Back to the 1930s: the hammer, sickle and swastika

[Deleted]

But could Greece continue to afford paying those extra 600€ each month? The people need to understand why this is being done, it's not pleasant for the citizens but cuts on spending have to be done.

Yeah, I know what you mean but the Greeks do understand. Being robbed might be necessary from the robber's perspective but it doesn't make it easier for the victim. I don't think any of the participating bailout countries should be happy about it either, but they shouldn't be directing their angst at the Greeks, especially since they're already suffering immensely for their efforts to put right a problem they didn't actually ask for. Give a man a gun and he'll rob a bank, give a man a bank and he'll rob the world :P

[Kivimetsan]

This whole thing about tearing up the contract and restructuring it is bollocks.

Essentially what they are doing is say "You're giving us money and loaning it to us but WE are making the terms" - which is just bollocks, the loaner makes the terms, not the reciever.

All I can say is thank fuck that communist didn't win, because as soon as he tore that up, all hell would break loose.

You need to reduce spending, the way to do that is austerity measures, NOT being an arse and tearing up an agreement that you are in no position to tear up, and then doing nothing about your ridiculously high expenditures.

You don't fix an economy by forcing austerity.

I agree there should be some kind of austerity, i.e. cut public sector jobs and welfare... but you want people to spend money and atm no one in that country is spending, they're actually taking all there money out of the banks, which isn't a good thing either.

This whole thing will stagnate because of the amount of government intervention, if they just let the free market sort this whole thing out when it started, it would have been a rough road but we wouldn't be here today still talking about how to fix it.

[Laize]

First, the Greeks did not give up total currency sovereignty, only some of it, a bad decision either way in my book, but the Euro was supposed to be a joint currency, ie: the Greeks were not without a voice in it.

Second, they did not accept foreign aid to deal with their overspending problems.

And I disagree entirely. There is a serious, big, bolded, double-yellow line between making a loan to a nation with certain conditions, and telling a nation to go suck eggs unless they give up total control over their government. The point of government is to regulate that which exists within it, the point of somebody else's government is not to regulate other people outside of it.

Implicit agreements are implicit for a reason, you have to read into what's going on to find them. IMO: if there is no explicit agreement, then there is NO agreement.

Germany is still a foreign country to Greece. Greece is subject to the terms and conditions of their aid.

Germany's bailouts came with explicit rules that austerity must be followed.

There is a serious Catch-22 with their packages.

On the one hand they need the money Germany is offering. But agreeing to austerity reduces their ability to pay back the debt in the future.

Now there is ONE thing they could do that would get the ball rolling... but it would be absolutely unthinkable to the Greeks and pretty much any modern country.

They could eliminate almost every social program in existence. Eliminate social healthcare, freeze government worker salaries, mass layoffs and generally slash expenses like nobody's business. Follow that by getting serious about tax collection (I'm sure the IRS has more than a few pointers) and creating an extremely business-friendly environment.

That will accomplish 4 things.

1) It'll get the economy rolling in Greece again

2) It'll ensure that the Greek government is collecting their proper amount of taxes and will provide some stability to their revenue

3) It will satisfy all bailout austerity requirements.

4) It'll piss off the Greek people royally... for the first few years.

1 and 2 will feed on each other until this whole Greek crisis is nothing but a bad memory.

4 will take some time to get over, but it would be worth it.

[Sunseeker]

Germany is still a foreign country to Greece. Greece is subject to the terms and conditions of their aid.

Germany's bailouts came with explicit rules that austerity must be followed.

There is a serious Catch-22 with their packages.

On the one hand they need the money Germany is offering. But agreeing to austerity reduces their ability to pay back the debt in the future.

Now there is ONE thing they could do that would get the ball rolling... but it would be absolutely unthinkable to the Greeks and pretty much any modern country.

They could eliminate almost every social program in existence. Eliminate social healthcare, freeze government worker salaries, mass layoffs and generally slash expenses like nobody's business. Follow that by getting serious about tax collection (I'm sure the IRS has more than a few pointers) and creating an extremely business-friendly environment.

That will accomplish 4 things.

1) It'll get the economy rolling in Greece again

2) It'll ensure that the Greek government is collecting their proper amount of taxes and will provide some stability to their revenue

3) It will satisfy all bailout austerity requirements.

4) It'll piss off the Greek people royally... for the first few years.

1 and 2 will feed on each other until this whole Greek crisis is nothing but a bad memory.

4 will take some time to get over, but it would be worth it.

Tax collection after massive pay freezes/cuts and worker layoffs? Yeah, collect what money exactly? Sure, they could take property...oh wait, with whom? They just fired everyone who worked for the government.

Sure, it'd be extremely business friendly, it'd also be completely broke and likely result in riots and further expansion of nationalist support. Oh their economy would get going after that alright, when they started focusing on military development.

Your idea that "business-friendly" environments should essentially be 3rd-world toilets is insane.

[cFortyfive]

I don't get why they don't just leave the Eurozone. Spain, Portugal and Greece - the Euro was never the fitting currency anyways.

Yeah, collect what money exactly?

They could search for it in Switzerland lol.

[Laize]

Tax collection after massive pay freezes/cuts and worker layoffs? Yeah, collect what money exactly? Sure, they could take property...oh wait, with whom? They just fired everyone who worked for the government.

Sure, it'd be extremely business friendly, it'd also be completely broke and likely result in riots and further expansion of nationalist support. Oh their economy would get going after that alright, when they started focusing on military development.

Your idea that "business-friendly" environments should essentially be 3rd-world toilets is insane.

Ok let's make one thing clear. I said the solution would be pretty brutal.

However I'm not wrong. About 1 in 5 Greeks works for the public sector. That is fucking retarded (And I'm not unaware that 15% of the US workforce is in the public sector. That's retarded too.).

If you make your country business friendly, businesses will *gasp* go there. Foreign capital investments get your economy rolling. With more cash flowing through your economy combined with a robust tax collection system you will find that government revenues will increase. It's even entirely possible that such changes could yield higher tax revenues with LOWER tax rates.

[Deleted]

I don't get why they don't just leave the Eurozone. Spain, Portugal and Greece - the Euro was never the fitting currency anyways.

They could search for it in Switzerland lol.

First they would default on their debt, wich would hurt the banking system. Then there would be a devaluation of their new currencies, and their tourism sector would benefit from this but can you realy get growth out of tourism? They need to export, but they don't have many significant exporting industries. Also many of the companies there have their loans in euros, if they leave the eurozone they will go bankrupt, as the loan is still in euros.

There would be inflation of the new currencies, devaluation and a collapse of the banks. It would be a disaster for all of Europe, as the banks are all very exposed to the defaults of those countries. There is no winner if they leave.

[Tore]

In nature, when an organism is weak and dies its because it was unfit to survive. A better, stronger, and more efficient organism rises to take its place. It's called survival of the fittest. It may not have been intended for use with geopolitics, but fuck it. It sounds like a good system.

Let Greece fail and burn and from its ashes will rise a better, smarter, more efficient nation. Let Spain fail. Let Portugal fail. Let giant US banks fail. Let corporations that need bailouts fail. Let anything that's limping fail because patching it up and hobbling forward will never get you a better result than letting the broken system die and having it rise again.

[Deleted]

In nature, when an organism is weak and dies its because it was unfit to survive. A better, stronger, and more efficient organism rises to take its place. It's called survival of the fittest. It may not have been intended for use with geopolitics, but fuck it. It sounds like a good system.

Let Greece fail and burn and from its ashes will rise a better, smarter, more efficient nation. Let Spain fail. Let Portugal fail. Let giant US banks fail. Let corporations that need bailouts fail. Let anything that's limping fail because patching it up and hobbling forward will never get you a better result than letting the broken system die and having it rise again.

If we were to go by that logic all of the world would fail, as we are all very dependant and exposed to each other. We can have change without destruction, there is no need to create massive chaos.

[Deleted]

Greece lied about the state of its economy to get into the EU and then lived beyond its means from there on in - did you think the party was going to last forever? Cuts are always painful, the UK is currently also implementing vast, painful cuts across the public sector but it needs to be done. We're slowly, begrudgingly coming to terms with the notion that you can't spend what you don't have. When will Greece?

1st Greece didnt lie the goverment did dont put 10 million ppl in the same shit cause of 300
2nd Poor kid Europe you got fooled by Greek goverment you really dont believe that right? Greek goverment indeed gave fake evidence about the economy of the country and the innocent Europe bite it.....
3rd Cuts are always painful indeed special when are from ppl that they have nothing to do with the mistake/problem y ppl dont pay the taxys in Greece you should consider your self though wich ppl ill tell you the rich ppl wich they are like 10% maximum of the population
4th when i was asked and i dont rimember as citizen of Greece if i want to change curency and go to Euro? never

---------- Post added 2012-06-20 at 03:41 AM ----------

I don't get why they don't just leave the Eurozone. Spain, Portugal and Greece - the Euro was never the fitting currency anyways.

They could search for it in Switzerland lol.

are you really so naive that you believe if those countrys leave Eurozone you will have Eurozone the next morning ?

[Lellybaby]

Don't suppose the Greece government had any assets they can sell off?

[Laize]

Don't suppose the Greece government had any assets they can sell off?

Considering part of the bailout austerity agreements was that their number of publicly owned companies would drop from 6000 to 2000... I'd say they had some assets.

[Kivimetsan]

In nature, when an organism is weak and dies its because it was unfit to survive. A better, stronger, and more efficient organism rises to take its place. It's called survival of the fittest. It may not have been intended for use with geopolitics, but fuck it. It sounds like a good system.

Let Greece fail and burn and from its ashes will rise a better, smarter, more efficient nation. Let Spain fail. Let Portugal fail. Let giant US banks fail. Let corporations that need bailouts fail. Let anything that's limping fail because patching it up and hobbling forward will never get you a better result than letting the broken system die and having it rise again.

Yeah totally agree, all the money that the Euro zone has poured into Greece isn't solving the problem.

[cFortyfive]

There is no winner if they leave.

There is no winner anyways - at least not from the view of the nations involved.

are you really so naive that you believe if those countrys leave Eursozone you will have Eurozone the next morning ?

Lieber ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende. Maybe we don't - it still was discussed and to me it still seems better than paying indefinitely.

[Reeve]

1st Greece didnt lie the goverment did dont put 10 million ppl in the same shit cause of 300

Oh those crazy 300 Greeks, always causing troubles for other nations...

[Deleted]

There is no winner anyways - at least not from the view of the nations involved.

Lieber ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende. Maybe we don't - it still was discussed and to me it still seems better than paying indefinitely.

i didnt say i want to stay on Euro is said Euro dont want me to leave

[cFortyfive]

i didnt say i want to stay on Euro is said Euro dont want me to leave

Sadly enough yes.

[Deleted]

i didnt say i want to stay on Euro is said Euro dont want me to leave

Opinion polls in Greece show that more than 70% of the population wants to remain in the euro.

[Laize]

Oh those crazy 300 Greeks, always causing troubles for other nations...

Suddenly I just had a hilarious fucking image pop into my head.

300 of these guys:



fighting off the entire Iranian (Iran is formerly Persia) army and kicking their fucking asses.

Just put that picture in your brain and look at it for a few seconds. Tell me you don't laugh.

[Deleted]

http://libcom.org/library/greece-try...iza-paul-mason posted on an anarchist website but it's written by Paul Mason who's a political correspondent for the BBC iirc.