Shadowy Apparitions for Holy/Disc? Is that a misprint?

[Greyce]

I hope that is a terrible terrible error that will be corrected soon.

[Kaesebrezen]

Why is that a terrible error?

[Imnick]

It's just the tooltip so that Disc/Holy can see what it does, just like there are Aff/Destro tooltips for Metamorphosis despite the fact that they don't get the spell.

[Greyce]

It is a terrible error because Holy and Disc Priests have always been able to cast nearly everything that Shadow Priests can, without having drop out of a "form." Shadow finally had something exclusive (Apparitions) and now it's being shared -- while Shadow Priests *still* have to drop out of Shadowform to cast any non-shadow spell.

[Deleted]

It is a terrible error because Holy and Disc Priests have always been able to cast nearly everything that Shadow Priests can, without having drop out of a "form." Shadow finally had something exclusive (Apparitions) and now it's being shared -- while Shadow Priests *still* have to drop out of Shadowform to cast any non-shadow spell.

Really? I mean REALLY? Out of all the things shadow has you're upset that other 2 specs get the most visual but also the most infuriatingly useless thing? I don't follow.

[Zarqa]

There are two different coefficients now, based on spec. So I would say: yes, holy/disc will get SA as well.

[TyloBedo]

It is a terrible error because Holy and Disc Priests have always been able to cast nearly everything that Shadow Priests can, without having drop out of a "form." Shadow finally had something exclusive (Apparitions) and now it's being shared -- while Shadow Priests *still* have to drop out of Shadowform to cast any non-shadow spell.

You only need to drop shadowform to cast holy spells.

I can't even believe somebody is complaining about this.

[Onigumo]

Really? I mean REALLY? Out of all the things shadow has you're upset that other 2 specs get the most visual but also the most infuriatingly useless thing? I don't follow.

I don't think it's the spell so much as it is the fact of the matter. Shadow loses out on of the few things that make it unique. That is what I got from teh op's post anyway.

[Kirse]

I don't think it's the spell so much as it is the fact of the matter. Shadow loses out on of the few things that make it unique. That is what I got from teh op's post anyway.

I'd prefer the ability if there was a light version of the apparitions. Glowing versions of myself walking towards the enemy, yes please! (maybe the only visible thing could be a glowing outline of a body). It would also step on Shadow's toes less. But honestly as disc I welcome the change, disc spell effects are pretty uninteresting to me. The ability to continue healing through the apparition damage is extremely useful for healers. For many dps the rng factor and delay in effect seems to be more annoying than positive.

[Purple]

You only need to drop shadowform to cast holy spells.

I can't even believe somebody is complaining about this.

Do you even play a Shadow Priest? Even the most minor cost is still a cost, from the older high cost and GDC issues all the way to more modern issues, yes, I must insist that you get it through your head, that is an actual problem. Popping in and out of Shadowform, to use a Holy ability now and then, even for minor cost is a big deal, because you lose a lot when you're out of Shadowform and you pay a price to get back in. It lowers your overall effectiveness if you're caught in a situation where you have to drop Shadowform altogether or if you're in a situation where you have to pop in and out of Shadowform several times. A Shadow Priest that comes out and heals in an emergency to save a raid may be a good Shadow Priest, but there is very real mechanical and statistical sacrifice involved in doing so - no I'm not counting the dim witted personal DPS counter nonsense.

[Imnick]

It's still just a tooltip change though so all this arguing is pointless, they don't actually have the spell

[Greyce]

You only need to drop shadowform to cast holy spells.

I can't even believe somebody is complaining about this.

And how many forms do holy or disc priests have to drop to cast shadow spells? NONE. Nor do they then have to use a GCD and mana to cast a "holyform" or "discform" to resume an essential stance that makes them actually effective.

Purple also stated it well above.

[huth]

Which is still irrelevant because nothing was actually changed as far as game mechanics go. Holy and Disc see a different tooltip now, that's it.

[Noradin]

You only need to drop shadowform to cast holy spells.

What is a holy spell (in contrast to a disc spell) in MoP anyway? They should make us only drop shadowform when casting a healing holy spell. Otherwise there is no ingame indication anymore why Massdispell (holy school, but disc book currently) doesn't kick us out of it but Greater Heal (holy school, holy book) does. The random distribution into those two catergories (holy and disc) lately did annoy me anyways. Leap of Faith for example, it feels like a disc spell (the school, not the spec), why was it put as holy?

[scandore8472]

And how many forms do holy or disc priests have to drop to cast shadow spells? NONE. Nor do they then have to use a GCD and mana to cast a "holyform" or "discform" to resume an essential stance that makes them actually effective.

Purple also stated it well above.

You're wrong because shadow can cast PoM and Renew while in shadow form.

You're wrong again because Holy does have a DPS form, Chakra: Chastise; it's like shadow form in that it greatly buffs holy DPS (15% damage increase, and 75% mana reduction for HF/smite), but switching to it penalizes healing far more than dropping shadow form penalizes DPS. You loose 1 GCD to switch back to shadow, holy looses 30 freaking seconds, so back to me on how bad it sucks. Yes, you can still cast DPS spells when you're not in Chastise, but you'll run yourself out of mana, and mana is far too valuable to sacrifice.

Also, you're also forgetting that shadow form reduces damage by 20%. Which means allowing priests to spam heals in shadow form creates all kinds of balance problems.

And finally, how dare you dare bitch about the fact that holy/disc might get a shadow ability that's completely useless to a healer; PI, disc's strongest CD, was given to holy and shadow. I can see how you'd be peeved if it was dispersion or shadow form (I wasn't too thrilled about the PI change) but seriously, getting upset over apparitions? It's probably just a tooltip error anyways.

[Purple]

You're wrong because shadow can cast PoM and Renew while in shadow form.

Welcome to a world that has changed from the majority of the time many of us have played Shadow Priests.

Also, you're also forgetting that shadow form reduces damage by 20%. Which means allowing priests to spam heals in shadow form creates all kinds of balance problems.

It does, and it doesn't.

And finally, how dare you dare bitch

Hah. Ah, I'm going to be chuckling about this for awhile.

about the fact that holy/disc might get a shadow ability that's completely useless to a healer;

Not to mention fairly useless even for a Shadow Priest.

PI, disc's strongest CD, was given to holy and shadow. I can see how you'd be peeved if it was dispersion or shadow form (I wasn't too thrilled about the PI change) but seriously, getting upset over apparitions? It's probably just a tooltip error anyways.

You really don't have a clue why most Shadow Priests originally even took up Shadow, let alone one of the central aspects as its evolved. It's the visuals, it's why I don't support any Holy spell in Shadowform myself unless it outright has a Shadow specific version. It's why, when I see people that glyphed their Shadowform to.. not be very shadowy at all.. I cringe.

I'm a Shadow Priest. I'll come out in an emergency, help out, and use non-Shadow spells because I'd be an idiot not to, but, emphasis on the "Shadow" here. They're already consolidating effects by locking off Shadow from some of the non-shadow damage spells, if you've noticed. My reaction? Good. Now lock them out of the Shadow spells. That includes apparitions, no matter how much I think Blizzard need to rethink the bloody thing and its mechanics.

In the end, you're little point about 'reducing damage by 20%' is moot. Why? Because you fail to understand a basic thing that even Blizzard had to slap themselves for when making BC. You may not recall that they started stripping down Talent trees of talents that were 'too much' from other all the classes and their specs, and tried to lay the effects and bonuses out as evenly as possible. It destroyed Shadow in the beta for BC when they did this, and not the usual people whining, "Oh Shadow is terrible now" stuff you here, I mean actual and factual non-functionality.

Why did that happen? Because Shadow is in a position that no other specialization in the game is in. It's the only specialization put in the middle of a class that is built to be a healer at a base, and has two healing specs to support it. Shadow didn't function when they did that because, even though they made the Shadow tree, they didn't realize why it was what it was. It needs those things, at a base, to even qualify to be the weakest portion of what it is. Let alone the parts that get on equal footing with other classes. The Shadow tree wasn't just a specialization, but the building blocks needed to make it function entirely differently than the base of the class ever allowed back then.

Do not, ever, act like you have some high point to tell me, or anyone, "How dare you" when as a Shadow Priest I pulled, for years, for Discipline to be its own and steady and functional tree, and do not act like you have a clue about Shadow when I've stuck with this class through thick and thin, the worst and the best. Why? Because the function is one thing, but the visuals, the thematic, they're everything and more. I'll go into mechanics, discuss changes, push for changes even.. but the one thing I'll fight for is to maintain those visuals and to make sure that Holy and Discipline Priests are cut off from such things. Apparitions is not an ability I like, but it's a visually "Shadow" ability from the core and up, built upon the very thing that makes Shadow work so well as a theme. The second you start handing that out to any, even one, specialization, is the second something has gone terribly wrong.

[ManyHamsters]

Glowy yellow "angel" apparitions would be fun.

[Deleted]

Are you really arguing about this? I think it's an error and nothing more.

Btw, stop whining 'cause real Priests have 2 healing specs

[Deleted]

It's the visuals,
when I see people that glyphed their Shadowform to.. not be very shadowy at all.. I cringe.

"How dare you" when as a Shadow Priest I pulled, for years, for Discipline to be its own and steady and functional tree, and do not act like you have a clue about Shadow when I've stuck with this class through thick and thin, the worst and the best.

but the visuals, the thematic, they're everything and more.

maintain those visuals

but it's a visually "Shadow" ability

We get it, you think shadow is pretty.

The character effect is still unique and awesome.

Also, stuck with it through thick and thin ? Pulled for years? This isn't some great life journey its a game, stop being so melodramatic.

[scandore8472]

You really don't have a clue why most Shadow Priests originally even took up Shadow, let alone one of the central aspects as its evolved. It's the visuals, it's why I don't support any Holy spell in Shadowform myself unless it outright has a Shadow specific version. It's why, when I see people that glyphed their Shadowform to.. not be very shadowy at all.. I cringe.

I'm a Shadow Priest. I'll come out in an emergency, help out, and use non-Shadow spells because I'd be an idiot not to, but, emphasis on the "Shadow" here. They're already consolidating effects by locking off Shadow from some of the non-shadow damage spells, if you've noticed. My reaction? Good. Now lock them out of the Shadow spells. That includes apparitions, no matter how much I think Blizzard need to rethink the bloody thing and its mechanics.

I get it, it's a shadowy spell, so only shadow should be able to use it.

In the end, you're little point about 'reducing damage by 20%' is moot. Why? Because you fail to understand a basic thing that even Blizzard had to slap themselves for when making BC.


Why did that happen? Because Shadow is in a position that no other specialization in the game is in. It's the only specialization put in the middle of a class that is built to be a healer at a base, and has two healing specs to support it. Shadow didn't function when they did that because, even though they made the Shadow tree, they didn't realize why it was what it was. It needs those things, at a base, to even qualify to be the weakest portion of what it is. Let alone the parts that get on equal footing with other classes. The Shadow tree wasn't just a specialization, but the building blocks needed to make it function entirely differently than the base of the class ever allowed back then.

I have two words for you, hybrid tax.

Back in the day, shadow priests brought a lot utility. And because they brought so much utility, even though they were a DPS spec, because of the hybrid tax, they could never compete with pure DPS classes.

So shadow priests (among others) fought hard for blizzard to remove the hybrid tax. The result wasn't the removal of the hybrid tax like most people think, but a change to what got taxed. Before, DPS was taxed in favor of utility. Now, utility is taxed in favor of DPS.

The result is shadow can now compete with pure dps classes, but it's no longer a strong healer like it used to be.

Arguing that it should be less penalizing for shadow to cast heals, is really an argument for bringing back the hybrid tax. For it to be easier for shadow to heal, they would have to give up DPS. A 20% flat damage reduction is no joke, allowing shadow to retain that kind of damage reduction while casting heals is a step back to hybrid tax.

Do not, ever, act like you have some high point to tell me, or anyone, "How dare you" when as a Shadow Priest I pulled, for years, for Discipline to be its own and steady and functional tree, and do not act like you have a clue about Shadow when I've stuck with this class through thick and thin, the worst and the best. Why? Because the function is one thing, but the visuals, the thematic, they're everything and more. I'll go into mechanics, discuss changes, push for changes even.. but the one thing I'll fight for is to maintain those visuals and to make sure that Holy and Discipline Priests are cut off from such things. Apparitions is not an ability I like, but it's a visually "Shadow" ability from the core and up, built upon the very thing that makes Shadow work so well as a theme. The second you start handing that out to any, even one, specialization, is the second something has gone terribly wrong.

Then don't act like a spoiled brat about an insignificant change/bug. Disc gave up a powerful, spec defining ability in the name of class homogenization. If it's not a bug, and disc/holy get apparitions, so what? It's a change that has zero impact on game-play. PI on the other hand, isn't just a visual difference, it removes one of the very few things that set disc and holy apart.