So what has the alliance done thats so bad blizzard?

[Trassk]

I know this will attract the worst kind of people to it like flies to a sandwich left out in the sun, and it will likely lead to arguments, but its something thats really been bothering the crap out of me of late with all thats happened, is happening and will happen.

As horde, I've always followed the belief in those noble savages who faught for there freedom against the oppressive alliance, and won there freedom though hardship. Thats what made the horde cool, that it was a group fighting for survival in all this.

But of late, with what the writers are doing, they seem to say one thing and yet bypass it on another level. I remember the way metzen spoke about mists of pandaria, that we will be the bad guys more or less, those causing his war in pandaria and unleasing the sha.

Thats all well and good, and it would have seemed like an intresting concept given the war causing it.. if it wasn't for the fact it seems the horde are the ones who stand more in the wrong and being the aggressive ones against the alliance well the alliance just runs away and sucks there thumbs, then cries on the forums about it.

Wheres this whole thing of showing the bad that both sides cause to each other, that the ravages of war cause them both to do stupid things and follow blindly into it leading to death and ruin. We have the horde doing such things in cata, gilneas, southshore, ashenvale, and now theramore, a massive example of the ravages of war claiming the lives of both soldiers and innocents.
But the alliance? They only have Taurajo as an example of there warcrimes, and even that was whitewashed by the way the quest of presented, with hawkwind being all 'oh I feel such shame for this!' attitude.

This isn't even remotely a case of both sides doing wrong to one another, this is showing the horde doing all the aggressive action and the alliance either cleaning up or running away. I thought they were going to show the alliance doing as many wrongs to the horde as the horde did to them, but its just not the case here.

I'm not an alliance fan, I'm horde, and yet I find the way this whole thing has been portrayed as laughable. How can it be justified saying 'well both sides are responsible for whats happening on pandaria' then it just seems like the horde strikes, the alliance retaliate and this process repeats. Wheres the badness caused by the alliance to make that statement justified? They just come across as weak.

Ok, Garrosh and his leadership has caused this, I get that blizzard, I hate what the horde has become under him and want to see his rule end. But why does it have to be shown as the alliance does nothing destructive in war, that there isn't consequences for there actions like the horde has with theres? Taurajo is a weak example compared to whats going to happen to theramore.

I also realise this won't be recognized by blizzard but its a debate that bothers the crap out of me anyway. This just doesn't feel like a two sided fight here, those saying blizzard failed to pay attention to making the alliance appear as bad as the horde in wartime, well they were right.

[OMGChexMix]

If Blizzard intentionally makes one faction feel like bad guys it would make me a sad orc

So far in the beta it dosent feel that way though, then again theres hardly any Horde/Alliance conflict yet

[Zaelsino]

Nothing. For a series that prides itself on grey morality and muddied water, this entire faction war is (and continues to be) almost entirely rooted in good vs bad.

It's light vs dark grey, at best.

[Trassk]

Nothing. For a series that prides itself on grey morality and muddied water, this entire faction war is (and continues to be) almost entirely rooted in good vs bad.

It's light vs dark grey, at best.

that's what I mean, I don't get how they can claim its a grey area then it clearly doesn't show this, it just feels like black and white in its current story.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I've played Alliance to 90 now. And the answer is a resounding "nothing."

Maybe this will be solved in the Jade Forest questline, but the Horde are the sole aggressors.

The Horde allied with the Hozen, attacked the Alliance starting area, started a war with the Pearlfin. The Horde pushed the Alliance into fighting, and that led to the Sha.

Then in Kun'lai, the Alliance and Horde do nothing but talk about how they will destroy each other.

[OMGChexMix]

I've played Alliance to 90 now. And the answer is a resounding "nothing."

Maybe this will be solved in the Jade Forest questline, but the Horde are the sole aggressors.
.

um why wouldnt you attack your enemy?

[Trassk]

um why wouldnt you attack your enemy?

thats not the point. although maybe it can be. The point is for blizzard claiming this war is meant to be on two fronts of horde and alliance fighting each other and causing the sha to manifest, it seems more like the horde are the ones on the offensive, well the alliance arn't, and blizzard in there claims that it would be balanced or show the bad side of war on both sides has failed to do so.

[Deleted]

that's what I mean, I don't get how they can claim its a grey area then it clearly doesn't show this, it just feels like black and white in its current story.

It doesn't feel anything like black and white. Nothing at all (even the hints coming from datamining the new Jade Forest shows it).

All that is happening is Garrosh being used as the antagonist, after that, no holds barred on both sides.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

thats not the point. although maybe it can be. The point is for blizzard claiming this war is meant to be on two fronts of horde and alliance fighting each other and causing the sha to manifest, it seems more like the horde are the ones on the offensive, well the alliance arn't, and blizzard in there claims that it would be balanced or show the bad side of war on both sides has failed to do so.

Exactly. Right now the Alliance and Horde have been successfully polarized. The Alliance are angelic saints, and the Horde are back to their fel roots.

As I said, I'm hoping the Jade Forest revamp does balance this out some. Too many originally good Horde races (Blood Elves) have been turned into fel evility by Garrosh.

[Deleted]

I've played Alliance to 90 now. And the answer is a resounding "nothing."

Maybe this will be solved in the Jade Forest questline, but the Horde are the sole aggressors.

The Horde allied with the Hozen, attacked the Alliance starting area, started a war with the Pearlfin. The Horde pushed the Alliance into fighting, and that led to the Sha.

Then in Kun'lai, the Alliance and Horde do nothing but talk about how they will destroy each other.

In the Horde side, was the complete opposite. The Horde survivors, after trying to survive and such, managed to make peace with the Hozen and then the Hozen camp is attacked by the Pearlfin.

But anyway this is no longer canon, the new Jade Forest has a mirrored entrance now for Horde and Alliance.

[Scummer]

Am I a fly ?

Anyway I do agree with the points made. I can only speak from what I've heard and read a tiny bit about as I'm kinda saving most of it for launch.
It seems to be another case that the Horde do something which provokes the Alliance into action, except this time the Horde aren't being framed or goaded, instead they willing do it and in some places enjoy it. It rather concerns me how Varian will be handled cause I almost get the feeling he's gonna get the Night Elf treatment of a fast and almost unexplained personality change.

We aren't being portrayed as having a deep hatred of the Orcs or having a King that hates the Horde for what he's seen them do. We've just lost that grey touch of personality that made humans so interesting during the second war.

It's just another one of those things Blizzard have done that edges me towards playing Horde for Mists rather than Alliance.


Just throwing it out there though Trassk, while these threads can get a little hectic sometimes, saying stuff like the "The alliance just runs away and sucks there thumbs, then cries on the forums about it" doesn't help issues at all and while it tickled me, I've truly had enough of these god forsaken posts about faction treatment during Cata and would rather just look towards the future.

[OMGChexMix]

thats not the point. although maybe it can be. The point is for blizzard claiming this war is meant to be on two fronts of horde and alliance fighting each other and causing the sha to manifest, it seems more like the horde are the ones on the offensive, well the alliance arn't, and blizzard in there claims that it would be balanced or show the bad side of war on both sides has failed to do so.

no i understand what you mean.
Its just the post I was quoting seemed to be showing that the Horde are "bad" for attacking the Alliance when they crash-land.
I mean they are at war, why would you not attack.

Well Im guessing that the war is gonna get crazy, with both sides looking toward "questionable" means to achieve victory, all building up until later on, when we take a step back and are like "is it really worth it?"

Its hard to judge that in the Beta, seeing as it focuses on Pandaria and Panderan problems. While Horde/Alliance conflict is very limited.

[Deleted]

How can it be justified saying 'well both sides are responsible for whats happening on pandaria' then it just seems like the horde strikes, the alliance retaliate and this process repeats. Wheres the badness caused by the alliance to make that statement justified?
They just come across as weak.

It's located in Goldshire's Inn on US Moonguard or EU Argendawn. I doubt any sane developper would like to give honorable backstory to a faction able to commit... this.

Now seriously:

To be weak, nowadays, is committing a great crime... In certain people's minds. Particularly criminals, gangs, and all kind of social predators. If you're weak, you're an easy target. Every advanced civilisation grew up on the fact they fought these people and punished them.

"All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke

By picturing the horde as a giant tribe, where everyone is eager for battle, WoW naturally attracted people with an (even small) mob mentality. That's not an insult, but an observation. During the early years of WoW, you had much more whinny RP players in alliance, and much more nervous pvp kiddies in the horde, right?

By picturing a somehow hesitating alliance, even if leaded by warmongers like Varian (who can't even slap his son to shut him up) the side-effect is to let players think of it as a non-capable faction. The savior of Azeroth is Thrall, not an human or dwarf.

This incapability is what's bad in the Alliance.

But why does it have to be shown as the alliance does nothing destructive in war, that there isn't consequences for there actions like the horde has with theres? Taurajo is a weak example compared to whats going to happen to theramore.

Because of the alliance nature! It was built and still has to be set for defense. Look at the alliance races:
- Humans, faced excitinction due to orcs, demons, scourge. Have to fight a lot of their own people who are completely nuts. Their main capital cities completely wiped out and rebuilt or not rebuilt at all. They still have the greater armed forces out there, but this has to be set into perspective: raise and train a human soldier takes much more time than an orc or forsaken.
- Dwarves, splitted in three clans, just got reunited for cataclysm, had to stay in their mountains, are fairly few, more eager to learn where they are from and drink beer than to fight the horde.
- gnomes, little engineers, contaminated their own city and had to go live in Ironforge. Their inventions sure helped alliance a lot, but lorewise, without them they're nothing. Hence the jokes about taurens walking on gnomes, hell there's even quests about this!
- Night elves, live very long lives, had very few children due to this, were a higly advanced technologie, failed, became tree hugers and fairly good warriors, but lack the numbers to become a renewable strike force. To lose one is to lose a precious ressource.
- Draenei: space refugees, lost their world, faced extinction, if it wasn't for Velen and the Naarus, they would be nothing, even if they're fairly good fighters.
- Worgens: ex humans, created to fight the scourge, ended being a hostile force for those they had to defend from the forsaken, their capital city is in ruins, and just a few of them got saved by the night elves. Good warriors but lack the number, again.

Facing them you have:

- orcs: endemic race, a lot of excellent warriors eager to fight. Can resist any environment, are ridiculously strong, grow fast. The most adaptable and strike-capable war force on Azeroth.
- Tauren: as strong as the orcs, maybe even more, while not as numerous as them, live a quiet life in the protected region of Mulgore wich allows them to stay out of conflict (until cata when they lost a village... While alliance races lost a lot more).
- Trolls: maybe the most numerous race of all of Azeroth, the elves comes from an antic trollish lineage. Even if the darkspears of Vol'jin are the only ones who rejoined the horde, lorewise they still do have empires who can join the fight.
- forsaken: maybe the most powerful race of all of Azeoth right now. Can't die (they're already dead) are leaded by a psychopath ex-high elve, do not feel pain, remorse, or whatever, and just reanime the deads to get more troops! Lorewise they still are the greatest threat out there!
- blood elves: ex high elves who became mana junkies, while fairly few, are very angry against the alliance and embrace their new condition without remorse. Even after the sunwell was fixed, they did not changed their minds. That says a lot.
- Gobelins: excellent offensive engineers, merchants who trade with everyone, have a real talent to rebuilt and start fresh (see Azshara and compare with gnomeregan... Lolz) are certainly more numerous than the gnomes in comparison (lorewise again). Their only weakness is their dependency to kaja... And the fact they're little.

So... Yeah. Alliance is pretty fucked here if a true total war occurs. Would you attack in these conditions or barricade yourself?

Therefore, the alliance cannot cause as much destruction than the horde can. Even if they wanted, they just can't due to NUMBERS issues and their entitlement to defend themselves because they value their lives!

I'm probably biased since I mostly play alliance, but still, this is the feeling I do have of the horde. It's mighty, it's bulky, it's aggressive, and even if it lacks organisation, its members only need a mutual mindset to take action.

Again, Theramore troops were the only ones to attack in horde territory during cataclysm. Retaliation against them is somehow logical. And as you can see, they will not be able to defend themselves properly when the horde will lead a devastating attack on the city itself, destroying it and killing a lot of civilians.

Now, what could be interesting is to see the remnant theramore forces who lost their precious ones going berserk in pandaria, leaded by a psycho Jaina as an expeditionnary force. But I doubt we'll see it, at least in T14/S12.

[Blayze]

I would love to be a dick to the Horde. Only Blizzard are to blame for not bothering to make the Alliance darker through self-righteousness (Since that's our shtick).

[Scummer]

So... Yeah. Alliance is pretty fucked here if a true total war occurs. Would you attack in these conditions or barricade yourself?

If there were a total war the Alliance would win (Numbers, technology, training) , but we never do commit. Heck we apparently can't commit to a war after all the destruction during Cata.

The worst part is that we barely seem to be committed during Pandaria. Theramore is supposed to be the breaking point for the Alliance when they decide it's time to go to town on the Horde.

We should be seeing the Alliance rushing to defeat the Horde as their old hatreds resurface, Humans remembering what the Old Horde did and what Garrosh's Horde has done to Southshore and Theramore.
Dwarves who always support their human allies and would have had minor casualties due to Dwarves living with Humans, Wildhammers whose homes were sacked by Horde soldiers supporting the Dragonmaw.
Gnomes due to their connection to both Humans and Dwarves
Worgen as they lost their home to the Horde.
Draenei who hate the Orcs and who have experience this same type of aggression from the Orcs before and don't wish to see it again.
Night Elves who's old hatreds rekindle especially after their home is ravaged by a Hellscream once again.
Varian and now Jaina hate the Horde for their past and current actions and are in powerful positions to deliver the hurt.

Do we get a sense of the hatred and attempt to defend their home and people like we've seen them do in the Second War? Nope.

[Erudus]

I'm confused by this topic.

Firstly, Warcraft has ALWAYS, since day 1, been about the Horde starting shit with the Alliance.. always.

Dark Portal opens, Horde pours in and facefucks the Alliance. The Alliance win the war (to an extent) and keep the orcs in concentration camps, because (quoting King Terenas) "it was more moral than slaying them on the spot". The Alliance have never been the instagators in Warcraft, they have always defended themselves. I am genuinely finding it hard to think of a single incident that was started by the Alliance. I could say Benedictus, but he was corrupted my the Twilights Hammer or w/e.

I don't remember Blizzard even saying the Alliance would be the ones to start the trouble, all i remember is "because of the war, the sha come" sort of thing. No mention of the Alliance being "Badass" other than Metzen promising a "cool and interesting" storyline for Varian. Also, i highly doubt Blizzard will change the Alliance's ways.

Also, people mentioning Jaina, i kind of don't agree with this storyline coming in to WoW... In the Third War the Undead literally raped her homelands and turned her lover (Arthas) into a nutter, yet, the Horde attack one town and she goes ape shit? Yeah, i disagree wholeheartedly.

[Deleted]

If there were a total war the Alliance would win (Numbers, technology, training) , but we never do commit. Heck we apparently can't commit to a war after all the destruction during Cata.

I really doubt it, besides the humans, what alliance force equals any other Horde force in terms of numbers and aggressivity?

The worst part is that we barely seem to be committed during Pandaria. Theramore is supposed to be the breaking point for the Alliance when they decide it's time to go to town on the Horde.

We should be seeing the Alliance rushing to defeat the Horde as their old hatreds resurface, Humans remembering what the Old Horde did and what Garrosh's Horde has done to Southshore and Theramore.
Dwarves who always support their human allies and would have had minor casualties due to Dwarves living with Humans, Wildhammers whose homes were sacked by Horde soldiers supporting the Dragonmaw.
Gnomes due to their connection to both Humans and Dwarves
Worgen as they lost their home to the Horde.
Draenei who hate the Orcs and who have experience this same type of aggression from the Orcs before and don't wish to see it again.
Night Elves who's old hatreds rekindle especially after their home is ravaged by a Hellscream once again.
Varian and now Jaina hate the Horde for their past and current actions and are in powerful positions to deliver the hurt.

I agree completely but that's not (it seems) the way alliance is supposed to be seen or act... This is getting ridiculous.

Do we get a sense of the hatred and attempt to defend their home and people like we've seen them do in the Second War? Nope.

That's the interresting part of the game: the social relation between faction lore and player behavior. I really do think if the alliance-only players were a little better in PVE and PVP and showed it to the community with a fierce look, Blizzard would treat this faction otherwise.

Instead of this, we only see whinning on forums.

I suppose there's a part of player's psychology analysis under the lore development wich occurs in game.

[grisset]

Also, people mentioning Jaina, i kind of don't agree with this storyline coming in to WoW... In the Third War the Undead literally raped her homelands and turned her lover (Arthas) into a nutter, yet, the Horde attack one town and she goes ape shit? Yeah, i disagree wholeheartedly.

Lordaeron is not Jaina's homeland, Kul Tiras is. And it was the Scourge that attacked Lordaeron, not the Foresaken. Jaina can tell the difference. The attack on Theramore is a whole new thing for her to deal with. Innocents, that she has sworn to protect and rule with wisdom, killed, not by a mindless, all consuming evil, but by a group of people she has protected, fought along side with, and trusted.

[Erudus]

Lordaeron is not Jaina's homeland, Kul Tiras is. And it was the Scourge that attacked Lordaeron, not the Foresaken. Jaina can tell the difference. The attack on Theramore is a whole new thing for her to deal with. Innocents, that she has sworn to protect and rule with wisdom, killed, not by a mindless, all consuming evil, but by a group of people she has protected, fought along side with, and trusted.

I was more referring to the Eastern Kingdoms and not Lordaeron...

Also, the Scourge were undead were they not? Did i say "Forsaken"? I don't think I did, you read "Undead" and presumed I meant the Forsaken.

Have you read the Rise of the Lich King book? It shows just what Jaina went through during the Third War, seeing all of the innocents (not knowing who was and who was not infected) killed in Stratholm by her own future husband and seeing the one she was going to spend the rest of her life with walk away from her. The fact she saw all of this happen and then the Horde destroy the one Alliance Military base on the whole of Kalimdor and she goes nuts, doesn't float my boat imo

[Trassk]

Its like, the rewards for the fall of theramore. The alliance get a tabard saying 'rememeber theramore' and the horde get a mini mana bomb.
This is there way of pretty much condoning the hordes action into trying to destroy theramore, and the alliances lose of it.

I might not have a problem with destroying theramore, if it actually felt justifiable in attacking it, such as having the alliance do something equally bad to the horde, but they don't, instead its just another case of the horde destroys an alliance town and the alliance have to clean up, and we get an award for making it happen?

I know blizzard wanted to bring the war back into warcraft, but this method is retarded, it makes the horde appear as the bad guys and the alliance will defeat it, yet how can that even be the case when you can't just disband a faction like the horde with its playerbase.