View Poll Results: Is Jaina's new character something you're looking forward to?

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  • Yes, she needs to put the war in Warcraft

    673 63.67%
  • No, she should stay 'neutral' as she has always been

    76 7.19%
  • She should take action, but not to the extent to hate the horde.

    308 29.14%
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  1. #1181
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Thrall and Varian, along with everyone in their groups actually exchange blows, but no one dies
    They actually engage in combat
    and then Jaina busts out her mage powers

    thats why i said they were neutral "more or less"
    They were not activaly waging war against each other
    Nor were they in an alliance

    They were both trying to be neutreal, and go bout their own efforts, but like throughout Warcraft history
    Old Hatrds do not die easily

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-10 at 12:35 AM ----------

    and just to clarify, I never said that Garrosh was not at fault for invading Ashenvele

    I another thread, I just expalined why people should stop saying "omgz, orcs so dumb for loosing so much supplies"
    Because them loosing supplies happneed because of events outside of their control

    Durotar is not a crappy place
    But it isnt the most lush either

    and people say, "well make Durtar better, like the Druids did with Western Plauglenads"
    Yeah, well making a dirty woodlands into a clean woodlands, is not the same as making a desert into a jungle

    The War against the Scourge cost the Horde much both in lives and supplies
    And after winning, would be a perfect time to recover and live peacefully right?
    Except the Elemental Unrest not only made it difficult for the Horde to replace supplies, but made them loose even more supplies

    The Night Elves were very reluctant to even meet with Hamuel
    and after their reps were killed by "Horde" assasins, just how willing do you think the Night Elves would negotate again?

    Here's the thing. The Barren's is not a desert. The land there is completely liveable even if you just live off the land. And that's what the orcs did. They put too much stock in the trade they did with Theramore and Mulgore, and the resources they...acquired...from Ashenvale. You say that the supplies they lost were events outside of their control. That is not so.

    They're living in a world compounded by conflict even without the unshakable Alliance v Horde deal. They had the Silithid to deal with, and the initial Naxxramas assault.if they're capable of gathering supplies for the AQ event they're more than capable of laying in stocks against other situations. I'm not saying that THIS situation is of Garrosh's making, but rather the orcs as a whole, or probably Thrall's.

    They had the four years between WC3 and the seven years that WoW has been out, for a total of ELEVEN years to try and develop their own infrastructure, but they haven't. I'm not saying they'd make Durotar or the Barrens a forest, but it could definetly be less...Barren. They've gotten themselves into war after war, conflict after conflict and they never had even the inkling of trying to make themselves self sufficient. And they have the ideal shaman x druid combo to do it if the thought even entered their heads.

    You say it was events out of their control? I call crap on that since they've never tried to improve their station other than repeatedly hacking away at Ashenvale and worsening relations with the Night Elves.

    The Alliance went through just as much, if not more, against the Scourge as the Horde, but they were able to recover because they've spent time improving their supply situation instead of building more tanks and catapults.

    And the biggest rub comes to your last question. If...big IF...Garrosh or any other Horde leader had approached Jaina about interceding on their behalf with the Night elves, they'dve found her receptive, and she'd likely have gone straight to Mal and boom bam bling, Alliance once again extends the hand of friendship.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-10 at 01:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    In a "war" which was never, ever mentioned again, in game or out of game. Is a war which is never fought a war?

    EJL

    Meh, it was mentioned...or rather the treaty it led to...in the Shattering during the scene in the Cathedral honoring all the Alliance dead.
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  2. #1182
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    And after winning, would be a perfect time to recover and live peacefully right?
    Except the Elemental Unrest not only made it difficult for the Horde to replace supplies, but made them loose even more supplies
    It was the same for the Alliance as well. The Alliance, however, did not go seeking a war. Further, Garrosh had other options. You may dismiss the idea of tapping into the Shaman and Druidic community, but it was still an option. As was trading with the Goblins and other races. Garrosh was willing to ship in huge amounts of water to Orgimmar. Which reminds me...how much of the problems the Horde face are self wrought? Orgrimmars water supply is poisoned because Garrosh engages goblins for war and their industry isn't the cleanest around.

    Garrosh refused to trade. With anyone. Even if the NElfs had been willing, Garrosh does not trade. Not "can not" trade. Won't trade. Trade is for the weak.
    He poisoned his own peoples water supply.
    He is willing to bring in huge amounts of water from Mulgore. Why not food?

    For all the talk of needing resources, theres very little in lore to suggest Garrosh is actually that interested. He's spending huge amount of resources on war and tidying up the messes he is making.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Meh, it was mentioned...or rather the treaty it led to...in the Shattering during the scene in the Cathedral honoring all the Alliance dead.
    There was a treaty. And there was indeed conflict. But there has been conflict since Vanilla. There was conflict before UC in LK, and there was conflict after UC in LK. There was not, however, any mention of a war. No indication of it. No quests. No stories and nothing to indicate a war began at UC. Fighting? Yes. The end of cooperation? Yes. A War? Varian committed an act of war in response to what he saw in the Apothecarium. Did Thrall, some one who didn't want a fight, do anything to retaliate?

    As I said, when Varian did nothing more than attack Thrall...serious, yes...does that automatically mean a state of war exists?

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-06-10 at 02:27 AM.

  3. #1183
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    As I said, when Varian did nothing more than attack Thrall...serious, yes...does that automatically mean a state of war exists?
    During the Battle for the Undercity: "I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
    The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
    I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
    What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
    ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!"

    By Thrall: "It ends like it began...
    All that we have fought for in this world is lost. The hopes and dreams carried by my father and mother... by Doomhammer... Gone..."

    Quest Text: "For too long have the Horde been left unchecked. We allowed their territories to prosper and in return for our generosity they plotted and planned our demise.

    Peace? Useless... it's gotten us nowhere. We have lost some of our greatest heroes to "peace." Let us see what battle brings.
    "

    During the Elemental Bonds: "King Varian...you wish to make war on my people?! You shall have your war, human! You will see the fury of the Horde rage through your cities! You will see your throne split in two! THIS I SWEAR!!"

    so, yes. the game went out of it's way to say war was back. I think the situation is better illustrated by ulduar's trailer, when varian and garrosh try killing each other in dalaran (a sanctuary zone lol).
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  4. #1184
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    so, yes. the game went out of it's way to say war was back. I think the situation is better illustrated by ulduar's trailer, when varian and garrosh try killing each other in dalaran (a sanctuary zone lol).
    It was a nice speech. It wasn't a declaration of war. Did Varian or thrall move armies around to fight each other? No. Was there ever any mention of a war in any source? No. Any quests? No. Any conflict that can be tied back to this "declaration"? No.

    The only thing that suggest it was anything more than what it appears to be - Varian losing his temper and attacking - is an interpretation, unsupported by any in game event or in lore information, that the situation then devolved not just into raised tensions, but into a full fledged state of war that Blizzard simply had occur in the background of the game.

    EJL

  5. #1185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    It was the same for the Alliance as well. The Alliance, however, did not go seeking a war. Further, Garrosh had other options. You may dismiss the idea of tapping into the Shaman and Druidic community, but it was still an option. As was trading with the Goblins and other races. Garrosh was willing to ship in huge amounts of water to Orgimmar. Which reminds me...how much of the problems the Horde face are self wrought? Orgrimmars water supply is poisoned because Garrosh engages goblins for war and their industry isn't the cleanest around.

    Garrosh refused to trade. With anyone. Even if the NElfs had been willing, Garrosh does not trade. Not "can not" trade. Won't trade. Trade is for the weak.
    He poisoned his own peoples water supply.
    He is willing to bring in huge amounts of water from Mulgore. Why not food?

    For all the talk of needing resources, theres very little in lore to suggest Garrosh is actually that interested. He's spending huge amount of resources on war and tidying up the messes he is making.
    Yeah the Alliance also suffered from the Scourge and the Elemental Unrest
    But they were better able to recover because their lands are more "plentiful"

    So the Horde was suffering worse supply situation because Central Kalimdor is not as lush as other areas

    Do you really think that Druidic/shammy power can turn a barren Savannah or rocky desert into a lush jungle?
    Shammys were having trouble because the Elements were going crazy
    Druids tried to do such things in the Wailing Caverns, but it came with nasty consequnces

    Mulgore itself was suffering from the drought in the Shattering.
    If the solution was so simple do you not think Thrall would have done it befor he left?
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-06-10 at 05:18 AM.

  6. #1186
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Yeah the Alliance also suffered from the Scourge and the Elemental Unrest

    But they were better able to recover because their lands are more "plentiful"
    Even if that were true...and I'll remind you that the Alliances economic woes were implemented in game while the Hordes, on the whole, were not that doesn't mean Garrosh didn't have other options.

    Trade was an option even if it couldn't be with the Night Elfs.
    Desolace, the Barrens and the Plaguelands shows what druids can do to turn barren land into a paradise.
    Durotar isn't that far from the sea...what could Garrosh have done if he'd built fishing boats instead of a navy?
    He's willing to take the Taurens water and spend huge resources to supply Orgimmar because his actions poisoned the supply there. What if he'd spent those resources shipping food, wood and other supplies?

    Garroshs excuse for war comes down to the simple fact that he wanted war. He was agitating for it ever since the LK. And it didn't take long upon his ascension for that state of affairs to come into being. He didn't need war - he had other options to obtain any resources he needed. But even if he couldn't get them anywhere else, he didn't even try.

    EJL

  7. #1187
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    I can only ever think of Jaina like this: Jaina Proudmoore.

  8. #1188
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    The Alliance went through just as much, if not more, against the Scourge as the Horde, but they were able to recover because they've spent time improving their supply situation instead of building more tanks and catapults.

    And the biggest rub comes to your last question. If...big IF...Garrosh or any other Horde leader had approached Jaina about interceding on their behalf with the Night elves, they'dve found her receptive, and she'd likely have gone straight to Mal and boom bam bling, Alliance once again extends the hand of friendship.[COLOR="red"]
    The Alliance live in better areas than the Horde, and are able to recover more effectivally
    Not because they spent time "improving ther supplies"
    Are you suggesting that the Horde under Thrall did nothing but build war machines?

    Do you really think the Night Elves would open trade routes?
    In the Shattering they were very relucatant to even meet with Hamuel.
    How do you think they would feel after their Druids were murdered by "Horde" troops

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-10 at 05:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Even if that were true...and I'll remind you that the Alliances economic woes were implemented in game while the Hordes, on the whole, were not that doesn't mean Garrosh didn't have other options.

    Trade was an option even if it couldn't be with the Night Elfs.
    Desolace, the Barrens and the Plaguelands shows what druids can do to turn barren land into a paradise.
    Durotar isn't that far from the sea...what could Garrosh have done if he'd built fishing boats instead of a navy?
    He's willing to take the Taurens water and spend huge resources to supply Orgimmar because his actions poisoned the supply there. What if he'd spent those resources shipping food, wood and other supplies?

    Garroshs excuse for war comes down to the simple fact that he wanted war. He was agitating for it ever since the LK. And it didn't take long upon his ascension for that state of affairs to come into being. He didn't need war - he had other options to obtain any resources he needed. But even if he couldn't get them anywhere else, he didn't even try.

    EJL
    Desolace was not because of the Druids
    The Cataclysm created a giant fissure that allowed water to reach the center of the land
    The Plaugelands were not "barren" like the Barrens and Durotar, they were just Plauged

    Well why is there no blame on Thrall for not doing any of those "easy" solutions
    The Orcs econmoic situation was fine and dandy until the Elemental Unrest
    All these situations seem to be very risky and need a long time to develop results
    Garrosh was itching for war
    But there is a reason why there is wipe-spread suppoirt for the war
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-06-10 at 05:25 AM.

  9. #1189
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Desolace was not because of the Druids
    The Cataclysm created a giant fissure that allowed water to reach the center of the land
    Since when has an influx of seawater been a good thing for plant life?

    If that was the reason, you'd expect Thousand Needles to be a jungle as well. I'm pretty sure the trees in Desolace were grown by the druids, not by a canyon full of salt water.

  10. #1190
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    It was a nice speech. It wasn't a declaration of war. Did Varian or thrall move armies around to fight each other? No. Was there ever any mention of a war in any source? No. Any quests? No. Any conflict that can be tied back to this "declaration"? No.
    Yes to every question. Grizzly Hills and Icecrown showcases it (which happens after Wrathgate and Undercity, lorewise) and the indication of a territorial treaty in the Shattering novel points to it.

  11. #1191
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    Since when has an influx of seawater been a good thing for plant life?

    If that was the reason, you'd expect Thousand Needles to be a jungle as well. I'm pretty sure the trees in Desolace were grown by the druids, not by a canyon full of salt water.
    May not make sense but I believe that's what Blizard cited as being the source of the regrowth there, with the druids coming in later to nurture it.

  12. #1192
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    It was a nice speech. It wasn't a declaration of war. Did Varian or thrall move armies around to fight each other? No. Was there ever any mention of a war in any source?
    Actually...

    Orgrimmar Champion says: This isn't honorable combat. I long to face my opponents in battle with my axe in hand!
    Orgrimmar Champion says: These are my enemies. YOU would be my enemy in battle! Your king has declared war on my kind!

    I have no idea why you deny this so vehemently. Yeah, it was smoothed over after the Northrend conflict... but it doesn't wash out the fact that Varian's bitchfit happened, and one side at least took it as war. If it wasn't obvious enough already.

  13. #1193
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    Actually...

    Orgrimmar Champion says: This isn't honorable combat. I long to face my opponents in battle with my axe in hand!
    Orgrimmar Champion says: These are my enemies. YOU would be my enemy in battle! Your king has declared war on my kind!

    I have no idea why you deny this so vehemently. Yeah, it was smoothed over after the Northrend conflict... but it doesn't wash out the fact that Varian's bitchfit happened, and one side at least took it as war. If it wasn't obvious enough already.

    And this is why I don't get why Garrosh fans are so dead set on deflecting blame off of him and onto others. Pretty sure everyone here knows that I'm a Varian fan all the way, and even I admit that he's far from perfect and he caused the small war during Wrath. I don't try and pass on blame because skirmishes always happen, but what he said in UC is a clear declaration of war.

    But Garrosh fans are deadset on trying to reasoning out his actions to the point that he seems like an innocent victim of circumstance. The orcs have had 10+ years to try and change Durotar into a more liveable place. Yet all they seem interested in running into Ashenvale and provoking the Night Elves. Even after the fact while he's supposedly invading to help his people, why are his quartermasters still resorting to stealing food from their own allies to feed their soldiers?

    Instead of making things better for his people this war he started has made things worse, and yet they still insist that it's not entirely his fault.
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  14. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    And this is why I don't get why Garrosh fans are so dead set on deflecting blame off of him and onto others. Pretty sure everyone here knows that I'm a Varian fan all the way, and even I admit that he's far from perfect and he caused the small war during Wrath. I don't try and pass on blame because skirmishes always happen, but what he said in UC is a clear declaration of war.

    But Garrosh fans are deadset on trying to reasoning out his actions to the point that he seems like an innocent victim of circumstance. The orcs have had 10+ years to try and change Durotar into a more liveable place. Yet all they seem interested in running into Ashenvale and provoking the Night Elves. Even after the fact while he's supposedly invading to help his people, why are his quartermasters still resorting to stealing food from their own allies to feed their soldiers?

    Instead of making things better for his people this war he started has made things worse, and yet they still insist that it's not entirely his fault.
    I'm not a garrosh fan. I hate garrosh. I hate orcs even though I'm horde (undead, I'd love for the undead to get their own faction).

    when allies are attacking garrosh I flag myself for PvP than I enter the throne room and keep emoting towards alliance priests hoping they'll understand what I am asking them.

    my objective is to get them to MC me so as I can help them killing garrosh. unfortunately they never understand (usually the alliance raid group just kills me )

    anyway.

    I hate garrosh and I am sure as hell I'll enjoy beating the crap out of him on MoP, but varian declared war on the horde, not the other way around. that's what we're defending here (because talen doesn't agree varian declared war on the horde).
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  15. #1195
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    I hate garrosh and I am sure as hell I'll enjoy beating the crap out of him on MoP, but varian declared war on the horde, not the other way around. that's what we're defending here (because talen doesn't agree varian declared war on the horde).
    It goes both ways; they both started very formal conflicts, but only Garrosh's really stuck. Varian's little war declaration was smoothed over by the end of Wrath, when he and Thrall signed an uneasy truce. Thrall hands the reins over to Garrosh, who promptly says "fuck it" to said truce and invades Ashenvale, officially starting the war as we see it... and leading to Theramore coming to the night elves' relief. That's how the canon timeline (which has been retconned a bit) has things going down.

    The difference being, Varian was able to compose himself and try for peace again despite declaring a very formal war on the Horde. Conversely, Garrosh, in typical style, took the war up to eleven.

    In other words: The current war is officially on Garrosh's head. There was a truce in place, however fragile, and he disregarded it by invading Ashenvale. The conflict preceding it, however short, was officially on Varian's head. Regardless of whether he had good reasons or not, pretending it didn't happen is just dumb when we have ample (and, well, obvious) evidence to the contrary.
    Last edited by Zaelsino; 2012-06-10 at 02:51 PM.

  16. #1196
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    It goes both ways; they both started very formal conflicts, but only Garrosh's really stuck. Varian's little war declaration was smoothed over by the end of Wrath, when he and Thrall signed an uneasy truce. Thrall hands the reins over to Garrosh, who promptly says "fuck it" to said truce and invades Ashenvale, officially starting the war as we see it... and leading to Theramore coming to the night elves' relief. That's how the canon timeline (which has been retconned a bit) has things going down.

    The difference being, Varian was able to compose himself and try for peace again despite declaring a very formal war on the Horde. Conversely, Garrosh, in typical style, took the war up to eleven.
    still, to sign a truce they had to be at war. according to wikipedia:

    "A ceasefire (or truce) is a temporary stoppage of a war in which each side agrees with the other to suspend aggressive actions."

    which means this war we have now is the same war varian started. as a garrosh hater, I won't take the guilt from him. cairne could have turned that truce into peace, but garrosh is just an unexperienced version of grom (with more muscle and less hair), so of course he had to go and ruin everything.

    still, that doesn't change the fact that varian started it. he may have half-assedly tried to halt midway, but he was the one who started it.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  17. #1197
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    still, to sign a truce they had to be at war. according to wikipedia:

    "A ceasefire (or truce) is a temporary stoppage of a war in which each side agrees with the other to suspend aggressive actions."

    which means this war we have now is the same war varian started. as a garrosh hater, I won't take the guilt from him. cairne could have turned that truce into peace, but garrosh is just an unexperienced version of grom (with more muscle and less hair), so of course he had to go and ruin everything.

    still, that doesn't change the fact that varian started it. he may have half-assedly tried to halt midway, but he was the one who started it.
    That is what a truce is...however.

    What they signed was a peace TREATY.

    And a treaty is a...an agreement which formally ends a state of war between two hostile parties. So said war was officially over.

    Proof of this is mentioned during the Cathedral scene in the Shattering when the sentinels come in to report the details of the skinning of the convoy guards with the words "the treaty has been violated".

    It is possible that the Alliance might have eventually struck the first blow. but the Cataclysm distracted them from the Horde situation as the went about trying to deal with the way it affected their lands. And while they were busy dealing with their own problems Garrosh formally shit on the treaty by personally leading an Ashenvale campaign.
    Last edited by RyanEX; 2012-06-10 at 03:17 PM.
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  18. #1198
    How did he start it? Remember the Quest: "Reports from the field" in Vengeance Landing?

    Our mission in Northrend is to destroy Arthas. The Alliance are but an obstacle that we'll crush wherever we find them.

    We've managed to destroy their easternmost fleet; but the survivors have barricaded themselves on the Derelict Strand, south of here.

    Our forces should've overwhelmed their make-shift defenses long ago, but we underestimated their will to live. Seek my officers in the field, Dark Ranger Lyana and Deathstalker Razael and get them to report on the situation.
    So the Horde can invade Ashenvale and that does not start a war. The Horde can attack Alliance Fleets in Northrend and that does not start a war. The Horde can use the plague-bomb on an Alliance Expedition at the Wrathgate and that does not start a war (because that was a splinter faction that just looked like Horde and talked like Horde and used a Horde-developed Weapon but in no way ever was considered part of the Horde because Horde are the good guys).
    But when a Human king says: "Eff you!" after seeing the experiments the Horde performed on Alliance soldiers then he started a war. Because words are nasty and stuff and the Horde just wanted to play and the Alliance are just meanies and spoilsports (Triple Exclamation Mark).

  19. #1199
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    That's kind of exactly what Varian cited when he officially declared war on the Horde. All of these backstabbings happened while the factions were supposedly at "peace" -- Varian had enough, and made "battle" official.

    I didn't say he wasn't justified.

  20. #1200
    Just want to point this out.

    The Horde and the Alliance have been at war since Admiral Proudmoore attacked the Horde. Admiral Proudmoore was the king of Kul'tiras but he was also the Grand Admiral of the Alliance.

    Basically after this ended with Admiral Proudmoore's defeat and death the Alliance and Horde have been in a "cold war." You can even look at it as North Korea and South Korea technically only had a hold fire treaty. The Korean war never has technically ended.

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