[MoP] Glyph of Riptide

[Wataurenyew]

Well that really depends on HOW the dps are playing bad - being spread out too much isn't the only way - and all ways of dps or tanks playing badly affect all the healers, we have to burn more mana, or use CD's early etc...its part of being a healer. If they screw up, it makes our job harder. If they spread out too much when its not needed, you make it harder for any healer but especially for a paladin or a shaman to raid heal (at least on live).


Why not? Healers have to adapt how they heal each spec of tank (remember early cata, healing a paladin was not the same as healing a bear or DK) - Dps have to adapt to how quickly a tank can generate snap aggro on adds - some are better at it mechanically than others. Dps who fail to adapt get aggro and die.


Shaman arguably have the best mastery for healing "bad play" that isn't a 1 shot already. They happen to be relatively weaker at 1 type of bad play (unnecessary spread raid) And as you said, if your particular raid group has these problems, then the glyph is a great choice for you.

Every time there is a glyph or talent choice and people make a recommendation, it comes with the unspoken caveat that "this is all dependent on the specific group you raid with, as comp, content, skill levels and playstyle may alter the pros and cons of any choice" - hence why saying anything is "mandatory" is foolhardy. What someone sees as mandatory is completely optional to someone else.

Well having to heal different tanks is me failing at healing correctly, but I do see the flip side, that the tank mechanics are forcing the tanks to deal with the fact that their class mechanics are causing the healers to have to play differently.

I also accept the rest of this too, the dps playing badly not saying close is our weakness, but we are stronger than most if the tank is playing badly not using CDs correctly.

This isn't me being "elitist" or anything. I'm not saying they'll be at top performance by then and amazing players. But we're not talking about things like making a macro for the pull that pops SWG while you're in Resto gear, pops a potion, and swaps to your Elemental gear, so you can get that extra little "oomph" at the start. That's a bit complicated and I can understand why trying to get that going can be daunting. We're talking "I should stack up to make it easier on healers, since there's no targeted AoE going out". That's been normal raid behaviour for years now.

I'm not talking about not stacking when they should be, that is a fairly simple concept. I'm talking about fights where you need to reposition frequently and with a slight spread mechanic where they could be with in 12.5 yds, but with that much moving around they just are good enough to keep the minimum range apart while staying with in the jump range of CH. Or grouping in such a way that they are far enough apart but many could still be in HR. Rhyolith was one of my examples, sure they could have stayed closer on the last phase, but staying close to each other and in the HR while avoiding the lasers and doing dps was proving to hard for them, while the I struggled with RT > GHW > GHW our druid was able to continue to heal the raid.

But as Keiyra pointed out, our druid wasn't exactly able to drop 120k crit heals on the tank, so there you go.

There's a pretty clear difference.

One of the things the devs have been asking is WHY people have been crying about the nerfs to raids. Most of the responses end up getting boiled down to "my achievement means less if everyone else can achieve it too". It's a bad reason.

Here, we're just talking a relatively simple concept that DPS are supposed to be aware of. It's "don't stand in the fire" or "try and do as much DPS as you can" level stuff. It's not high-end cutting-edge raidcraft.

And a lot of the other people were pretty much saying I could do it why can't you? Which is close to what your argument was boiling down to.
So I still say no just because the others are playing badly isn't a reason that I should be harder pressed to heal than other healers. However, I do rescind my rant as it has been pointed out we are better than other healers in managing other situations of others playing badly.

---------- Post added 2012-07-13 at 02:23 PM ----------


Moving on to discussing MOP

What I'd like to see is if a CH cast can out perform a glyphed RT.
If that's not the case it seems like RT glyph would need to be nerfed or why ever cast a CH.

And that would be a comparison of CH with and without a RT target.

I'd think if glyphed RT performed less than CH then that would solve us using it for stacked fights. Even if CH is just better when cast off of a RT target.

I think it would be kind of interesting to use both glyphed RT and CH for spread out healing, but if a glyphed RT out performs CH even buffed by RT target then using the CH glyph probably would be inefficient use of a glyph.

[SpaceJam]

I think the statements made by Wataurenyew are the right ones. Not because they support my opinion, but because the apply to a larger player base. Most elite guilds out there have been raiding together since Vanilla, and stacking up for their Shaman (on a fight that doesn't call for it) is second nature to them. It something that doesn't even need to be asked. I guess I should have said it will be mandatory for those types of players of lesser skill and collection of lesser skilled players in their group.

I think we might be done with this mandatory argument =].

Personally, I'm afraid this is going to make Shaman healers easier to play or at least dumb down the spec. I know plenty of REALLY GOOD healers who can't heal with a Shaman, but they could outheal me on any other healer with ease.

[Kenai]

Moving on to discussing MOP

What I'd like to see is if a CH cast can out perform a glyphed RT.
If that's not the case it seems like RT glyph would need to be nerfed or why ever cast a CH.

And that would be a comparison of CH with and without a RT target.

I'd think if glyphed RT performed less than CH then that would solve us using it for stacked fights. Even if CH is just better when cast off of a RT target.

I think it would be kind of interesting to use both glyphed RT and CH for spread out healing, but if a glyphed RT out performs CH even buffed by RT target then using the CH glyph probably would be inefficient use of a glyph.

A Glyphed RT is in most cases outperforming a Glyphed (or unglyphed) CH, from what I can tell. However, I think your reasoning for this is off. I actually think the opposite is true: CH is too weak (while glyphed), or too situational/unnecessary (while unglyphed) in the face of a Glyphed RT. Taking into account our HPS is on the low end of the spectrum in raids (going by 10s here) and the fact that CH is not used much, if at all, by the time the boss is dead (after several different fights and methods are tried by the guilds testing them now), I don't see how a baseline increase to CH without the current glyph's downside would be bad.

Then again, I've been saying that all along. I think spamming RT for all situations is dumb, but if our HPS is as low as it is, we need buffs rather than nerfs right now. We need to make sure the overall kit is healthy before we nerf stuff, or the class won't be in a good place come launch (again).

[Wataurenyew]

A Glyphed RT is in most cases outperforming a Glyphed (or unglyphed) CH, from what I can tell. However, I think your reasoning for this is off. I actually think the opposite is true: CH is too weak (while glyphed), or too situational/unnecessary (while unglyphed) in the face of a Glyphed RT. Taking into account our HPS is on the low end of the spectrum in raids (going by 10s here) and the fact that CH is not used much, if at all, by the time the boss is dead (after several different fights and methods are tried by the guilds testing them now), I don't see how a baseline increase to CH without the current glyph's downside would be bad.

Then again, I've been saying that all along. I think spamming RT for all situations is dumb, but if our HPS is as low as it is, we need buffs rather than nerfs right now. We need to make sure the overall kit is healthy before we nerf stuff, or the class won't be in a good place come launch (again).

I think the actual healing numbers are what matter here, and since CH glyph doesn't do anything to the heals I'm really not considering that.
My issue is that if a glyphed RT is outhealing CH even when buffed by a RT target, then why would you ever cast CH even while stacked?
Unless if there is a large HPM difference.

I didn't say that RT(glyphed) should be nerfed, I said that it should perform (heal) for less than CH under the RT buff.
That could very well be done with a buff to CH, it doesn't necessarily mean a nerf to RT.
And removing the CD on the CH glyph isn't going to fix anything if RT(glyphed) still heals for more than CH while buffed by a RT target.

The perfect balance I think should go like this:
1) RT(glyphed) should out heal CH, when CH target is not affected by RT
2) CH should out heal RT(glyphed) when CH target is affected by RT
3) RT(unglyphed) should out heal CH regardless of whether the target is affected by RT

Benefit for stacked
Discourage the use of RT(glyphed) as RT(unglyphed) + CH Spam would be better
Encourages the use of RT on CD rather than boring CH spam

Benefit for spread
Encourage the use of rolling RT(glyphed) during the CD of CH(glyphed) rather than instead of CH

As a fourth:
Single Target under Conductivity should out perform RT(glyphed) + CH(glyphed)
Single Target under Conductivity should not out perform RT(unglyphed) + CH(unglyphed)

I think this would keep us from ignoring our tools on stacked fights to just go with Conductivity, but it would add something interesting to fights with spread and stacked AOE like Ragnaros.

Start off AOE healing with RT, CH, and HST, then on the stack, use HR, GHW, Conductivity.

Whether balance like this is even possible I have no idea without doing a bunch of math I'm not sure I care to do. However, I think if this balance could be met it would make AOE healing pretty interesting and fun. Obviously this is subjective and many are going to disagree.


Edit: I guess I did say that RT glyph would need to be nerfed.

[Kenai]

I think the actual healing numbers are what matter here, and since CH glyph doesn't do anything to the heals I'm really not considering that.
My issue is that if a glyphed RT is outhealing CH even when buffed by a RT target, then why would you ever cast CH even while stacked?
Unless if there is a large HPM difference.

I didn't say that RT(glyphed) should be nerfed, I said that it should perform (heal) for less than CH under the RT buff.
That could very well be done with a buff to CH, it doesn't necessarily mean a nerf to RT.
And removing the CD on the CH glyph isn't going to fix anything if RT(glyphed) still heals for more than CH while buffed by a RT target.

The perfect balance I think should go like this:
1) RT(glyphed) should out heal CH, when CH target is not affected by RT
2) CH should out heal RT(glyphed) when CH target is affected by RT
3) RT(unglyphed) should out heal CH regardless of whether the target is affected by RT

Benefit for stacked
Discourage the use of RT(glyphed) as RT(unglyphed) + CH Spam would be better
Encourages the use of RT on CD rather than boring CH spam

Benefit for spread
Encourage the use of rolling RT(glyphed) during the CD of CH(glyphed) rather than instead of CH

As a fourth:
Single Target under Conductivity should out perform RT(glyphed) + CH(glyphed)
Single Target under Conductivity should not out perform RT(unglyphed) + CH(unglyphed)

I think this would keep us from ignoring our tools on stacked fights to just go with Conductivity, but it would add something interesting to fights with spread and stacked AOE like Ragnaros.

Start off AOE healing with RT, CH, and HST, then on the stack, use HR, GHW, Conductivity.

Whether balance like this is even possible I have no idea without doing a bunch of math I'm not sure I care to do. However, I think if this balance could be met it would make AOE healing pretty interesting and fun. Obviously this is subjective and many are going to disagree.

I don't necessarily see a problem with this line of thinking, with the exception of Conductivity, because then you are getting into talents which is a whole different ballgame. Conductivity (imo) should be compared to the other talents it that tree to our base toolbox, our different viable Glyph setups, and not much else (because I am pretty interested in seeing how it would theoretically stack up to, say, HTT under various circumstances).

Mana would also be a big concern. So would efficiency, such as setup time, GCD use, ect.

I would like to see this looked at, but too much of this is hypothetical assumption right now for me to want to bother with it personally, and I would probably do it wrong anyway.

My whole issue that I have been whining about the last few pages regarding this is that RT *is* right now, by all accounts I am getting (still DLing the patch). superior to everything else. I do not like this, but I do not think the solution is to automatically nerf the RT Glyph as a result, as GC suggested. Not the good solution, anyway. Nerfing the Glyph would not suddenly make the other ones better, or comparable, or any of that. It's a false assumption that I have been seeing a lot, and I do not like the trend.

[Wataurenyew]

The perfect balance I think should go like this:
1) RT(glyphed) should out heal CH, when CH target is not affected by RT
2) CH should out heal RT(glyphed) when CH target is affected by RT
3) RT(unglyphed) should out heal CH regardless of whether the target is affected by RT

Benefit for stacked
Discourage the use of RT(glyphed) as RT(unglyphed) + CH Spam would be better
Encourages the use of RT on CD rather than boring CH spam

Benefit for spread
Encourage the use of rolling RT(glyphed) during the CD of CH(glyphed) rather than instead of CH

So I wanted to look at this further so I threw together a spreadsheet to try and evaluate the numbers.
If I got these numbers wrong please correct me.

Numbers are assuming 20k SP, 10% Crit, not taking in to consideration Haste just yet.
I did the calculations with EL procs, but the results stayed relatively the same, so I left EL out for simplicity.
EL procs benefited CH more than RT, however I fell the benefit come out about even when you consider CH is more likely to overwrite an EL HoT than RT.

RT - 37,467 HPS
RT (Glyphed) - 28,318 HPS
CH - 24,031 HPS
CH (RT Target) - 25,087

1) 24,031 < 28,318 (True)
2) 25,087 > 28,318 (False)
3) 24,031 / 25,087 < 37,467 (True)

If they buffed the RT buff for CH from 25% to 50%, CH would go to 30,104 HPS.

1) 24,031 < 28,318 (True)
2) 30,104 > 28,318 (True)
3) 24,031 / 30,104 < 37,467 (True)

Looking at GHW (35,397 w/TW) and HS (48,134 w/TW) they would still be more HPS than CH.

However, the HPM would greatly favor CH.

GHW - 3.43 HPM
HS - 4.29 HPM
CH - 5.70 HPM

So if I did these calculations correct at all, it seems like a buff to the RT CH buff would put HPS for RT vs CH where I personally think it should be.

[Wataurenyew]

So obviously nobody has any interest in this subject so I'll let it die, but I would like to ask if anybody has some clarification on how the math on CH works or can point me in the right direction.

I'm assuming that crit chance for each jump is crit% / 4.
We found out that each jump has a 10% chance to proc EL.

What I'm not 100% sure on is how purification, the RT buff and mastery works out.
I've tried looking around, but I'm still not sure.

My assumption is that purification and the RT buff apply to just the first target, then the 30% reductions work from there.

I'm not sure if mastery works the same or if each jump target has it's own separate mastery calculation.

Thanks in advance if anybody can help me with this.