Casualties of Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom

[dwarven]

First off, 9/11 was horrible. It was disgusting what happened to those in the World Trade Center Attacks. The victims and their families did not deserve what happened to them.

But what do we do in all of our superior morality? We go over to the Middle East and cause even more deaths. Why do people turn a blind eye to the fact that we smart bombed neighborhoods with Afghan families in them? Are we better because we used smart bombs instead of suicide bombers or that they were 'accidents'? It doesn't matter. Those people are still dead.

So, in the name of 'freedom', our actions have caused at least 100,000 Iraqi deaths in Operation Iraqi freedom. At least half of those were civilians, these are very conservative numbers. During Operation Enduring Freedom, at least 12,000 Afghan civilians were killed (four times as many civilians as the World Trade center attacks).

It just blows my mind that people defend our actions in the Middle East. I thought we were supposed to be better? Well we're not. If you go by raw numbers in the amount of dead, we're actually worse. Yea.

[Shadylol]

Yeah, less than 4,000 people died from the September/11/2001 attacks

I used to live right by DC, and I remember seeing the Pentagon after they pulled the plane out of it. Seeing that damage up close wasn't a nice thing to see, but New York had it much worse. From talking to people who live or lived in New York City at the time, the aftermath of the whole thing was more disruptive to their everyday life than the attacks themselves

So I definitely acknowledge that September/11 was a rough event for the US, but that alone does not justify what we have done

Afghanistan, and Iraq are sovereign Nations, which we had no right whatsoever to invade. Yet we suspected the Taliban was operating out of Afghanistan, so we invaded them anyway, to search for terrorists. Iraq is even worse, as we invaded them under the pretense of finding weapons of mass destruction, which, to this day, have still never been found. In both cases, despite the horrible acts of war that the US population knew we would commit, we had thousands, if not millions of people eagerly cheering on the war effort against both countries, simply because of the fact that people living there looked like the people who attacked us on 9/11 (Arab/brown/Middle Eastern/Meditteranian)

The US has committed grand war crimes in the past 10 years. We have slaughtered countless innocent civilians, by spraying missles all over the helpless countries that we invaded, then sending our ground troops to go and murder even more of them

As a Nation, we are guilty of mass murder. The time may soon come, when we must pay for our sins

[Palmatum]

It's sad really. But that's just the way the US works it seems. One rule for them and a different rule for everyone else.

I'm just sad Tony Blair's tongue needed to be surgically removed from Bush JR's ass. It's a shame we got dragged into a war we had no place in.

[Kalyyn]

First of all, most of those civilians were killed by insurgents, not American soldiers.

Now, if somebody shoves you, and you shove back, that person will just shove you again. Or worse, throw a punch. Al Qaeda shoved us, so we shot them in the face. Saddam had been kicking us under the table for decades, so we went ahead and shot Iraq in the face too. Since, you know, we were in the neighborhood.

[Shadylol]

It's sad really. But that's just the way the US works it seems. One rule for them and a different rule for everyone else.

I'm just sad Tony Blair's tongue needed to be surgically removed from Bush JR's ass. It's a shame we got dragged into a war we had no place in.

England is no better. The British Empire was a cruel, and unforgiving power structure for the lesser regions that it controlled. Not only is England responsible for taking many lives, but British imperialism, and economic ventures were part of what boosted the African slave trade into such a massive ordeal, long ago. Many other crimes have been committed in the name of the British flag as well

When the time comes, fate will punish both of our people

---------- Post added 2012-06-17 at 04:02 AM ----------

First of all, most of those civilians were killed by insurgents, not American soldiers.

Now, if somebody shoves you, and you shove back, that person will just shove you again. Or worse, throw a punch. Al Qaeda shoved us, so we shot them in the face. Saddam had been kicking us under the table for decades, so we went ahead and shot Iraq in the face too. Since, you know, we were in the neighborhood.

Senseless, bloodthirsty revenge has never solved anything

When push comes to shove, we must defend ourselves, but the countless civilians we have murdered in the Middle East never posed any real threat to us

[Kalyyn]

When the time comes, fate will punish both of our people

American ideology is built on telling fate to go fuck itself.

[dwarven]

Saddam had been kicking us under the table for decades, so we went ahead and shot Iraq in the face too. Since, you know, we were in the neighborhood.

Thanks for reminding me. We put Saddam in power and also gave weapons to Al Qaeda and the Taliban. So really, we're probably responsible for millions of deaths in the Middle East.

---------- Post added 2012-06-17 at 01:06 AM ----------

American ideology is built on telling fate to go fuck itself.

What does that even mean?

[Shadylol]

American ideology is built on telling fate to go fuck itself.

That's inaccurate, the founding ideology of the US was a God fearing Christian nation that would work for the betterment of mankind by allowing freedom (freedom of this degree, at the time was not common)

Anyway, "telling fate to go fuck itself" may be a seemingly noble pursuit for young people, but in time you will learn that there are some things one cannot outrun

[Palmatum]

England is no better. The British Empire was a cruel, and unforgiving power structure for the lesser regions that it controlled. Not only is England responsible for taking many lives, but British imperialism, and economic ventures were part of what boosted the African slave trade into such a massive ordeal, long ago. Many other crimes have been committed in the name of the British flag as well

That was then, this is now. I don't think it's fair to judge a country by its administration, but American administration hasn't change its path much over the last decade.

[dwarven]

First of all, most of those civilians were killed by insurgents, not American soldiers.

Oh are you sure it wasn't the hundreds of thousands of American troops and constant bombardment by aircraft? They just decided to start killing civilians when we show up because they can't blow up our tanks and have to kill something right?

[Shadylol]

What does that even mean?

I think he means that people in the US can disregard the hand of fate, and other harsh realities. It's part of the "you can do anything if you try" mentality that people are taught these days (especially in US public schools)

If someone is told their entire life, that they're capable of anything, and they have nothing to fear, how should they know any better? A true tragedy

[Drihan]

The US has been called out several times for pretending to act like the world's police, nice to see that they shown that they care, but the cost of their actions ends up being horribly destructive. In any war it's senseless to believe that no civilian life will be lost, but those numbers from Operation Iraqi Freedom makes it look like the US didn't care who they targeted as long as they killed people. Just general observations.

[Shadylol]

That was then, this is now. I don't think it's fair to judge a country by its administration, but American administration hasn't change its path much over the last decade.

Neither has changed at heart

If we, as nations, were to truly change, then we would no longer hold onto the old ways of flags, strict territorial borders, or keep the names "England", "the United States of America", etc

---------- Post added 2012-06-17 at 04:13 AM ----------

The US has been called out several times for pretending to act like the world's police, nice to see that they shown that they care, but the cost of their actions ends up being horribly destructive. In any war it's senseless to believe that no civilian life will be lost, but those numbers from Operation Iraqi Freedom makes it look like the US didn't care who they targeted as long as they killed people. Just general observations.

The US does care who it targets, and our military does make a serious effort to avoid civilian casualties. But like you said, there will be innocent lives taken, in any real war

The problem is that we shouldn't be in Afghanistan or Iraq at all, in the first place. What the US has done over the past 10 years is mass murder on a grand scale

[Drihan]

Neither has changed at heart

If we, as nations, were to truly change, then we would no longer hold onto the old ways of flags, strict territorial borders, or keep the names "England", "the United States of America", etc

Then we would get closer to a planetary society instead of continents and countries. A lot of historians, scientists and futurists believe that a planetary society is one of the biggest ways to bring the human species to a much better future.

[dwarven]

The US has been called out several times for pretending to act like the world's police, nice to see that they shown that they care, but the cost of their actions ends up being horribly destructive. In any war it's senseless to believe that no civilian life will be lost, but those numbers from Operation Iraqi Freedom makes it look like the US didn't care who they targeted as long as they killed people. Just general observations.

The reports are all over the place. Some organizations have reported as many as a million Iraqis dead. It just really hard to tell because the war is just now over. I'm sure the actual figure is well above 100,000.

I'd hear about an "accidental" bombing of a school every now and then in the news. But I'm just now realizing how bad it actually was. It really looks like we just didn't give a shit what we hit. I remember watching a youtube video of some cowboys in an Apache who targeted some "insurgents" who had an "rpg" but it turned out to be some Iraqi journalists with a camera or something. I'm sure stuff like that happened every day. I need to find the link.

[Shadylol]

Then we would get closer to a planetary society instead of continents and countries. A lot of historians, scientists and futurists believe that a planetary society is one of the biggest ways to bring the human species to a much better future.

And I agree, as we are all human

In the end, the sun will eventually go supernova, and explode. This will completely vaporize Terra, and anyone left on it. For the human race to truly survive, we eventually have to leave this planet, and space travel is hard enough without wars, and political power struggles. If we look at things on a grand scale, our chances of living as a race are just so much higher if we work together

[Xarkan]

Oh are you sure it wasn't the hundreds of thousands of American troops and constant bombardment by aircraft? They just decided to start killing civilians when we show up because they can't blow up our tanks and have to kill something right?

Yes that is what they did, they decided that given a climate where insurgency had a remote apparent chance of success they decided to try that path. Over simplifying but yes, that is what happened. In fact it was what i read in the newspapers after the first golf war would have happened had the united states then continued to remove Hussein. News are old

Edit: edited gold war to golf war.. gold war? lol

[Kalyyn]

The US has been called out several times for pretending to act like the world's police, nice to see that they shown that they care, but the cost of their actions ends up being horribly destructive. In any war it's senseless to believe that no civilian life will be lost, but those numbers from Operation Iraqi Freedom makes it look like the US didn't care who they targeted as long as they killed people. Just general observations.

If we didn't care, that country would be gone. It would have been cheaper for us to kill all of them than to try to minimize civilian casualties. We spent billions rebuilding that hellhole to civilized standards (which is more than they had when we got there). If we didn't care, we would have just wiped them from existence and left.

But say whatever you want. We didn't do it to impress you.

[Shadylol]

Yes that is what they did, they decided that given a climate where insurgency had a remote apparent chance of success they decided to try that path. Over simplifying but yes, that is what happened. In fact it was what i read in the newspapers after the first golf war would have happened had the united states then continued to remove Hussein. News are old

Edit: edited gold war to golf war.. gold war? lol

It's "Gulf War"

Anyway, no, Iraqi insurgents did not just go on random killing sprees against their own people. Where did you hear that?

[xxf2dxx]

And I agree, as we are all human

In the end, the sun will eventually go supernova, and explode. This will completely vaporize Terra, and anyone left on it. For the human race to truly survive, we eventually have to leave this planet, and space travel is hard enough without wars, and political power struggles. If we look at things on a grand scale, our chances of living as a race are just so much higher if we work together

We'll we've got a couple billion years, so I think we'll be fine on the space program. When it comes to a global society, that's always seemed like a bad idea to me. People are way too easily corrupted and abuse any amount of power they have.