The trend of raiding Releases in 3 steps.

[Deleted]

Step 1: Make a very lengthy Tier that has many easy bosses and many hard bosses as well. It will be long and it will stay for long because it is the beginning of the expansion.

Examples: Tier 11, Nax2 + Ulduar. Plenty of bosses. Plenty of easy of bosses. And Plenty of more challenging bosses.

Step 2: Make an intermission raid that is the most challenging of them all without as many bosses. People will have learned their classes and they will also not have time to do as much progresssion since they will have both the previous and the next Tier to deal with.

Examples. Firelands, ToC. Fewer bosses. Fewer totally easy bosses. And one very challenging boss.

Step 3: Make the final raid which will be the easiest. People will feel they drop many bosses - and the nerfs will help with that; nerfs that have started from the end of Tier of Step 2 - but they will be easy to down and one boss will be challenging. Make the people feel they do something but that they complete it as well. We don't want them to feel they go to the next expansion with things left to do.


PS. I realize that Nax is a weird example being put with Ulduar together but I believe it deserves it since it didn't feel as a real release, it was mostly a "small filler" to design Ulduar, so I believe it served as a part of Step 1.


So yeah, I'm really surprised people are surprised DS gets nerfs or is not as challenging or interesting as others. It is by design like that so people don't feel they go to the next expansion with things left to do. They want to make the world feel "done" for as many people as possible.

[Sepyshfan]

Step 1: Make a very lengthy Tier that has many easy bosses and many hard bosses as well. It will be long and it will stay for long because it is the beginning of the expansion.

Examples: Tier 11, Nax2 + Ulduar. Plenty of bosses. Plenty of easy of bosses. And Plenty of more challenging bosses.

Step 2: Make an intermission raid that is the most challenging of them all without as many bosses. People will have learned their classes and they will also not have time to do as much progresssion since they will have both the previous and the next Tier to deal with.

Examples. Firelands, ToC. Fewer bosses. Fewer totally easy bosses. And one very challenging boss.

Step 3: Make the final raid which will be the easiest. People will feel they drop many bosses - and the nerfs will help with that; nerfs that have started from the end of Tier of Step 2 - but they will be easy to down and one boss will be challenging. Make the people feel they do something but that they complete it as well. We don't want them to feel they go to the next expansion with things left to do.


PS. I realize that Nax is a weird example being put with Ulduar together but I believe it deserves it since it didn't feel as a real release, it was mostly a "small filler" to design Ulduar, so I believe it served as a part of Step 1.


So yeah, I'm really surprised people are surprised DS gets nerfs or is not as challenging or interesting as others. It is by design like that so people don't feel they go to the next expansion with things left to do. They want to make the world feel "done" for as many people as possible.

So by your logic ICC and Sunwell was easy..

Mkay.

[klydefrogz]

So by your logic ICC and Sunwell was easy..

Mkay.

Not only that but ToC is considered "hard" on this list. The only difficult boss in there was the last one, and he was easy unless it was on heroic. The rest of the bosses were complete jokes.

[Deleted]

Not only that but ToC is considered "hard" on this list. The only difficult boss in there was the last one, and he was easy unless it was on heroic. The rest of the bosses were complete jokes.

Unless it was on 25man as well. But I think you overreact. Unless you were in a very hard core guild, you wouldn't find the twins very easy or even 10man anub.

[ripponesan]

These are wild speculations and far from reality dude. Maybe you should adjust your sight on things, seems you got a bad angle.

[Daerth]

Unless it was on 25man as well. But I think you overreact. Unless you were in a very hard core guild, you wouldn't find the twins very easy or even 10man anub.

TOC was very very easy. I can't even begin to fathom why you'd say it was harder than Ulduar... not the normal modes and definitely not the hard modes. Except for maybe Anub, but then -- Algalon and Yogg +0 say hi?

Also, ICC whilst not particularly hard on normal, was certainly harder on HC than TOC.

In short, TOC was the worst.


I can see what you're trying to do here, but your logic is way off and your post is full of misinformation. Just because you say so, doesn't make it true. The general idea may be on to something (though I certainly don't agree) but you could put more effort into doing some research before posting things like this.

[Eshua]

. Unless you were in a very hard core guild, you wouldn't find the twins very easy.

Door Strat. Made this a joke, even for mediocre hard mode guilds.

[Kharli]

Step 1: Make a very lengthy Tier that has many easy bosses and many hard bosses as well. It will be long and it will stay for long because it is the beginning of the expansion.

Examples: Tier 11, Nax2 + Ulduar. Plenty of bosses. Plenty of easy of bosses. And Plenty of more challenging bosses.

Step 2: Make an intermission raid that is the most challenging of them all without as many bosses. People will have learned their classes and they will also not have time to do as much progresssion since they will have both the previous and the next Tier to deal with.

Examples. Firelands, ToC. Fewer bosses. Fewer totally easy bosses. And one very challenging boss.

Step 3: Make the final raid which will be the easiest. People will feel they drop many bosses - and the nerfs will help with that; nerfs that have started from the end of Tier of Step 2 - but they will be easy to down and one boss will be challenging. Make the people feel they do something but that they complete it as well. We don't want them to feel they go to the next expansion with things left to do.


PS. I realize that Nax is a weird example being put with Ulduar together but I believe it deserves it since it didn't feel as a real release, it was mostly a "small filler" to design Ulduar, so I believe it served as a part of Step 1.


So yeah, I'm really surprised people are surprised DS gets nerfs or is not as challenging or interesting as others. It is by design like that so people don't feel they go to the next expansion with things left to do. They want to make the world feel "done" for as many people as possible.

uhm this only applied to Cataclysm..NOT Wrath...

[Deleted]

TOC was very very easy. I can't even begin to fathom why you'd say it was harder than Ulduar

Yes, but the problem here is, I didn't say it was harder than ulduar. That's something you pulled out of nowhere.

I said Step 2 had fewer easy bosses.

That doesn't mean Step 1 has fewer hard bosses or that is easy.

In fact it is very possible that Step 1 is the hardest.


edit: But I have to mention that IMO, the "hardest of all" appears to be on Step 2. If it's just "1 boss" it may not make the whole raid look hard, but it might still be the hardest.

[Daerth]

Erm..sorry but what you throw at this guy, goes right back at you (or any of us if you so want): "Just because you say so, doesn't make it true".

Which was my point exactly, I wasn't trying to impose my opinion or anything. I agree with you on that TOC felt more like a filler than a proper raid and I don't think you can compare it with the others both because of the difficulty as well as the fact that it only had 5 bosses

[Deleted]

Which was my point exactly, I wasn't trying to impose my opinion or anything.

I don't understand why you have to be so aggressive in the first place. I had an opinion. Nobody tried to impose it to you either.

" I can't even begin to fathom",

really? take a chill pill.

[Deleted]

edit: But I have to mention that IMO, the "hardest of all" appears to be on Step 2. If it's just "1 boss" it may not make the whole raid look hard, but it might still be the hardest.

So you are saying that Anub'arak was the hardest boss in Wotlk?

Like a previous poster said, this theory of yours only applies to Cataclysm..

[Daerth]

Yes, but the problem here is, I didn't say it was harder than ulduar. That's something you pulled out of nowhere.

My apologies then, I may have misunderstood. But the point det made still stands, TOC was hardly a raid and if anything (of course, this can be argued) had only 1 really hard boss.

Just thinking back to it actually, the only thing we were having problems on Anub HC in 25 was the tanking mechanics which I thought were a bit silly (i.e. the requirement to have a fully block capped tank out of nowhere).

The reason the first tier is often considered hard is because it's the one you head into after leveling, which means people are undergeared. You barely cap your Hit at the cost of other DPS stats etc. (Depending on how much time you spend farming HC's and such before starting to raid). On top of that you have people learning how to use new abilities and what not.

I always enjoy the 1st tier for that reason, I remember at the start of Cata I was playing DW UH (even though I hate DW in general) because it was destroying anything else by miles even in relatively low gear.


edit: Also, I don't mean to come across as hostile, just enjoying the discussion. I am at work at the time however, so inbetween dodging my manager just take what I say with a grain of salt

[Tinsoul]

Judgement of difficulty is pretty subjective. W/o that we get:

Step 1: Opening tier. Large number of 5 mans in a variety of venues / atmospheres. Multiple raids in different settings with a large boss count.

Step 2: Middle tier. Couple new heroics with a common theme / atmosphere. Single raid with a moderate boss count.

Step 3: Final tier. Couple new heroics with a common theme / atmosphere. Single raid with a moderate boss count.


For me, that first tier is fantastic, with drops in entertainment value in the second and third. In the later tiers, the small pool of relevant dungeons combined with small raid is a sharp contrast to the opening tier. There is added monotonous-ness given the lack of variety.

So personally, I'd love to see things "evened out" a bit. Maybe a few less heroics at launch, and an extra one with each tier. Have a little added variety in those later tier 5 mans. And keep the boss count up in the later tiers. DS is sufficiently short that my guild has spent a comparable amount of time in FL this tier. Legendaries as content ftw.

[pimpeddakota]

From what he said, I was expecting a comparison between Kara (many easy bosses) and Gruul's Lair (Not really hard but fewer bosses)

---------- Post added 2012-06-13 at 03:05 PM ----------

What I've wanted as a progression pattern from blizzard is Normal D ---> LFR ---> Heroic D ---> Normal Raid ---> Heroic Raid.

This would slow down how fast the first tier gets dropped. After first tier ---> LFR (if LFR geared)---> Normal Raid (if NR/HR geared)---> Heroic Raid (first few bosses doable HR geared).

[Azshira]

I think its a bad idea to be honest yet its something we have seen. Since there are a variety of modes, they should all present a challenge for the required audience. Blizzard likes lowering the bar all the time so people who are bad will eventually get to where someone good once did and not learn anything. Each tier desirably should have challenging bosses as well as maybe 1-2 easy bosses and each mode tuned to the required audience. Nerfs should only be needed where it really was problematic, a major turn off to this game for advanced players is they lower the difficulty of HC down to normal mode in many circumstances in time. This makes people to learn nothing. If they are so hell-bent on everyone seeing content well that's LFR right there. Point is, each tier should be challenging no matter if its entry to expansion or the final raid, sure put in 'freeloot boss' here or there, but focus on quality.

[Deleted]

7Normal D ---> LFR ---> Heroic D ---> Normal Raid ---> Heroic Raid.

I don't like this model because it restricts us from playing multiple types of gaming.

I can tell that you probably have TBC experience because seeing things in "first go 5mans, then go there, then go there" type of way, reflects the model of older expansions.

I believe this was related directly to the difficulty of all the types of gaming.

It wasn't easy to do even 5mans back then. I remember we had to carefully CC in 5mans. Heroic 5mans were really challenging.

But, this did happen even in Cata, but in the beginning. By the way, fun fact: They didn't nerf the 5man normals when they nerfed the 5man heroics of Tier 11, so if you go now in a 5man heroic of the old ones it will feel easier than a 5man normal if you go in both with the gear intended for each one of them (not same gear in both).


So yeah, one could say that 5mans of cata did follow the pattern of the rest of the "Tier". i.e. 5mans of the beginning were much harder than the rest that followed. The troll 5mans were not very easy but collectively, I believe they downed more easily than the very first ones. The last 5man were really faceroll, I don't think we can argue that. Yes, you could wipe if you were clueless, but basic strategy in them facerolls them in a hilarious way.

[Deleted]

Sorry, seems to me like you're just trying to shoehorn the Cataclysm trend into fitting with the Wrath trend, when in reality the Raiding tiers were nothing alike.

[Linkedblade]

Unless you can createa trend that eveyone will accept that also include Classic and BC then you are are just wasting your time.

Raiding usually goes something like this.

Initial Easy Dungeons to gear for Harder dungeons (LBRS and Strat for Classic, Regs for BC/WotLK/Cata)
Harder Dungeons to gear for Raids (UBRS/Attunements for Classic, Heroics/Attunements in BC, only Heroics onward)
Lower Difficulty Raids (Cata onward as LFR)
Normal Difficulty Raids (All)
Raid Acheivements (WotLK/Cata onward)
Hardmode/Heroic Raids (Wotlk/Cata onward)

[Deleted]

OK, I think I have to respond to all the negative comments that translate to "You aRE WRONG because it's not exactly that before you go to ICC".

Yes, it's not exactly that before ICC. But, the trend is an evolution. Even if you go to ToC you see a big similarity. Between what Firelands was and what ToC was. Both filler raids between the 'important tiers'. Yes, ToC was not as "beautiful", but come on, Firelands just screams it was designed by a mapper in "2 days"[exaggeration]. It's just an anomalous terrain of the same color and textures.[they just didn't do the mistake of making it a small room] Anyway.

The point of this post here is that yes, the expansions evolve, and it wasn't exactly like that in the past.

But, the trend appears to form that way for now.

Is it going to be exactly the same in the future? Probably not. Evolution continues.

However, do not be surprised if you will see in MoP:

1. A big first tier in MoP that has many easy bosses, many very hard bosses and it stays on for a lot of progression with multiple choices and is not nerfed easily.

2. A smaller second tier that has less very easy bosses. It still has hard bosses and it has an extremely hard boss. It will not stay for long but it will not be either totally nerfed or totally hard.

3./(or last if there are other steps) A smaller/medium raid that is going to be initially hard and then nerfed easily. It might have very hard bosses but they won't stay hard for long. To prepare for the next expansion, to leave people not feeling they left things unkilled.


And if you think this is not going to happen, at least in a relatively similar way, we'll be here and see. Hopefully.