[Movies] Star Wars: Why is it considered the good guys won in the end?

[Gamdwelf]

Pretty much this. RotJ was not the end of the conflict.

Yes, but its still considered as the good guys winning because the sith are destroyed and the empire is now collapsing, so that is a win for the good guys.

[Duncanîdaho]

Pretty much this. RotJ was not the end of the conflict.

I agree. They(the jedi anyway) are celebrating because they think the ancient Sith race is finally gone for good. There is no one left alive who knows and can carry on the ancient Sith teachings. Palpatine greedily kept the information to himself for power, we when he died the information died with him. This is why it was thought until the expanded universe was written that "the good guys one" there were no more Sith. Any conflict that comes up in the future would either involve warring systems, or dark jedi, but no more sith, ever. They thought they had won the war finally after thousands and thousands of years.

Once the EU was written we found out that this was not the case. I don't want to go further then this as to not spoil anything (I've been avoiding it all thread) if someone is planning on reading up sometime.

[Deleted]

In my opinion the good guys were the confederacy of the independent systems, wich lost the clone wars. After wining the war the evil and corrupted republic became the empire, and they were oposed by the rebelion, wich wanted to reestablish the republic. They were equaly as bad.

[Gamdwelf]

In my opinion the good guys were the confederacy of the independent systems, wich lost the clone wars. After wining the war the evil and corrupted republic became the empire, and they were oposed by the rebelion, wich wanted to reestablish the republic. They were equaly as bad.

The confederacy were a bunch of puppets, and pawns in Palpatines game.

[Rendia]

The confederacy were a bunch of puppets, and pawns in Palpatines game.

Yes, but they were just the fore-runners of the Rebel Alliance. Add to that Bail Organa and a few other systems, and you have the Rebel Alliance of the Original Trilogy.

Also, I heard they were making another Trilogy of movies. Is this true? If so, I hope it is the Thrawn trilogy. Would be most epic indeed.

[ijffdrie]

Yes, but they were just the fore-runners of the Rebel Alliance. Add to that Bail Organa and a few other systems, and you have the Rebel Alliance of the Original Trilogy.

Also, I heard they were making another Trilogy of movies. Is this true? If so, I hope it is the Thrawn trilogy. Would be most epic indeed.

I doubt it's Thrawn. Those books would be really tough to adapt to a movie.

[Gamdwelf]

If they were they could do it with the origianl actors and do the stuff that is happening in the novels now, when Luke, Leia and Han have grown kids.

[Rendia]

If they were they could do it with the origianl actors and do the stuff that is happening in the novels now, when Luke, Leia and Han have grown kids.

That's missing a LOT of back story, however. Thrawn is still a few year after, ofc, but it is a GREAT series that shows that under a brilliant leader the Empire is still something to be messed with.

[Duravian]

It's kinda true. The Sith return once again as the Jedi Order is reborn continuing the cycle... So Anakin being the chosen one is kinda useless, he doesn't really change anything.

[Rendia]

It's kinda true. The Sith return once again as the Jedi Order is reborn continuing the cycle... So Anakin being the chosen one is kinda useless, he doesn't really change anything.

Yes he did.

Luke became the embodiment of "balanced force". He was good, then went evil, and became good again. He changed the way the Jedi order worked to make them much more neutral rather than good.

Think of it like this. Old Jedi Order = Lawful Good; Sith Empire = Lawful Evil; New Jedi Order = Lawful Neutral.

[Drihan]

A lot of very interesting information here, helps to resolve some of my own confusion around the subject of how the Empire just died out after Ep. 6.

There is just 1 thing that really bugs me: The Rule of Two says there can only exist 2 Sith at any one time, 1 Master and his/her apprentice. If you look at SWTOR then everyone can become a Sith Lord, Darth, Master w/e and the Wookiepedia page explains it in the beginning, but how come there can't be more Sith? I mean, since there will always be people around that are force sensitive and it's reasonable to assume that at least some of them will at some point learn of this ability they have, and then train themselves to be able to use it more effectively. So what happens to these force sensitives aligned with the Empire? Are they killed? Do they go into hiding? Are they put into shackles and hidden away until the current Master dies and his/her apprentice needs an apprentice? These self-taught force sensitives will have information about the force in some form or another, so why weren't there any uprisings of these force sensitives wanting to claim power on their own? The Empire's force sensitives are devious, cruel and have dominating personalities, so it's safe to assume they will have an inherent need for power and the greed to kill people to increase that power. At least that is the general idea of an Empire aligned force sensitive, so how can there be only two?

I haven't read any books or novels from the Star Wars universe, I only know what I have heard from people, read on the forums and learned through the movies, so if someone could give an explanation for this, in my opinion, breach in logic, please do.

[Frontenac]

There is an insane amount of them, but the ones that probably built best upon the movies as a sequel was the Thrawn trilogy by Timothy Zahn (probably the series with the least detractors).

I absolutely loved the Thrawn trilogy. Too bad a lot of things in those books aren't good anymore since episodes I,II, and III. Especially the clones. In Zahn's novel, it is implied that the clones were made by "Clone Masters" who were the enemies of the Republic during the Clone Wars. They were also supposed to be almost mindless. Now we know the clones were on the Republic's side and were not mindless at all.

---------- Post added 2012-06-15 at 02:05 AM ----------

Yes he did.

Luke became the embodiment of "balanced force". He was good, then went evil, and became good again. He changed the way the Jedi order worked to make them much more neutral rather than good.

Think of it like this. Old Jedi Order = Lawful Good; Sith Empire = Lawful Evil; New Jedi Order = Lawful Neutral.

I would say that the main characteristic of the "Old" Jedi Order (the Order changed a lot through time) was its rigidity. They were also part of the Republic government in a way. So you're right, they were lawful good. The New Jedi Order that Luke founded was less rigid (Ex: Jedi could marry) and much more independant from the New Republic. I would say it was more Neutral Good.

---------- Post added 2012-06-15 at 02:22 AM ----------

Yes, but they were just the fore-runners of the Rebel Alliance. Add to that Bail Organa and a few other systems, and you have the Rebel Alliance of the Original Trilogy.

Also, I heard they were making another Trilogy of movies. Is this true? If so, I hope it is the Thrawn trilogy. Would be most epic indeed.

If Lucas makes another trilogy, I expect a lot of bitching from disgruntled fan because it will not be as they want it to be.. Lucas does not care a lot about the Expanded Universe. He will take what he likes in it, but will do as he likes. It's his story afterall. So forget about Thrawn, Mara Jade, Palpatine clones, the Yuuzhan Vong, etc. as we had to forget about Victory-class Stardestroyers, Dreadnaughts, Garm bel Iblis and so on for the prequel.

I've heard that if Lucas makes another trilogy, it will be set decades after Return of the Jedi, with old Luke, Leia and Han Solo, if they are in the movie at all. In my opinion, he should not. The six movies we have now are Anakin's story. It has a beginning and an end which is fine. Why not make a different movie with different characters in the same Universe? Start a new story arc? It would much more interesting. That's what I liked in KotOR.

[Drihan]

I've heard that if Lucas makes another trilogy, it will be set decades after Return of the Jedi, with old Luke, Leia and Han Solo, if they are in the movie at all. In my opinion, he should not. The six movies we have now are Anakin's story. It has a beginning and an end which is fine. Why not make a different movie with different characters in the same Universe? Start a new story arc? It would much more interesting. That's what I liked in KotOR.

That would be a dream come true. The movies can't be set in the same time period though, as from episode 4, 5 and 6 it's like the entire galaxy's focus is on this war between the Rebels and the Empire. The time after Anakin's story ended is not really that interesting (to me), what I'm more interested about is how the galaxy was like before it.

[Deleted]

the following post contains a healthy dose of cynicism and/or comedy. if you're allergic to that, you might still want to read it, because entertainment shouldn't be taken that seriously.

Okay, first off, the Rebel Alliance was not really related to the confederacy. basically, after palpatine got that extreme power the EP1 comic relief gave him, a number of people were understandably worried that the chancellor would not give up that power, because of addiction to power and the master plan to bring back the sith and all those other minor details (although they didn't know about palpatine being a darth). so a bunch of senators started coming together in secrecy to discuss how to get palpatine to surrender his power. of course, if you just watched the cinema version and then gouged your eyes out because of the pure agony it apparently gave most people, you wouldn't know this because it was done in a deleted scene that Lucas thought was very important for the tie-in with the original trilogy. of course, because noone cares about politics in an action movie and because people were already getting bored 2 minutes after the space battle, they cut it out of the theatrical release, meaning people who didn't buy the DVD didn't get that pretty important bit of info. after Sidious reformed the empire, the senators who came together decided to form the rebel alliance we now know.

secondly, about force sensitive: most force sensitives didn't actually know they were one until Luke gave the jedi order a cold reboot, or they remained hidden because, you know, order 66 and such. there were actually a bunch of dark jedi, but they weren't considered sith because you just couldn't have more than 2 siths under the rule of 2, so it was basically Loophole abuse. and Luke didn't know he was force sensitive until kenobi revealed his hidden past to him, so many other force sensitives didn't know it either. it's just like most people that are above average flexible IRL don't know it because there's not really a reason to test it in normal life.

finally, the end of the empire is explained in the Thrawn trilogy. Sidious had a rare skill called battle meditation, which basically turned him into an omniscient gathering tank of battle information that can coordinate and control the flow of battle. it's like a hive mind, except instead of zerg you got a bunch of sentient humans and sometimes aliens that were lead by an evil mastermind. he used it during the battle for Endor, but once Vader threw him down the pit, it was solved and the rebels were winning. in addition, that giant ship you saw crashing into the Death Star II was the Executor, darth vader's flagship. and just like the pentagon, it contained some of the best strategic minds of the Empire, because just like the pentagon, it was the fastest way to high leadership. so not only did cho'gall lose his smart head, it also suffered a stroke in the other head. after the empire lost most of their smart forces there, other rebel fleets and armies went and swiftly pushed back the Empire to the outer reaches of the galaxy.

[Gamdwelf]

the following post contains a healthy dose of cynicism and/or comedy. if you're allergic to that, you might still want to read it, because entertainment shouldn't be taken that seriously.

Okay, first off, the Rebel Alliance was not really related to the confederacy. basically, after palpatine got that extreme power the EP1 comic relief gave him, a number of people were understandably worried that the chancellor would not give up that power, because of addiction to power and the master plan to bring back the sith and all those other minor details (although they didn't know about palpatine being a darth). so a bunch of senators started coming together in secrecy to discuss how to get palpatine to surrender his power. of course, if you just watched the cinema version and then gouged your eyes out because of the pure agony it apparently gave most people, you wouldn't know this because it was done in a deleted scene that Lucas thought was very important for the tie-in with the original trilogy. of course, because noone cares about politics in an action movie and because people were already getting bored 2 minutes after the space battle, they cut it out of the theatrical release, meaning people who didn't buy the DVD didn't get that pretty important bit of info. after Sidious reformed the empire, the senators who came together decided to form the rebel alliance we now know.

secondly, about force sensitive: most force sensitives didn't actually know they were one until Luke gave the jedi order a cold reboot, or they remained hidden because, you know, order 66 and such. there were actually a bunch of dark jedi, but they weren't considered sith because you just couldn't have more than 2 siths under the rule of 2, so it was basically Loophole abuse. and Luke didn't know he was force sensitive until kenobi revealed his hidden past to him, so many other force sensitives didn't know it either. it's just like most people that are above average flexible IRL don't know it because there's not really a reason to test it in normal life.

finally, the end of the empire is explained in the Thrawn trilogy. Sidious had a rare skill called battle meditation, which basically turned him into an omniscient gathering tank of battle information that can coordinate and control the flow of battle. it's like a hive mind, except instead of zerg you got a bunch of sentient humans and sometimes aliens that were lead by an evil mastermind. he used it during the battle for Endor, but once Vader threw him down the pit, it was solved and the rebels were winning. in addition, that giant ship you saw crashing into the Death Star II was the Executor, darth vader's flagship. and just like the pentagon, it contained some of the best strategic minds of the Empire, because just like the pentagon, it was the fastest way to high leadership. so not only did cho'gall lose his smart head, it also suffered a stroke in the other head. after the empire lost most of their smart forces there, other rebel fleets and armies went and swiftly pushed back the Empire to the outer reaches of the galaxy.

Amazing, love it, its all the stuff I wanted to say but was too lazy to write up.