GC and rogues..

[Lemp]

"For the record, as many players will tell you, Sub is nearly impossible to balance with both Preparation and Shadowstep. On the other hand, having two talents that are both so good that you want them both and have to think long and hard about which one to take and perhaps even swap back and forth from time to time is pretty much exactly what we are trying to deliver with the new talent system. Are rogues doomed in PvP without both? I doubt that. Is it hard to choose? Of course, and that's the point. If we conclude that it's just too cruel to ask rogues to choose between them, we'd likely just cut Prep from the game and perhaps lower a few cooldowns slightly. I really hope though that we aren't in a space where every cool talent has to become mandatory or deleted." - GC


Can someone please tell me another class, besides rogues of course, that are having to choose between 2 of their most important abilities in MoP?

How about mages choose between Blink and Cold Snap.

Also didnt vanish get nerfed to a 3 minute CD? I havent played the beta but thats what the talent calculator shows.

[Deleted]

cant say I am looking forward to the choice,or the extremely lame 90 talents and new "exciting" cough glyph's we are getting, but at the end of the day its players choice
either you love your class and carry or regardless trying to make lemonade of lemons or you re-roll..rogues are in a insanely good place atm in pvp and wont deny I wont miss the fun but hey I didn't fotm roll rogue for the daggers or vial, had it since bc and I will continue to play it whatever

cant really compare it to mage's, I understand they are getting a few minor cc tweaks but don't think mage's will ever feel the true wrath of greg's nerfbat like warriors pally's and now rogues have

luckily I have 85's of each class if I want the fotm option but greg deciding to gut sub wont make me ragequit or abandon one of my favourite chars

[Lemp]

cant say I am looking forward to the choice,or the extremely lame 90 talents and new "exciting" cough glyph's we are getting, but at the end of the day its players choice
either you love your class and carry or regardless trying to make lemonade of lemons or you re-roll..rogues are in a insanely good place atm in pvp and wont deny I wont miss the fun but hey I didn't fotm roll rogue for the daggers or vial, had it since bc and I will continue to play it whatever

cant really compare it to mage's, I understand they are getting a few minor cc tweaks but don't think mage's will ever feel the true wrath of greg's nerfbat like warriors pally's and now rogues have

luckily I have 85's of each class if I want the fotm option but greg deciding to gut sub wont make me ragequit or abandon one of my favourite chars

I already know im not going to reroll, I love my rogue. But its undeniable that rogues feel amazing in pvp right now, even apart from all the pve gear. I feel like we have an answer for everything and I just hate seeing that get taken away, even if it is a little OP.

[Coldkil]

Problem: rogues are too dependant from CDs and actually balanced around having all of them plus a cd reset
Answer: make you choose between these "mandatory" CDs/abilities (which is good, we needed a nerf) but not giving anything to make us more survivable toe to toe (no, leeching poison doesn't give ebough surv alone)

Problem: rogues scale very bad at expansion start, but very good at the end of it - hence pve gear for more damage while keeping all the tools.
Answer: ...we dealt with Preparation already.

I'm not rerolling ofc, but this is what i think is a bad solution. It's the same as talents, made to destroy cookie cutter builds but in fact we have only cookie cutter builds.

[asharia]

You'll be fine. If you're expecting to be anything like this season, then of course you're probably in for a bit of a shock.

[Charge me Doctor]

"For the record, as many players will tell you, Sub is nearly impossible to balance with both Preparation and Shadowstep. On the other hand, having two talents that are both so good that you want them both and have to think long and hard about which one to take and perhaps even swap back and forth from time to time is pretty much exactly what we are trying to deliver with the new talent system. Are rogues doomed in PvP without both? I doubt that. Is it hard to choose? Of course, and that's the point. If we conclude that it's just too cruel to ask rogues to choose between them, we'd likely just cut Prep from the game and perhaps lower a few cooldowns slightly. I really hope though that we aren't in a space where every cool talent has to become mandatory or deleted." - GC


Can someone please tell me another class, besides rogues of course, that are having to choose between 2 of their most important abilities in MoP?

How about mages choose between Blink and Cold Snap.

Also didnt vanish get nerfed to a 3 minute CD? I havent played the beta but thats what the talent calculator shows.

What about rogues choose between Backstab and Hemmorhage?
most important abilities in MoP made me laugh. Preparation is not needed in PvP at all. Yes, it is good, but not needed. If you can't play without these two abilities, you should review you gamestyle.

And about mages, cold snap is bullshit IMO, improved inivs is much better for solo pvp, and cauterize for mass pvp.

[Lemp]

What about rogues choose between Backstab and Hemmorhage?
most important abilities in MoP made me laugh. Preparation is not needed in PvP at all. Yes, it is good, but not needed. If you can't play without these two abilities, you should review you gamestyle.

And about mages, cold snap is bullshit IMO, improved inivs is much better for solo pvp, and cauterize for mass pvp.

Some rogues already do choose between hemo and backstab. And no, preparation is very important and very helpful. And sorry if Im not the best rogue in the world, 99% of rogues do need preparation. Im sure a pro like you doesnt tho.

[Hoticehunter]

Problem: rogues are too dependant from CDs and actually balanced around having all of them plus a cd reset
Answer: make you choose between these "mandatory" CDs/abilities (which is good, we needed a nerf) but not giving anything to make us more survivable toe to toe (no, leeching poison doesn't give ebough surv alone)

It's not a nerf if you get something just as good in return you know...

[MasterHamster]

Wouldn't this all be less frightening if you knew that at 90 PvP rogues will be balanced to have either and obviously not both?
Like.. you think you'll suddenly be much worse than now?

People need to learn perspective on things.

[Imkilo]

What about rogues choose between Backstab and Hemmorhage?
most important abilities in MoP made me laugh. Preparation is not needed in PvP at all. Yes, it is good, but not needed. If you can't play without these two abilities, you should review you gamestyle.

And about mages, cold snap is bullshit IMO, improved inivs is much better for solo pvp, and cauterize for mass pvp.

Exactly. these changes are only going to make you more skilled as a rogue and make you choose you're gcd's more wisely...

[redderz1]

id love to know exactly what rogues got in return that is so good

---------- Post added 2012-06-21 at 04:06 PM ----------

Exactly. these changes are only going to make you more skilled as a rogue and make you choose you're gcd's more wisely...

you dont know what your talking about.

[Deleted]

I must say I chuckled when he said, about assassination being too slow, that it could be a bug.

What in the world could be bugged there? You take out plenty of abilities that help with CP generation and stats get totally crushed due to new expansion. What bug man...

[Imkilo]

id love to know exactly what rogues got in return that is so good

---------- Post added 2012-06-21 at 04:06 PM ----------



you dont know what your talking about.

Lol and what makes you think you know what you're talking about?

I'm not saying having to choose between prep/step is a good thing. skilled rogues can control any fight without using prep...

[Deleted]

Out of all things that have been said and all the design choices they made, I find it weird you pick out this one to discuss.

[Coldkil]

It's not a nerf if you get something just as good in return you know...

Like what :P

[Wow]

Wouldn't this all be less frightening if you knew that at 90 PvP rogues will be balanced to have either and obviously not both?
Like.. you think you'll suddenly be much worse than now?

People need to learn perspective on things.

If only that was the case, But we're balanced around prep if we take it or not. So things are pretty terrible.

[Mafic]

Fundamental problem is they are forcing choices that shouldn't be happening. By their design intent they want to force difficult choices, but this is taking it a bit far in my opinion.

For non prep Rogues, Nerve Strike, and Leeching Poison, are must have talents. Without either of these talents a non prep Rogue has poor survivability and having to spend CPs keeping Recup up constantly is a massive nerf to sustained and burst damage output.

A Prep Rogue has better survivability tools, but they are pointless when you factor in that Nerve Strike and Leeching work at their best with higher uptime on the target. So, Deadly Throw and Elusivness are more appealing choices.

IMVHO some people are saying that for competitive play Prep will prevail, but I don't see it. As good as having more cool downs are, if you don't have the ability to Shadow step + Kidney or Shadow Step + Kick for quick switches it is pointless. Throw in that for Prep rogue Versatility isn't a good choice and they have to go with Shuriken Toss to pair with Deadly Throw.

[ophion1990]

Lol and what makes you think you know what you're talking about?

I'm not saying having to choose between prep/step is a good thing. skilled rogues can control any fight without using prep...

The problem wasn't just prep/step it's also the fact that elusiveness is gone and all our abilities have increased cooldowns now. Just remove prep, lower cooldowns and give us some other gap closer so the tier actually makes sense. That way everyone can stop QQing about how OP prep is aswell.

[Brightnail]

The problem wasn't just prep/step it's also the fact that elusiveness is gone and all our abilities have increased cooldowns now. Just remove prep, lower cooldowns and give us some other gap closer so the tier actually makes sense. That way everyone can stop QQing about how OP prep is aswell.

What is funnier is that the druid version of Vanish is on a 1miute CD, ours 3 minutes. Rets new prep ability is MUCH better than ours.

Gotta love GC, seems that ever since he's come on board the game is taking a dive...

[Pikapika]

What is funnier is that the druid version of Vanish is on a 1miute CD, ours 3 minutes. Rets new prep ability is MUCH better than ours.

Gotta love GC, seems that ever since he's come on board the game is taking a dive...

Trust me, he's not the only incompetent one on the class design team.