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  1. #1

    So it seems rogues are fine

    Last MOP patch changes :

    Sinister Strike damage was increased by 30%.


    Combat

    Revealing Strike damage was increased by 25%.


    And this :

    WHC_ROGUE_3 - Very fast daggers no longer exist. Any dagger should be fine to equip in either hand.



    I hope that once people are testing level 90 talents they can express that they are not very...exciting.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    Last MOP patch changes :

    Sinister Strike damage was increased by 30%.


    Combat

    Revealing Strike damage was increased by 25%.


    And this :

    WHC_ROGUE_3 - Very fast daggers no longer exist. Any dagger should be fine to equip in either hand.



    I hope that once people are testing level 90 talents they can express that they are not very...exciting.
    There is not much more than can be said. The dev team is operating on a different wavelength from the playerbase.

    The dev team views the Rogue 90 talents "breaking rules" while to Rogue players the 90 talents are base line abilities given to other classes/specs. This is unfortunately a hard obstacle to overcome when the dev team sees things so diametrically differently.

  3. #3
    Rogues are far from fine if you ask me. Combat has been made even more simple and less exciting then it already is, Assassination looks rather clunky with the sudden proc being thrown into the mix and Subtlety has a major issue regarding the bleeds. These are mechanic-related problems so number tweaks aren't going to change anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    I hope that once people are testing level 90 talents they can express that they are not very...exciting.
    Eh, 2 of the talents look exciting enough to me. The removal of Misdirect's cooldown should really be baseline. I'd put Shroud of Concealment there instead.

    But I'm happy Sinister Strike got buffed at least.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  4. #4
    well, I'm just glad to be able to duel wield big weapons as combat now. ^w^ but... I wonder how the 90 talents effect pve/pvp

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde Wonderton View Post
    well, I'm just glad to be able to duel wield big weapons as combat now. ^w^ but... I wonder how the 90 talents effect pve/pvp
    Well I'm not saying it's impossible, but at the moment it's still a loss because of the percentage based poison application. If you want to do your best possible DPS you still want a 1.8 dagger in your offhand =/

    But alas, it's not as much of a loss as it is currently now on live. But a loss is still a loss.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  6. #6
    The tooltip speaks of DAGGERS. You still can't offhand an axe, mace, or sword, without losing a lot of dps.
    In fact, you actually can't use a 1.8 in your offhand instead of a 1.4 without losing damage- they just changed all the 1.4s into 1.8s.


    I will say that our top tier of talents doesn't seem super rule-breaky to me. I mean, the core limitations on a rogue have always been:

    -> Combo Points
    -> Physical Damage (armor limits our damage)
    -> No resistance to CCs
    -> Ineffective at range
    -> No gap closer
    -> No dispel

    Combo points are mostly stupid because no one else gets this bitter pill, and it's hard to figure out exactly what we get in compensation. I mean, is it like, if you have stealth, then you are married to combo points? Like, sneaking around = combo points? The blue post talking about this with the famous "unleash the power" line, that probably drew a lot of ire, because the rogue finishers never felt like they were super awesome compared to say, obliterate, or arcane blast, or templar's verdict, or quite honestly anyone else's moves at all. Not to say our dps was amazing, but nothing about our finishers stood out. Maybe they are more awesome on the beta, they sure could be.

    Anyway, physical damage (armor), is gotten around two ways: find weakness, and envenom. Envenom on live is really hard to use as anything but mutilate, and find weakness is of course sub only. Combat on live is the only damage spec in the game with no way around armor. In the beta, this is pretty much the same, with the addition of the shadowed blades cooldown. My point is- no talents get away from this.

    While icebound makes you immune to stuns, and charge lets you temporarily ignore snares, and ferals ignore roots and snares and polymorphs (and most druids ignore the first two), and mages blink out of stuns, and everyone in the universe has a fear break, rogues are alone in not having a way to deal with the scariest of CCs. But, look! Burst of Speed is our first "rule breaker" here. It may not end up being a good move (personally I think it will be the favored move of that tier), but it definitely allows us to have a little bit of the power of the feral, though granted it is much more expensive than theirs (and also we don't get the gap closer).

    We have to take two talents to do anything at range- deadly throw can apply a snare or another utility debuff, and shuriken throw can build a combo point. I would say that this feels a little bit like a rule-break (well, the shuriken- deadly throw needs to be baseline), and say that they are probably on target with that one.

    Shadowstep is our gap closer. On beta, it's probably the worst in the game, with a huge cooldown and no answer to targets that are permanently immune to snares (rets and DKs, at the very least, I'm sure plenty of ranged will be good at this too). In fact, I'm betting that we are mostly expected to bring a 5 point KS to bear the very moment that we shadowstep, and then dump our energy into backstabs during the stun unless peeled, making it a very strange version of charge. In any event, this sort of feels "rulebreaking", like the combo points, in the sense that giving women the vote does- sure, you changed the rules, but that really should always have been how things were done.

    We did eventually get an enrage dispel. I think it needs to dispel ALL enrages, given the cooldown it has, and of course, it is a double duty move now- it is the enrage dispel, but also the utility application move, likely snares for a lot of pvp. And the BEST enrage was just made not an enrage anymore- no more shivving the hpal so I can gouge or blind him, he'll just be immune to all my CC for the full long-ass duration of Unholy Frenzy, and of course, I won't be able to take it off the unholy. Presumably they will balance the DK around getting the benefits from the move always, but will they really balance them around the CC-proof effect of it? In any event, getting a magic-eat ability would be pretty great for a talent point.


    I think that the redirect one needs to just be "combo points on the rogue" instead of "dork with globals".

    I also would like a physical-copy move like the DKs have the magic-copy move. Or riposte or ghostly, those moves ruled :P

  7. #7
    I don't think versatility should be baseline. It's too weak for a talent but too strong for baseline. It's a good candidate for a glyph. Shurikan toss should be baseline. Anticipation is a sufficiently interesting and exciting talent for level 90, imo.

    Deadly throw should also be baseline with the interrupt (at any combo points) be added as a glyph. The spell itself doesn't fit in with that tier of talents.

    General mechanics, rogues are fine. I think people are a little too worked up about the SV change, it's not THAT bad for pve. I'll still agree it's not the right way to go about encouraging rupture.

    Honestly, I'd like to see poison damage and SnD turned down a notch or two to shift damage away from autoattack-sourced--specifically into finishers. Make them feel powerful. These are not mechanics issues, though. They are numbers issues.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    I don't think versatility should be baseline. It's too weak for a talent but too strong for baseline. It's a good candidate for a glyph. Shurikan toss should be baseline. Anticipation is a sufficiently interesting and exciting talent for level 90, imo.

    Deadly throw should also be baseline with the interrupt (at any combo points) be added as a glyph. The spell itself doesn't fit in with that tier of talents.

    General mechanics, rogues are fine. I think people are a little too worked up about the SV change, it's not THAT bad for pve. I'll still agree it's not the right way to go about encouraging rupture.

    Honestly, I'd like to see poison damage and SnD turned down a notch or two to shift damage away from autoattack-sourced--specifically into finishers. Make them feel powerful. These are not mechanics issues, though. They are numbers issues.
    Based on the little information we have Versatility is the strongest of the three Rogue talents. But it indeed isn't strong enough to be a level 90 talent compared to other classes. Anticipation and Shuriken Toss as is are really mediocre, worse than many of us thought.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    I don't think versatility should be baseline. It's too weak for a talent but too strong for baseline. It's a good candidate for a glyph. Shurikan toss should be baseline. Anticipation is a sufficiently interesting and exciting talent for level 90, imo.

    Deadly throw should also be baseline with the interrupt (at any combo points) be added as a glyph. The spell itself doesn't fit in with that tier of talents.

    General mechanics, rogues are fine. I think people are a little too worked up about the SV change, it's not THAT bad for pve. I'll still agree it's not the right way to go about encouraging rupture.

    Honestly, I'd like to see poison damage and SnD turned down a notch or two to shift damage away from autoattack-sourced--specifically into finishers. Make them feel powerful. These are not mechanics issues, though. They are numbers issues.
    Mmm, either Deadly Throw or Shuriken Toss should be baseline. Right we can close the gap by slowing with DT or throwing and applying crippling. But both those skills are gone no: DT is a talent and throw is removed and the new one doesn't apply Crippling afaik. I don't know if ST is gonna add the poison from your weapon though, I kinda hope it does.

    Versatility sits a bit strange with me, 1 minute cooldown on Redirect was WAY too long to begin with, adding a top tier talent that removes the cooldown seems a bit... Dunno, it doesn't sit right.

    Anticipation sounds kinda strange and inferior to Versatility, let's say you have 5 CPs and and 2 Anticipation charges, when you use a finisher on an enemy you'll use a 2 CP finisher and only 2 CPs will transfer aswell? Or am I just not getting the talent at all? It's basicly an even clunkier mechanic for switching targets then CPs already were in PvP, it'll add a better burst possibility I guess. Get 5 CPs and 5 Anticipation charges, kidney someone else, get S&D up to max duration, smokebomb and dance? It sounds a bit strange tbh.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    I don't think versatility should be baseline. It's too weak for a talent but too strong for baseline. It's a good candidate for a glyph. Shurikan toss should be baseline. Anticipation is a sufficiently interesting and exciting talent for level 90, imo.
    Anticipation on beta atm... sucks.

    My understanding of it is: When you gain a charge, you get a buff that lasts 15 seconds (both IN and OUT of combat). After the 15 seconds, all built up charges fade.

    The charges do not proc from SnD either (or recup, but that one is expected).

    All in all, it's got VERY limited use it would seem. Fading in combat and not working with every spec's primary dps finisher is kind of dumb.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    The tooltip speaks of DAGGERS. You still can't offhand an axe, mace, or sword, without losing a lot of dps.
    In fact, you actually can't use a 1.8 in your offhand instead of a 1.4 without losing damage- they just changed all the 1.4s into 1.8s.
    Deadly Poison proccing (and thus proccing instant) on both weapons makes poison damage from the offhand a bit less of a concern. Combined with the superior damage of Slow/Slow during killing spree (now 7 hits instead of five) and with Killing Spree still having an approximately one minute cooldown via Restless Blades (Also, energy regen from Combat Potency procs more with slower weapons), Slow/Slow combat looks -passable- in theory (on par with 2h Frost). It might even have superior burst.

  12. #12
    I think people are a little too worked up about the SV change, it's not THAT bad for pve. I'll still agree it's not the right way to go about encouraging rupture.
    People aren't worked up about it because of pve, it's because it completely kills the spec for pvp.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    Mmm, either Deadly Throw or Shuriken Toss should be baseline. Right we can close the gap by slowing with DT or throwing and applying crippling. But both those skills are gone no: DT is a talent and throw is removed and the new one doesn't apply Crippling afaik. I don't know if ST is gonna add the poison from your weapon though, I kinda hope it does.

    Versatility sits a bit strange with me, 1 minute cooldown on Redirect was WAY too long to begin with, adding a top tier talent that removes the cooldown seems a bit... Dunno, it doesn't sit right.

    Anticipation sounds kinda strange and inferior to Versatility, let's say you have 5 CPs and and 2 Anticipation charges, when you use a finisher on an enemy you'll use a 2 CP finisher and only 2 CPs will transfer aswell? Or am I just not getting the talent at all? It's basicly an even clunkier mechanic for switching targets then CPs already were in PvP, it'll add a better burst possibility I guess. Get 5 CPs and 5 Anticipation charges, kidney someone else, get S&D up to max duration, smokebomb and dance? It sounds a bit strange tbh.

    The entire Rogue tree needs a massive re-vamp. It took me all of but five minutes to figure out how certain talents are traps (the well known one is Leeching and Paralytic poisons "choices")

    Shuriken Toss has a chance to apply both a lethal and non lethal poison. Sounds good in theory until you realize that most PVE Rogues will be using Leeching as a non lethal poison. What is wrong with that? Well, Leeching only heals form melee strikes...Shuriken Toss is a ranged attack that replacse throw. The way the Rogue talents are setup they have cascading effect which tunnels you into picking certain talents or they work against the talents you pick.

    Anticipation is inferior to Versatility, and because of how small of a window you have to work with (damaging finisher too!) it is really lackluster. Sadly, this had the most promise, but turns out to be the shortest of the midgets. :P

    Versatility is by default the go to choice at 90 for PVE Rogues because frankly Shuriken Toss does not do enough damage or have utility value currently for PVE Rogues as it currently stands.

    Distraught by the Rogue talents overall is an understatement.
    Last edited by Mafic; 2012-06-02 at 10:27 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Deadly Poison proccing (and thus proccing instant) on both weapons makes poison damage from the offhand a bit less of a concern. Combined with the superior damage of Slow/Slow during killing spree (now 7 hits instead of five) and with Killing Spree still having an approximately one minute cooldown via Restless Blades (Also, energy regen from Combat Potency procs more with slower weapons), Slow/Slow combat looks -passable- in theory (on par with 2h Frost). It might even have superior burst.
    That's not what normalization means. A 1.8 offhand has a 20% chance to proc combat potency, a 2.6 offhand has around a 29% chance to proc combat potency. Combat has no attacks that strike with the offhand other than killing spree, and CP procs from main gauche are not normalized. Combat potency doesn't favor fast or slow offhands, it's completely neutral.
    Last edited by Pikapika; 2012-06-03 at 12:18 AM.

  15. #15
    Rogues have been fucked all beta But now we're getting to the point at even the they'll fix it later in beta people are worried. Reroll or quit are the options blizzard is giving. They haven't fixed shit in months of beta they've only done things to make things worse.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Pikapika View Post
    That's not what normalization means. A 1.8 offhand has a 20% chance to proc combat potency, a 2.6 offhand has around a 29% chance to proc combat potency. Combat has no attacks that strike with the offhand other than killing spree, and CP procs from main gauche are not normalized. Combat potency doesn't favor fast or slow offhands, it's completely neutral.
    I'm sorry, I knew that, but the way I typed it out made it look dumb.

    * What I meant was that Combat Potency procs more than 20% with Slow Weapons, making it par-the-course with fast weapons.

    Slow/Slow still does increase burst damage via Killing Spree.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Rogues have been fucked all beta But now we're getting to the point at even the they'll fix it later in beta people are worried. Reroll or quit are the options blizzard is giving. They haven't fixed shit in months of beta they've only done things to make things worse.
    Basically. I think I'm going to reroll lock, demo is looking pretty fun. After many years of rogue it's about fucking time they fix them and finally add cps to the rogue and remove this shitty redirect cd and talent. Overall I am very disappointed, Cata was horrendous to play a rogue, forced to sub in pvp after so many years of mut I seriously died a little inside. I personally love the 'choices' we are being given in the talent tree's rofl... a joke at best. I don't expect Blizz will revamp anything much, they don't wanna point out how retarded they are.

    So much shit should just be baseline and balance the numbers around that.. christ.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Communicate View Post
    the 'choices' we are being given in the talent tree's rofl
    Hey, they're good choices.

    You get to CHOOSE which of the abilities we've had since BC you want to lose!

    Would you rather lose Deadly Throw or Combat Readiness? Prep or Shadowstep? SO MANY GOOD DECISIONS. ROGUES ARE CLEARLY FINE.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Hey, they're good choices.

    You get to CHOOSE which of the abilities we've had since BC you want to lose!

    Would you rather lose Deadly Throw or Combat Readiness?
    Yeah, we totally had CR in Burning Crusade...join Date Sep2011 ftw...
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    I'm sorry, I knew that, but the way I typed it out made it look dumb.

    * What I meant was that Combat Potency procs more than 20% with Slow Weapons, making it par-the-course with fast weapons.

    Slow/Slow still does increase burst damage via Killing Spree.
    Which is completely negligible compared to the increase in poison damage from a fast offhand.

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