much a waste of space, for example), and runs counter to literally every other means of PvP in the game where you have objectives that extend beyond red=dead... or at least have more than one life to use.

The main reason I say that arena should just be "for funsies," and stop being taken seriously is because I don't think Blizzard are willing to put in the effort required to make both Battlegrounds and arenas fun-and-balanced - that's a hell of a lot of work, especially when it can't affect a class's PvE performance. And, going by popularity alone, (random) Battlegrounds are far and away the most-played, most popular PvP in the game, by a huge margin. That doesn't mean they should balance around random BGs, but if they focused purely on rated BGs, the balance changes and effects would naturally trickle down to randoms - the result is a more fun, enjoyable experience for everyone. Arena players will still have arenas, and I'd be fine with arena ratings still being a viable means of acquiring the elite PvP gear, but I do think that the focus needs to shift off of arena and back to Battlegrounds. In a BG, every class and every spec has a place and is valued - tanks, glass cannon DPS, healers, everyone. In arenas, though, if you're squishy or don't bring DPS to the table, you're pretty much stuck sitting on the sidelines.

That's fine - every class has three specs and at least one of those specs is currently viable (except lolwarriors), but shouldn't PvP be about playing what you want to play, not having to swap specs to play something you don't find enjoyable? In a PvE game, shouldn't PvP be something that's fun and a break from the usual?

WoW Arena has been an e-Sport for longer than you've been playing I presume. WoW Arena should and has to be what blizzard balances around, if they balance around anything else wow can and will get broken. WoW Arena is coming back as an e-Sport even now, with Yaspresents NAO and Curse all hosting tournaments to popularise it, yet again. WoW still has a contract with MLG so if anything it has an ensured spot on MLG in MoP, because due to the overhaul that happened in cataclysm, it was put on pause as an e-sport for this expansion.

---------- Post added 2012-05-25 at 05:36 PM ----------

Just to say, arena is a break from the usual, pvp is nothing like pve, and judging by the way you comment on it, you've never done it properly.
A rhethorycal question, ever wondered WHY random bg's are the most played? because skirmish has been disabled, and because people gear up that way, anybodies new char will gear up through battlegrounds before he does arena, period. And I know for sure everybody thinks random bg's are just a joke, hell I don't like rateds eighter, but that's cuz I'm not viable there, but tbh I like that... Rated BG is a mixture of PvE raid content and arena, which isn't good at all, considering hero of the horde ratings have been about 2300 for both seasons, I believe not many people even do rated bgs, whereas arena actually is played quite alot more.

[PizzaSHARK]

If you cant read the underlines i will clearifie my words to you. I totaly agree with the op idea that arenas shouldnt be used to balance pvp.

I just dont agree with pve being the biger part and pvp only a subproduct, that migth have been true in early vanila, and im notsaing it was, but nowaday pvp is almost, if not the same, as important as pve.

PvP is a sideshow. Ever since Blizzard realized arena as an eSport was a massive fucking joke (after TBC), it always has been. Far, far less effort and time is put into PvP than into PvE, and if there's ever a choice between PvE and PvP, they will focus on PvE. It's where all their money comes from, so it makes sense.

---------- Post added 2012-05-25 at 12:41 PM ----------

WoW Arena has been an e-Sport for longer than you've been playing I presume. WoW Arena should and has to be what blizzard balances around, if they balance around anything else wow can and will get broken. WoW Arena is coming back as an e-Sport even now, with Yaspresents NAO and Curse all hosting tournaments to popularise it, yet again. WoW still has a contract with MLG so if anything it has an ensured spot on MLG in MoP, because due to the overhaul that happened in cataclysm, it was put on pause as an e-sport for this expansion.

---------- Post added 2012-05-25 at 05:36 PM ----------

Just to say, arena is a break from the usual, pvp is nothing like pve, and judging by the way you comment on it, you've never done it properly.
A rhethorycal question, ever wondered WHY random bg's are the most played? because skirmish has been disabled, and because people gear up that way, anybodies new char will gear up through battlegrounds before he does arena, period. And I know for sure everybody thinks random bg's are just a joke, hell I don't like rateds eighter, but that's cuz I'm not viable there, but tbh I like that... Rated BG is a mixture of PvE raid content and arena, which isn't good at all, considering hero of the horde ratings have been about 2300 for both seasons, I believe not many people even do rated bgs, whereas arena actually is played quite alot more.

Honestly, no one cares about those NAO types; you can call it an eSport if you want, but anyone that plays an actual competitive eSport (DOTA/2, Brood War, even Starcraft 2) will laugh at you if you try and tell them WoW requires anywhere near as much skill, or that it's at all balanced. There's no way WoW can be an eSport as long as it's chained to PvE - and since Blizzard's said they don't want to essentially have two games in one, it's not gonna happen, either.

Random BGs are more popular than arena because they're simply more fun for more people. If you aren't one of the small handful of truly competitive classes/specs in arena that season, arena tends to be like pulling teeth once you run into players with a pulse and sentient thought processes. Would random BGs be less popular if arena skirimishes were enabled again? Maybe - but they'd still be a great deal more popular than all kinds of organized arena combined.

RBGs aren't as popular as 2v2 and 3v3 largely due to the numbers involved; anyone that's run premades in the past can tell you how big of a pain in the ass it is to assemble 10-20 people and KEEP them for more than a couple of games. But popularity isn't what you balance around, otherwise Blizzard would balance around 2v2 arenas and not 3v3 (2v2 is played a LOT more than 3v3.) You balance around what represents the best opportunity to balance the game... and that's rated BGs, not arenas.

You might not like objectives in your PvP, but like it or not... those objectives increase the skill requirement for each team, and also allow more specs and classes to be useful and valuable. Suddenly tanks become important and useful once there are flags to carry or nodes to defend. Suddenly being a glass cannon isn't necessarily a drawback. Suddenly you can play a spec whose role is pretty much just support. And with the addition of separate attack/defense PvP stats, this also opens up more options for customization - you can stack power to the nines and completely ignore defense if you'd like, because death isn't as big a deal in BGs.

Trying to say arena requires as much skill as a rated BG is like saying that team deathmatch requires as much skill as capture the flag - CTF includes every single aspect of TDM in it, on top of objectives and requirements added by the gamemode.

[rektbrah]

The issue with arena is that people are too shit at it so they hate it and complain.

[bandet]

Op, you must be confused..

Since when do they actually try to balance arena?

[Blueobelisk]

I swear to god, I saw the title and thought "this is gonna be a pizzashark post." Sure enough I saw the length of the post and, yes. I was right.

You're saying to balance around RBGs...Which isn't really balancable. I mean, let's say they balance around 3 healers, 1 prot, and 6 DPS. So now, if random BGs don't have this setup, they're basically even more fucked. So now you propose a more dungeon like queue where you pick a role? Or...?

[Divisible]

Arena is good; it might not be perfectly balanced, nor will it probably ever be. There are ways around it. You can achieve high ratings no matter what class you play, no matter what comp you play (assuming you're good). They might not be rank 1 viable comps or even gladiator comps, but you can still achieve high ratings and beat real comps with that comp. If you're worried about getting gladiator, then play a real comp. Every class has a gladiator capable comp. Posting here and complaining isn't going to help at all, ever.

[Doggyballs]

The issue with arena is that people are too shit at it so they hate it and complain.

This.

To OP: Rated Battlegrounds are one of the worst things they've implemented lol It's so easy to just power up to 2.2k. You get a higher cap from RBGs also.
Arena has, and always will be, been about comp. Blizzard doesn't like this...it's too hard for casuals to understand (what with always wanting to play with friends, no matter how awful the comp is e.g: "I play enhance and my bestest friend plays fire mage...why can't we be viable?! waaah waaah")
Hence why there is a wide range of comps available and they introduced RBGs for this reason aswell.

Don't get me wrong, I like the wide range of comps/spec/classes. It's great. But arena is the pinnacle of PvP and by transit, comp is the pinnacle of arena. Most of the things people call 'broken' or 'op' aren't, they are just counters. Comp counter/Class counter/Spec counter/PvE gear counter etc.

Arena will be much more "balanced" in MoP. The new stat, PvP Power will stop people grabbing PvE trinks for example.

Also OP, you "lol" at warriors for not having a viable spec, yet I see many more warriors over 2.2k than resto druids/enhance shamans. Warriors are in a bad place atm but I still get owned as fuck against great warrior players.

You can play what you enjoy, ofc you can. If you're good, it will work. Problem is, 80% of the people that arena aren't good enough to roll with the glads so they blame broken arena/pve gear/broken specs or classes/basically anything other than themselves. I play a game and I always notice mistakes, even if I win that game, I will ALWAYS find something I could of done better. Do I find it lame as hell when I die to a shatter > double smoke bomb in the first 20 seconds of the game? Heeeeeeell yeah I do but I don't blame mechanics or "OP ROGUEZ". I try to find ways to improve.

TL;DR - People don't like to blame themselves, it's easier to blame the game for their mistakes.

[bandet]

TL;DR - People don't like to blame themselves, it's easier to blame the game for their mistakes.

That is one of the perks of playing hunter. I can ALWAYS use it as an excuse, whether it is or isn't. They don't know anything about the class to begin with so they wouldn't know.

[Deleted]

I do agre with your post until i read the last line quoted. I just stoped reading from here down.

You do know he's right ? Pve has always been the main goal in WoW.

[g3o21]

The issue with arena is that people are too shit at it so they hate it and complain.

Yep. For me, arenas are about 60% of the game. I find them entertaining both to play and to watch. If they removed it completely i would leave WoW. Arenas have a steep learning curve in a way that it takes a little to be "mediocre" or "average", 1800ish, but it takes a whole lot of dedication and understanding what is happening in the game to be a good player or an exceptional one.

And yes, almost 99.99% of complaining comes from people that do not play arenas at a higher level. I believe they are not balancing the game around arenas alone, they try to do it both in 3v3 and raids. These are the landmarks on which the game is being balanced.

[bandet]

And yes, almost 99.99% of complaining comes from people that do not play arenas at a higher level.

And because of this, their design philosophy is completely broken.

If they balanced the game around the 1%, then anytime a player feels that their class is weak, it is because they don't yet know how to play it at its full potential. When the game is balanced around mouthbreathers, it becomes incredibly broken when anyone who isn't a mouthbreather plays it.

Players should have to better themselves to do better. Weird concept, right?