GC and rogues..

[Deleted]

It makes perfect sense if the goal is terrible in pvp and not fun in pve.

Oh, not at all. We don't need terribly designed cooldowns and the lack of mobility to doom us in PVP. The mechanics of our specs do that sufficiently.
Assassination's horrible energy generation and dependency on Rupture makes it a generally bad PVP spec...
Combat's low energy generation, combined with the endless Bandit's Guile ramp up and its dependency of white auto attacks make it inviable for PVP as well...
And Sub was dealt the killing blow the moment Blizz thought tying 25% of its damage to Rupture was a good idea, effectively killing the only spec we had that didn't have target-specific ramp up...

The mechanics are fucking us over sufficiently. We don't need badly designed cooldowns and talents to suck.

---------- Post added 2012-06-22 at 06:49 PM ----------

Nothing any of you say changes the fact that Rogues are going to be balanced with Prep AND Step in mind, so we're going to be left in a hole either way since we can only choose one.

Exactly.
They have two possible routes they can go, as far as I'm concerned.
1. Remove Prep and get it over with
2. Buff the talents to grants what the other talent should. Something like... Step + Elusiveness and Prep + Improved Sprint.

As it is, it just doesn't work.

[Deleted]

And Sub was dealt the killing blow the moment Blizz thought tying 25% of its damage to Rupture was a good idea, effectively killing the only spec we had that didn't have target-specific ramp up...

If you are talking about Hemorrhage not applying the bleed if Rupture isn't active and everything around that, this has been changed a while ago. Hemorrhage not works exactly like it does on live with a glyph that removes the bleed DoT instead of currently on live where you need a glyph to make it cause the bleed. We still have loads of issues however.

I'm all for removing Preparation. It's not a fun ability and people have been whining about it since I don't know when. Every single time Preparation comes to the attention of the devs they simply state ''it's hard to balance around preparation'', so please just removed it already. I don't know about you guys but I'm not even going to miss the piece of junk.

[Flaks]

Love how people keep overlooking the fact that burst of speed is easily the most powerful mobility tool in the game and WILL get picked over prep and SS come MoP. You'll realize soon enough to adapt and that you never really needed prep to be competitive unless you didn't know how to time cds (basically a handicap for terrible players).

[ophion1990]

Honestly if it reduces your capabilities in PvP that is a good thing. Rogues are unbelievably strong this season and if they're capable of doing the same thing in MoP shit will hit the fan for classes that can do absolutely nothing against them for 2 seasons expansions in a row.

Well, if we would stay the same way ability wise (prep/step) then we'd still do about 50% less damage with ambush because the extra crit is gone, so is the + damage but let's just say it's baked into the ability. Other then that we lose our amazing agility and SV scaling, we'll drop about 15-20% in crit chance and lose a reasonable amount of dodge aswell. Remember s9? We hardly got any buffs throughout cata, the biggest thing was some hemo/SV/BS buff and ofcourse 25% healing reduce (which came a season too late).

The reason we're so OP in this season is largely scaling issues aswell, same for feral druids. Whose idea was it to add such a ridiculous multiplier (30% for rogues) to such a strong stats (agility), seriously. Added with SV which scales very well (flat % damage increase) is what causes current problems. Instead of adressing ANY if that stuff they buffed SV. So we'll do lacking damage and play the control dummy in s12 and our damage might very well be over the top again in s14.

Love how people keep overlooking the fact that burst of speed is easily the most powerful mobility tool in the game and WILL get picked over prep and SS come MoP. You'll realize soon enough to adapt and that you never really needed prep to be competitive unless you didn't know how to time cds (basically a handicap for terrible players).

BoS does come with an incredibly high energy cost though, and it's not a gap closer. It's basicly an undispellable freedom with shorter duration. Don't forget it doesn't grant the speed bonus when you use it while rooted. At this point I'm all for removing prep though, I've had it with the endless QQ, just make elusiveness (cata version) baseline (cds are way too high right now, no matter how you look at it) and add some other gap closer skill like I suggested before. Like Imp. sprint (no this isn't like BoS at all) or something.

Just to add, shapeshifting is and has always been, outside of cata (and even then), the most powerful mobility tool in any game ever.

[Mafic]

Love how people keep overlooking the fact that burst of speed is easily the most powerful mobility tool in the game and WILL get picked over prep and SS come MoP. You'll realize soon enough to adapt and that you never really needed prep to be competitive unless you didn't know how to time cds (basically a handicap for terrible players).

BoS is gimped (Energy starved after two times) try it out on beta bro or maam. :P

[Deleted]

If you are talking about Hemorrhage not applying the bleed if Rupture isn't active and everything around that, this has been changed a while ago. Hemorrhage not works exactly like it does on live with a glyph that removes the bleed DoT instead of currently on live where you need a glyph to make it cause the bleed. We still have loads of issues however.

I'm all for removing Preparation. It's not a fun ability and people have been whining about it since I don't know when. Every single time Preparation comes to the attention of the devs they simply state ''it's hard to balance around preparation'', so please just removed it already. I don't know about you guys but I'm not even going to miss the piece of junk.

No, I was referring to the Sanguinary Vein change that forces the player to apply Rupture or Garrote before he can do just a fraction of the damage he's supposed to do.

For PVP, Versatility pretty much has to be mandatory if we're still going to be just slightly viable now. Generating Combo Points is slow and tedious in PVE as it is, but having to track a non-AI enemy, foresee his movements, make sure you don't lose a debuff on said target via the combo points that are so hard to come by, all this while still trying to manage your energy so you won't run out because of the imminent burst you need to unleash on your enemy, while hoping to god you won't have to refresh Rupture mid-burst...

I mean, it's just not right for us to track 2-3 buffs/debuffs in damn PVP! That's ridiculous. To me, this seems like a mixup of PVE mechanics that fuck up PVP. (And PVE for that matter...)

---------- Post added 2012-06-22 at 07:49 PM ----------

Love how people keep overlooking the fact that burst of speed is easily the most powerful mobility tool in the game and WILL get picked over prep and SS come MoP. You'll realize soon enough to adapt and that you never really needed prep to be competitive unless you didn't know how to time cds (basically a handicap for terrible players).

Energy generation is extremely low, making energy a valuable resource. Burst of Speed is one of two things:
1. A trinket effect with a 60 energy cost
2. A Sprint with a 60 energy cost
It's not both, it's only one at a time. The cost is too high compared to its usefulness.

[Mafic]

Shadow step for the win.

Shadow step + Kidney

Shadow Step + Kick

Redirect + Shadow Step + Kidney

etc

Shadow step to a friendly ally in trouble or to escape. Shadow step to a friendly warlock at the top of a ramp, etc. Shadow Step to cross a gap in a ledge or bridge, etc.

[Deleted]

No, I was referring to the Sanguinary Vein change that forces the player to apply Rupture or Garrote before he can do just a fraction of the damage he's supposed to do.

Ah of course, my bad.

[Mafic]

For PVP, Versatility pretty much has to be mandatory if we're still going to be just slightly viable now. Generating Combo Points is slow and tedious in PVE as it is, but having to track a non-AI enemy, foresee his movements, make sure you don't lose a debuff on said target via the combo points that are so hard to come by, all this while still trying to manage your energy so you won't run out because of the imminent burst you need to unleash on your enemy, while hoping to god you won't have to refresh Rupture mid-burst...

Actually no , because Shuriken Toss is a superior version of Deadly Throw for PVP. It snares more reliably (with Deadly Brew), and generates CP's at a low energy cost. Once you use Deadly Throw, and you can't close the gap on your target you will be kited still. Not the case with Shuriken Toss as you can use it constantly. Shuriken Toss can also be used while running while Deadly Throw has that strange pause. In other words Deadly Throw is garbage compared to Shuriken Toss (not sure why they even made it a talent).

[Deleted]

Actually no , because Shuriken Toss is a superior version of Deadly Throw for PVP. It snares more reliably (with Deadly Brew), and generates CP's at a low energy cost. Once you use Deadly Throw, and you can't close the gap on your target you will be kited still. Not the case with Shuriken Toss as you can use it constantly.

I assumed ST didn't activate any poisons? Does that only count for lethal poisons? I.e. Does it actually activate non-lethals? And even if it does, Sub has still lost its ability to do a simple and quick switch burst. Now, assuming you're going without Versatility, you're gonna need that Redirect off cooldown before you can do anything. Without Rupture, sub simply can't compete.

[Verain]

Love how people keep overlooking the fact that burst of speed is easily the most powerful mobility tool in the game and WILL get picked over prep and SS come MoP. You'll realize soon enough to adapt and that you never really needed prep to be competitive unless you didn't know how to time cds (basically a handicap for terrible players).

No, you'll soon realize that burst will be but the latest in a long line of nerfed rogue mobility tools.


Oh, and you'll still need prep. You just won't have it.




Also, deadly throw has no pause. It is instant cast.

ST does activate poisons, despite what the devs initially said. I believe it is actively snaring stuff on the beta, but we'll have to ask a 90 to be sure.

[Deatheryn]

How many classes are having current baseline skills thrown in their tree; Only allows them to pick one thereof; while being balanced around having both?

Well, wouldn't you think if you are balanced around have both abilities and can only have one, that there will be re-balancing done around having only one?

[Mafic]

ST activates lethal and non lethal poisons and with Deadly Brew will proc Crip as well as the lethal and non lethal.

Versatility isn't that good for a Sub Rogue because Rupture can't be really carried over, and yes Sub's ability for quick switches has been wrecked. Sub's energy regeneration is tied to SnD, and you don't need redirect either. Combat has no use for Versatility as Restless Blades reduces the cool down of redirect. Basically, if you use two five point Eviscerates, Combat has 40 second Redirects, so a talent like Versatility isn't appealing seeing Shadow Steps cool down is 24 seconds. So the next time Shadow Step is available theoretically combat has redirect cool down ready for use again.

Edit:

Shiv now has a 10 second cool down while the limitation with Shuriken Toss is a trivial 20 energy cost. Shiv is only a better snare than Shuriken Toss is IF you have it as one of your non lethal poisons (70% snare from a Shiv).

Blizzard makes changes without thinking through the cascading effects.

Removing the CPs from Gouge and Shiv reduces the value of Versatility for PVP. You can shiv or gouge an off target and not lose your CP's on your main target now.

[Verain]

So, I just duelled a kind mage on beta to figure out what is going on with burst.

1)- If you trigger it while not snared or rooted, you get a sprint effect and that is all. You can be snared during the sprint effect.
2)- If you trigger it while rooted, the root goes away, and you get a freedom buff that looks and sounds identical to the sprint buff. The buff appears physical and not subject to dispels. It does not increase your movement.
3)- If you trigger it while snared, the snare DEBUFF seemed to stay, though I ran at full speed- but it could be because the mage snare in question (slow) does other stuff too. Even though the snare debuff outlasted the freedom buff, I did not get snared again when the buff ran out.
4)- When pressed a second time while the freedom effect is active, it gave me the sprint effect. I didn't check to see how that worked with the buff though.


This is a change from early beta, when pressing it gave you the sprint and the freedom if you were snared- it now works like it says on the tooltip.


I still think this will be the go-to "gap closer" for rogues, especially combat rogues.

Also, combat seemed rather good against the mage, but that's just ancedotal at this point. However, I suspect good mages will trade ice block for AR or something in the future, or find some way to get a poly to land on us during that time. I'm 85, so it will be quite some time before our level 90 energy levels are the same- even given that, it's still a lot of energy out of AR.

[Mafic]

If they hadn't nerfed Combat's vitality and Improved Gouge was available BoS would have been awesome. Now? Meh... >.>

[Mathris]

Despite what anyone in this thread has said, Prep will be mandatory for competitive PvP. Period. End of story. You forget, the new MoP prep resets Cloak of Shadows. Something it has *never* done before. That is incredibly powerful. Combine this with the fact that Vanish's CD is 3 mins and you basically have to have it to use twice. It also resets Evasion again which is another insane boost to survival. There is simply too much Rogue utility and survival baked into one talent to make either of the other choices remotely competitive.

Shadowstep is great, being 24 seconds it's inferior to things like Charge/Blink and other movement things on much shorter cooldowns. Burst of Speed looks great on paper and is pretty awful in practice since it takes 60% of your energy just to get to the target to begin with leaving you with no offensive power once you're there.

Case and point. Prep in MoP is even more OP than the Prep on Live and give the other two choices and the other rogue nerfs you will *have* to take it to remain competitive. I don't know how Blizzard hasn't seen this. Any Rogue over 2200 will tell you as much. Look at Wrath, there was a PvP build that lasted the entire expansion without shadowstep. Why? It had Prep. Prep is that good. Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't play a Rogue or doesn't understand competitive Rogue PvP.

[Deleted]

WHAT? Rogues not tip-top PvP class anymore? Heresy!

OT: Choosing between those two seems a bit off, unless Prep has smoke bomb included.

I don't get it though, mutilate was pretty damn good in wrath without prep or shadowstep, it just lacked against ranged but could still do well. That was when rogues didn't have smoke bomb, 1minute sprint, etc.

It's just that sub does everything for the rogue that it's so damn good, amazing against any class despite armor. If you played Muti in wrath, you could engage most classes including plate, if you went sub, you did much better against < plate.

I doubt rogues will be bottom barrel but they won't be the cry-trains they are now. Maybe they will actually be balanced.

[Dazzy]

Despite what anyone in this thread has said, Prep will be mandatory for competitive PvP. Period. End of story. You forget, the new MoP prep resets Cloak of Shadows. Something it has *never* done before. That is incredibly powerful. Combine this with the fact that Vanish's CD is 3 mins and you basically have to have it to use twice. It also resets Evasion again which is another insane boost to survival. There is simply too much Rogue utility and survival baked into one talent to make either of the other choices remotely competitive.

Shadowstep is great, being 24 seconds it's inferior to things like Charge/Blink and other movement things on much shorter cooldowns. Burst of Speed looks great on paper and is pretty awful in practice since it takes 60% of your energy just to get to the target to begin with leaving you with no offensive power once you're there.

Case and point. Prep in MoP is even more OP than the Prep on Live and give the other two choices and the other rogue nerfs you will *have* to take it to remain competitive. I don't know how Blizzard hasn't seen this. Any Rogue over 2200 will tell you as much. Look at Wrath, there was a PvP build that lasted the entire expansion without shadowstep. Why? It had Prep. Prep is that good. Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't play a Rogue or doesn't understand competitive Rogue PvP.

Except the 2400+ rogues on td teams, all or nothing.

[Mafic]

Despite what anyone in this thread has said, Prep will be mandatory for competitive PvP. Period. End of story. You forget, the new MoP prep resets Cloak of Shadows. Something it has *never* done before. That is incredibly powerful. Combine this with the fact that Vanish's CD is 3 mins and you basically have to have it to use twice. It also resets Evasion again which is another insane boost to survival. There is simply too much Rogue utility and survival baked into one talent to make either of the other choices remotely competitive.

Shadowstep is great, being 24 seconds it's inferior to things like Charge/Blink and other movement things on much shorter cooldowns. Burst of Speed looks great on paper and is pretty awful in practice since it takes 60% of your energy just to get to the target to begin with leaving you with no offensive power once you're there.

Case and point. Prep in MoP is even more OP than the Prep on Live and give the other two choices and the other rogue nerfs you will *have* to take it to remain competitive. I don't know how Blizzard hasn't seen this. Any Rogue over 2200 will tell you as much. Look at Wrath, there was a PvP build that lasted the entire expansion without shadowstep. Why? It had Prep. Prep is that good. Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't play a Rogue or doesn't understand competitive Rogue PvP.

Yes Prep is more powerful on beta than live. But the game has changed enough in MoP to invalidate Prep, which is why you will see most Rogues not even bother with it.

Dispels are not easy come anymore in MoP, Crip is nerfed to 50%, and Shiv has a 10 cool down, so a Prep Rogue is fighting an uphill battle in this new environment. Don't compare the new Prep compared to what you know in Cata as that is a common mistake.

Mut/Prep in WotLk worked because it was a different game then, and environment.

[ringpriest]

Exactly. these changes are only going to make you more skilled as a rogue and make you choose you're gcd's more wisely...

Oh bullcrap. Taking away staple abilities we've played with for years is going to make us 'more skilled'? Let's take away mages' evocation - that'll make them spend mana 'more wisely', just as an example. Rogues are getting the shaft in MoP because blizz is too lazy or incompetent to actually balance their existing abilities, much less add several truly useful new ones.