Programming and Math

[Runeforged]

Hey guys,

A while back I made a post about my inability to choose which career I wanted to pursue after college. Before, I wanted to have a science related field, but I had an epiphany that I don't really have to have a science related career (Yeah, I'm not sure why it took me so long to realize that, I've always been so fascinated by science, I guess, and never considered working in anything else).
So I was wondering about computer science. I've always been good with computers, I pretty much grew up with them, and I think this would be an ideal career path. So please allow me a couple questions, MMO-C seems like a good place to ask for this type of question.

I've heard that programming is similar to math, would it be so similar that someone who has trouble with math will also have trouble with programming?
And how hard would it be to go into college, and going into the computer classes without even knowing HTML?

[bals]

being good at math will definitely help you. I won't say you can't pick up programming without being good at math.
A lot of the concepts in computer science will require you to be fairly proficient at math though.

college is designed to teach you everything from the ground up. having a stronger foundation is always helpful and will make things easier.
the college curriculum will also teach you the math that is required to complete your courses (well, mostly, there were points where my teachers would bring up stuff that was beyond what we needed to learn)
and to get into semantics html isn't programming.

[Runeforged]

being good at math will definitely help you. I won't say you can't pick up programming without being good at math.
A lot of the concepts in computer science will require you to be fairly proficient at math though.

college is designed to teach you everything from the ground up. having a stronger foundation is always helpful and will make things easier.
and to get into semantics html isn't programming.

I'm fairly decent at math (as in, being able to add, divide, multiply, or subtract with relative ease), but I'm kind of horrible at Algebra (as in, trying to remember all the stupid little "shortcuts" that my teachers based their teachings off of for the past 5 years). I meant the HTML comment as a sort of "gauge" to let people know that I don't really have that much experience outside of just fixing stuff on my computer, or whatever else. Because, I would assume, that HTML would be a pretty basic concept in computer science in general.

[Badpaladin]

I think computer science and programming is more similar to physics than math, because you focus so much on breaking down problems into smaller problems to solve. You won't use it a whole lot unless you're going into game development, in which case you'll be using the hell out of geometry/trig/calculus. However even then it's different...you're not using the math to get a specific answer so much as using tools from math to come up with the most efficient solution to the particular sub-problem (say you wanted to have interactice circles in a game, computing sqrt( x^2 + y^2 ) a lot is attrociously bad, so you'll look for other ways to mathematically represent a circle-like object).

That being said, it's still important. Taking algebra, gemoetry, trig, single-variable calculus, multivariable and vector calculus increases your problem solving skills. Programming is all about problem solving, and the best way to be good at that is to solve a ton of problems. Just don't get caught up in being good with using the computer as a tool. You're going to be learning a discipline completely unlike what you've done before, and just because it's on a computer doesn't mean it's not an engineering process. Don't be one of those people who thinks he's got a handle on the material by default because he's good with computers. If you think you're better than the subject material you may as well drop out, because even if CS 101 isn't that difficult your professors in the future will happily cause you to lose sleep with some assignments.
And HTML is irrelevant for computer science. It's nice to know if you want to get into web development, but it's certainly not mandatory.

[bals]

That being said, it's still important. Taking algebra, gemoetry, trig, single-variable calculus, multivariable and vector calculus increases your problem solving skills.

Pfft, you forgot one of the most important ones! mathematical logic!

[Dragore]

I would suggest taking general classes first, find out what you actually want to do. Dont give yourself choices be open to all and find the one that you have a passion for. Take into classes to both if need be, or anything else. But if those two are the things you are passionate about id say go programming. Its like math in the sense of you have to be in the minset of figuring out a problem but you create it...im a front end developer and i love it, don't know what kind of programming your thinking of (C++, python, ruby, XML, Java, Javascript, etc.)

[Runeforged]

I think computer science and programming is more similar to physics than math, because you focus so much on breaking down problems into smaller problems to solve. You won't use it a whole lot unless you're going into game development, in which case you'll be using the hell out of geometry/trig/calculus. However even then it's different...you're not using the math to get a specific answer so much as using tools from math to come up with the most efficient solution to the particular sub-problem (say you wanted to have interactice circles in a game, computing sqrt( x^2 + y^2 ) a lot is attrociously bad, so you'll look for other ways to mathematically represent a circle-like object).

That being said, it's still important. Taking algebra, gemoetry, trig, single-variable calculus, multivariable and vector calculus increases your problem solving skills. Programming is all about problem solving, and the best way to be good at that is to solve a ton of problems. Just don't get caught up in being good with using the computer as a tool. You're going to be learning a discipline completely unlike what you've done before, and just because it's on a computer doesn't mean it's not an engineering process. Don't be one of those people who thinks he's got a handle on the material by default because he's good with computers. If you think you're better than the subject material you may as well drop out, because even if CS 101 isn't that difficult your professors in the future will happily cause you to lose sleep with some assignments.
And HTML is irrelevant for computer science. It's nice to know if you want to get into web development, but it's certainly not mandatory.

Good to know, I'm pretty good at physics and problem solving in general. In fact, that's how I solve most math problems, even if I don't remember the formula or something, I can usually generate my own just by visualizing the problem, usually works too. I don't think I'll have have a grip on this by default, that's why I'm asking here to see if it's viable for someone like myself.

I would suggest taking general classes first, find out what you actually want to do. Dont give yourself choices be open to all and find the one that you have a passion for. Take into classes to both if need be, or anything else. But if those two are the things you are passionate about id say go programming. Its like math in the sense of you have to be in the minset of figuring out a problem but you create it...im a front end developer and i love it, don't know what kind of programming your thinking of (C++, python, ruby, XML, Java, Javascript, etc.)

Most likely C++ or python.

[Badpaladin]

Good to know, I'm pretty good at physics and problem solving in general. In fact, that's how I solve most math problems, even if I don't remember the formula or something, I can usually generate my own just by visualizing the problem, usually works too. I don't think I'll have have a grip on this by default, that's why I'm asking here to see if it's viable for someone like myself.

That's good. A lot of the math is really about looking at a formula and figuring out what you can do to make it better. For example, you may need to compute a mathematical formula that requires successive summing with a loop. A good approach is to look at the original formula and see if you can find something that can be pre-computed without changing the formula. Instead of computing that every time you loop, you've now computed it only once and stored its value to be used in the loop. You're not really solving the math problem so much as looking at how to use the computer to solve it more efficiently.

[Dragore]

Well programming is a good field to get into. Its demanding, innovating, a lot of work and can remotely work from anywhere. I live near the Bay Area in the US and theres so much. In Europe; Germany and the UK seem to have a lot of programming jobs too. Don't know where your located but should think about that too, if you want to start your carrer local to where your or wouldn't have a problem moving to the jobs.

[Runeforged]

Well programming is a good field to get into. Its demanding, innovating, a lot of work and can remotely work from anywhere. I live near the Bay Area in the US and theres so much. In Europe; Germany and the UK seem to have a lot of programming jobs too. Don't know where your located but should think about that too, if you want to start your carrer local to where your or wouldn't have a problem moving to the jobs.

I live in a mostly rural town in Tennessee, however Nashville is just a 2 hour drive away, I'm sure there's some jobs there, or in Memphis or something.

[Albert the fish]

from what i understand you don't use a lot of math outside of basics for the vast bulk of programming.
that being said both are very linear concepts so if you intuitively think well in math than maybe you'll think well in programming.

it's so much that one requires the other as much as they both require similar thought patterns.

afaik

[semaphore]

I've heard that programming is similar to math, would it be so similar that someone who has trouble with math will also have trouble with programming?

I don't find it similar at all, although you can sure use a working knowledge of mathematics. And I suppose people good at mathematics probably have a better innate ability to handle computing languages. You don't however need it at any really advanced level though, unless you go into the development of algorithms.

[Mayhem]

i learned assembler, back in the days, damn it (i´m not that old!), but c++ and java is much more fun, because something actually happens *g*

as soon as you learn the basics of programming, you can chose the direction you want to go, the syntax is mostly the same, main difference ofcourse is between object orientated (sp?) or not

simple put like the difference between javascript and html

[Marooned]

Programming nowadays is more about knowledge rather than being intelligent or clever. You need to read and learn as much libraries and frameworks for each language as possible and to know where and when to use them.

[nixcookies]

Computer Science is amazing to get into and it's great you want to join the field.

I honestly want to reassure you that you do not need mathematics to be a good programmer, but don't get me wrong it's really good if you have a good understanding of mathematics as it makes it easier to understand programming also you can integrate some mathematical concepts into your algorithms if you want.

It's also great that you have such a passion for science in general because from my experience later down your career path you can use your programming knowledge and become part of a field you enjoy but don't necessarily have experience in such as: music, biology, chemistry, graphics, physics and much more. One example is my colleague loves programming but he got pretty bored of building financial systems and websites so he decided to join a scientific study to program certain bacteria and cells to do what you want and he loves it.

Computer Science is much more than programming (although that's my favourite aspect), there is computer architecture/hardware, file management, databases, graphics, sound, so there is quite a variety.

Please trust me when I say you will not be overwhelmed, when I done my undergraduates degree many years ago I was in your situation having no experience in programming at all and not particularly strong in mathematics. Some of the content may be a little challenging but that's part of the fun and you're a smart guy you'll get through it!

Good luck and I very much hope you decide to study Computer Science

[Runeforged]

Computer Science is amazing to get into and it's great you want to join the field.

I honestly want to reassure you that you do not need mathematics to be a good programmer, but don't get me wrong it's really good if you have a good understanding of mathematics as it makes it easier to understand programming also you can integrate some mathematical concepts into your algorithms if you want.

It's also great that you have such a passion for science in general because from my experience later down your career path you can use your programming knowledge and become part of a field you enjoy but don't necessarily have experience in such as: music, biology, chemistry, graphics, physics and much more. One example is my colleague loves programming but he got pretty bored of building financial systems and websites so he decided to join a scientific study to program certain bacteria and cells to do what you want and he loves it.

Computer Science is much more than programming (although that's my favourite aspect), there is computer architecture/hardware, file management, databases, graphics, sound, so there is quite a variety.

Please trust me when I say you will not be overwhelmed, when I done my undergraduates degree many years ago I was in your situation having no experience in programming at all and not particularly strong in mathematics. Some of the content may be a little challenging but that's part of the fun and you're a smart guy you'll get through it!

Good luck and I very much hope you decide to study Computer Science

Thanks, that's very reassuring! I do love how flexible computer science can be. It seems likely at this point that I'll study computer science, so it's good to know I won't be completely overwhelmed by it.

[Authary]

You do not NEED maths to program but being able to understand what you're actually programming helps a lot. You can spend all your career programming "simple" stuff (as in something built from a collection of very simple algorithms) but, if you do not understand, you'll just be the one typing code for something someone else created. If you can automatize it, you do not want it to be your job.

For example, in my lab, we face a shortage of engineers able to program more complex algorithms in an efficient way. We can't just take any programmer, tell him "hey, please implement that" and give him the formulas...

[Aldred]

I have a degree in Computing Science (roughly 50% of it was programming) and I'd say maths really isn't that important. I'd studied maths all the way through high school, and for a year at university too, but barely needed anything I learned in the later years for my computing degree. I was pretty average at maths too - I mean I passed my classes and everything but it wasn't something I was great at. Maybe the kind of mindset you need is similar though - problem solving and understanding the rules of how things will behave.

This was in the UK, I don't know if it's much different in the US, but you didn't need much previous programming experience to start studying here - although it certainly helped.

If you find you can understand fairly simple programming concepts in any language and are reasonably intelligent you should be fine. Did you do any computing at school? That usually gives you an indication as to whether you'd be suited to it. Alternatively pick up a real beginner's book on programming and see if it starts making sense. If yes, then study Computing, Else study something else.