The 'Real' MMO Holy Trinity

[Osprey39]

I keep reading threads like this one: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2-actually-did where people refer to 'the trinity' or 'the holy trinity' and it's been bugging me because what they are referring to, the now standard mmo roles of tank/healer/dps, is not really what the term refers to, at least not originally.

In the interest of keeping the history (history or trivia? lol) of the genre alive, I thought I'd share some of my old-timer knowledge on the origin of this term. It comes from classic EQ way back in the early days of the Ruins of Kunark expansion (might have been coined in the original game, I didn't start playing until Kunark though.) It is important to note that it did not refer to group roles at all but rather to individual classes. Those 3 classes were warrior, cleric and enchanter and it was a widely held belief that if you played one of those classes, you had no problem finding groups (unless the server knew you were terrible.) Back then in EQ you needed a group for just about anything and people would sometimes be sending zonewide messages looking for groups for hours and then a 'trinity' class could enter the zone and announce they were looking for group and have 5 offers in 20 seconds. So in essence, that widely held belief was actually pretty true.

I should probably mention why those classes were so desired by groups. Warriors were far and away the best tanks. Paladins could tank but they weren't in the same league (there were also other reasons but I won't go into them for the sake of brevity.) Clerics were far and away the best healers. Druids and Shamans could heal but they both lacked the godly Complete Heal spell that Clerics had and that made them greatly inferior healers. Enchanters were crowd control guys. There weren't any classes even close to them with their assortment of mezzes and attack speed slows. They were also the only class with a mana regen buff which was a must have for mana users. Basically you could make a grind group without these 3 classes but if you were going to do anything hard (you know, where you might get a decent loot drop) you needed them so they were in high demand.

Basically, even if you change the definition of the original term to include class roles and not just specific classes, the holy trinity has been gone since WoW came out because that game lessened the importance of crowd control to a great degree and spread the abilities to many classes. It's now a 'holy duality' if you will. DPS was never part of the equation and never will be because DPS players are a dime a dozen. Not saying that to demean, I usually play a DPS main myself but it's a fact that blowing stuff up is more fun than being a meatshield or a healbot and it will always attract the majority of players. I would go so far as to say that if a new game came out with 8 classes and 6 of them were healers and tanks and 2 were DPS, the 2 DPS classes would have more players than the other 6 combined :P

So what GW2 has gotten rid of is really a holy duality and not a trinity and thus ends your MMO trivia thread for the day

[Eorayn]

That means Guild Wars 2 will probably bring the original holy trinity element back. I am sure there will be a few professions that are superior to others.

[Exroyal]

That means Guild Wars 2 will probably bring the original holy trinity element back. I am sure there will be a few professions that are superior to others.

Within certain elements, yes.

A supporting guardian would certainly be better then a supporting thief i would believe. Then again, a dps thief would be better then a dps guardian.

[Delias]

We have had plenty of trinity based threads in the past, most of which have went on for at least 20 pages of flame wars. Could we please avoid starting another thread on the subject? o.O
Hell, there's an active thread on the topic RIGHT NOW that you already linked.

[Smeeh]

Things evolve... it used to be 3 classes in EQ, now the (holy) trinity refers to: tank, healer and damage classes. Its pretty simple really

[Taliesyn]

I miss my enchanter. :-(

Of course, the class was ridiculously overpowered, so much so that they ended up designing all content under the assumption an enchanter was in the group, but it was a fun role to play. No other class could take an out-of-control situation with mobs adding left and right, and manage it over ten minutes to result the six players all standing over the bodies of twenty-some mobs. (Actual experience in Lower Guk in the Jail. The cleric had been moaning that enchanters were useless until that runner got away.)

[Lucky_]

The "damage doesn't matter" is something WoW evolved from long ago as well. For example, hard heroics in BC were not really up to tanks and healers. They were up to how many high damage dealers with hard CC you had. Triple mage team in heroic shattered halls could carry the timed run easily, while even the best tank and healer would run into problems with three damage dealers that lacked hard control even if damage dealers were good at actual damage. If they were about average, you'd fail miserably.

Obvious caveat - in appropriate gear which back then was T4 without too much T5 level gear which started to let you overpower it. Truly hardcore did it in pre-T3 blue gear, and that was harder then cataclysm heroics in levelling gear. Luckily you usually didn't have to do attunement with blue gear.

[Osprey39]

Things evolve... it used to be 3 classes in EQ, now the (holy) trinity refers to: tank, healer and damage classes. Its pretty simple really

Well using that definition, every class in every game since WoW is part of the trinity so what's not to like about it?

[Merendel]

Back in that erra mass CC was more prevalent and the pve game was balanced around its existence. The problem is mass CC is near impossible to balance for in PVP and is very frustrating to the person CC'd. It effectively comes down to whoever fires a telling shot first. DAoC was a prime example of this issue in RvR. 1 good AOE mez could lock down a large force for over a minute at a cast leting the casters side pick that force apart at their leasure. This lead to continuing nerfs to CC both directly and through CCbreak abilities. Yet no mater how much they tried to margionalize CC it always was always decisive when applied. Later games such as wow went with much more modest levels of CC and even there they needed to keep nerfing it for years. CC got to the point where it was margionalized in PVE because of PVP reasons and the content was balanced around that fact effectivly removeing CC(enchanter) as the third pillar of the trinity. It was still important (bc erra heroics all but required 1 or more mages to be easier) but no longer the pillar it once was as tanks/heals were balanced to take several targets on at once instead of geting gibed if CC was not there.

Still even in EQ tank and healer were 2 of the trinity, there were just very clear best classes for those 2 roles that narrowed things down to those 2 classes being needed. While CC was more valuable then and therefore the main 3rd pillar DPS was still needed as you could not kill quickly without them, they were just so prevelent that there was no shortage of them.

[raddry]

is not really what the term refers to, at least not originally.

Actually it would be Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Hmm seems fitting, tank, dps healer?

Anyway thanks for telling this I started playing MMO's with WoW in TBC so didn't get to play EQ, and it sounds to be the ultimate ancestor of all MMO's. Would've been fun to play it.

[Osprey39]

Actually it would be Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Hmm seems fitting, tank, dps healer?

Anyway thanks for telling this I started playing MMO's with WoW in TBC so didn't get to play EQ, and it sounds to be the ultimate ancestor of all MMO's. Would've been fun to play it.

It was fun because it was unique at the time. It was like pen and paper games brought to life visually. Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of incredibly frustrating aspects of EQ but I can't say I've ever had the same 'wow, this is cool!' feeling in any MMO since.

[raddry]

It was fun because it was unique at the time. It was like pen and paper games brought to life visually. Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of incredibly frustrating aspects of EQ but I can't say I've ever had the same 'wow, this is cool!' feeling in any MMO since.

I know what you mean. Never have I came back to WoW with the same feeling. When I started, it really felt huge. Completly lost in a huge world full of mystery. That was really cool. I never had that feeling ever since.

[DrakeWurrum]

Well using that definition, every class in every game since WoW is part of the trinity so what's not to like about it?

Because the holy trinity refers to dedicated roles. If you're a Prot Warrior, you're a tank. Period. If you're a Disc Priest, you're a healer. Period.

The holy trinity limits what you can do by pushing your specialization into one distinct job. Job, btw, being just another word for "class" the same way profession is.

You need to remember that the guys who started WoW were actually originally EQ players who hated many aspects of EQ design, and basically shouted angrily at the devs "Well we're gonna go make our own game, and it's gonna be AWESOME!"

[Synyster Spirit]

I feel like the "Holy Trinity" stuff is a play on buzz words and hype.

GW2 will be no different than the games it's trying to set itself apart from if there are only a couple viable builds for each class.

Essentially the Holy Trinity was about being forced into a spec. Those specs were Tank, Healer, and DPS. You remove those arbitrary names and replace them with trait builds.

I wouldn't be surprised to see people wanting specific professions and trait builds in a group whether it be for PvP or PvE simply because of what one professions brings over another. It's really no different from any other MMO I've played. A load of semantics. At the same time it shouldn't be an issue. You'll have "This fight is easier with this comp, but still doable regardless." It really only affects people with a min-max mindset that strive for efficiency and optimization.

[Osprey39]

Because the holy trinity refers to dedicated roles. If you're a Prot Warrior, you're a tank. Period. If you're a Disc Priest, you're a healer. Period.

The holy trinity limits what you can do by pushing your specialization into one distinct job. Job, btw, being just another word for "class" the same way profession is.

You need to remember that the guys who started WoW were actually originally EQ players who hated many aspects of EQ design, and basically shouted angrily at the devs "Well we're gonna go make our own game, and it's gonna be AWESOME!"

Yeah, I understand why dedicated roles are less than desirable to many people, myself included. My point was that EQ, you were either one of those trinity classes or you were left out in the cold as far as groups went. That is unless you were good buddies with someone that played one of those classes and refused to join any groups that wouldn't also take you. Under the more modern definition of the term, every class can fit in a group but I heartily agree that being pigeonholed into only doing one role for your character's entire existence is kind of boring. Rift addressed that in a way with their multiple role system but it still didn't completely remedy the problem of needing a tank and a healer for everything.

[DrakeWurrum]

http://mesmer.pl/?p=157

It may be different from the original, but it still evolved from the original. Originally, it was just three classes. Even in WoW, originally, who did what was primarily decided by class. Then Blizzard decided that sucked, and evolved into multiple classes fitting into multiple roles. So they spread the love around, but kept the dedicated roles.

Arena Net has decided that's not good enough anymore, and that while it works, it has flaws that are worth addressing. Now everybody has every role at the same time. The roles are still there, but there's no dedicated roles limiting what a player can do, and it's designed in such a way that you're never going to require a specific profession or even build.

[Osprey39]

I feel like the "Holy Trinity" stuff is a play on buzz words and hype.

GW2 will be no different than the games it's trying to set itself apart from if there are only a couple viable builds for each class.

Essentially the Holy Trinity was about being forced into a spec. Those specs were Tank, Healer, and DPS. You remove those arbitrary names and replace them with trait builds.

I wouldn't be surprised to see people wanting specific professions and trait builds in a group whether it be for PvP or PvE simply because of what one professions brings over another. It's really no different from any other MMO I've played. A load of semantics. At the same time it shouldn't be an issue. You'll have "This fight is easier with this comp, but still doable regardless." It really only affects people with a min-max mindset that strive for efficiency and optimization.

I can't argue with what you're saying because I've been playing GW1 to try and get the Hall of Monuments stuff before the GW2 launch and I see it in that game. When people are doing hard modes and asking for people in alliance chat, they are usually pretty specific about what prof combos and builds they want.

[DrakeWurrum]

I feel like the "Holy Trinity" stuff is a play on buzz words and hype.

GW2 will be no different than the games it's trying to set itself apart from if there are only a couple viable builds for each class.

Essentially the Holy Trinity was about being forced into a spec. Those specs were Tank, Healer, and DPS. You remove those arbitrary names and replace them with trait builds.

I wouldn't be surprised to see people wanting specific professions and trait builds in a group whether it be for PvP or PvE simply because of what one professions brings over another. It's really no different from any other MMO I've played. A load of semantics. At the same time it shouldn't be an issue. You'll have "This fight is easier with this comp, but still doable regardless." It really only affects people with a min-max mindset that strive for efficiency and optimization.

Yeah, not going to happen. We've had tons of people playing the betas, both public and closed. People who tried to tank, failed. People who tried to be healers, were useless. People who only did damage, were even more useless because they didn't support the team - they just stabby stabbed.

[Coombs]

I miss EQ.

[Merendel]

I can't argue with what you're saying because I've been playing GW1 to try and get the Hall of Monuments stuff before the GW2 launch and I see it in that game. When people are doing hard modes and asking for people in alliance chat, they are usually pretty specific about what prof combos and builds they want.

Thats cause there are a few builds that are particularly OP that depend on specific synergies of skills between a primary/secondary proffesion pair. An Imbagon is an obvious example being designed to use the PVE shout "Save Yourselves!" and maintain a near 100% uptime granting the whole party 100 armor. Considering damage is halved for every time you increase armor by 40 you can see how much of an impact that would have on a group and why folks ask for it. Part of why they tied many skills to specific weapons and did away with secondary proffessions was to make it easier to avoid those weird supersynergy situations. They can balance skills around a specific classes toolbox vs haveing to examin every classes toolbox to see if they have 1 or 2 skills that used in tandom will make skill X beyond OP.