Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Swampmoose]

From Dakeshi's twitter: https://twitter.com/Dakeshii/status/445000421074292736 - conversation with Celestalon.

Lol. He responded directly to someone who complained about the slow clunky crap you are all bitching about and he said "Right, and I understand that concern, and am informing you that we are keeping that in mind, and not changing it." He also says "I understand that it's hard to convey through 140char, but your concerns aren't being ignored." Seems very clear that they understand.

Even right from the start he says, if you care about and stack haste, there will be little "negligible impact, if any." If there is "negligible impact, if any" to your play style going from 17000 haste, to I don't know, 1000 haste, and you don't think that there is going to be any scaling adjustments, you are delusional.

Maybe if the person who started the convo defined "changes" it would be completely clear. Guess that's a problem with having convos on twitter. Not enough characters to be thorough.

I don't know what you're talking about. I loved seal of casino.

Said no one ever.

I still remember going into icc when the pre-cata 4.0 hit. Got the second bite on blood queen, had skillmourne, ended up losing to a lock who had 4th bite. Epic balance.

Of all the Xpacs and instances you could choose to rag on, Wrath and ICC is probably the last one I would ever pick. We were very good in ICC and talking about balance on a gimmick fight is pretty silly.

The holy wod thread is kinda dead because we dont have enough data and we dont know how exactly raid healing will be. How do you discuss about an spec when they wrote like 3 lines about it? we arent going to circlejerk for 50+ pages about how bad and lame are our lvl100 talents and the cast time in the finishers.

Soooo, same as Ret?

Other Classes aren't as reliant on haste to actually do ANY attacks whatsoever as ret is. It's not the same.

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Wotlk Divine storm and the fact Seal of Blood hurting yourself was a thing was exceptionally poor desing. Could you imagine if SoB still existed when Lich King heroic was current? Infest would skullfuck you.

Cata? Only class do go live with a dps neutral mastery and severely undertuned and progressively buffed.

MoP: Hey guys I know we gutted and refined ret and it's 2 weeks before beta but we are going to Gut Sword of light by 15% of your total damage. Enjoy!

How do I fully expect WoD to go?

SoB isn't working and removal of uniqu really hurt ret scaling. We did not see this coming ~Blizztard

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Ugh Edit button acting up again

Vanilla: Holy Strike LOL nop healbitch
TBC: LOL Enjoy seal of casino and your mana Allaince bitches Bloodelves get functional tools. 10 sec CS and Spellpower? Sounds Legit! Hurpdurp

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I mean it would be easy to be hopeful if there was one single precedent of them not poorly and last minute tuning ret. Why should we expect change? Rets love roller coasters.

They have made mistakes but I challenge you to find another class that has never had their ups and downs either. I would actually feel more comfortable now with less change being announced because it is less for them to fck up. If they started listing change after change, there would be uproar....now, there are very few changes listed...still uproar. Never changes. But I think the real questions is, why are you banned again? I browse this forum on rare occasion, and post even less, and you are always banned.

[Maegor]

Lol. He responded directly to someone who complained about the slow clunky crap you are all bitching about and he said "Right, and I understand that concern, and am informing you that we are keeping that in mind, and not changing it." He also says "I understand that it's hard to convey through 140char, but your concerns aren't being ignored." Seems very clear that they understand.

Even right from the start he says, if you care about and stack haste, there will be little "negligible impact, if any." If there is "negligible impact, if any" to your play style going from 17000 haste, to I don't know, 1000 haste, and you don't think that there is going to be any scaling adjustments, you are delusional.

Maybe if the person who started the convo defined "changes" it would be completely clear. Guess that's a problem with having convos on twitter. Not enough characters to be thorough.

Dude, he knew Dakeshi was asking about changing the 1:1 relationship between haste and SoB. He flatly said no change "why would it" change. I understand that you are preaching patience and "wait and see", which is fine, but Celestalon has also said that they want to make stats "more even, but not completely even". That worries a lot of people since they won't be as free to stack haste or mastery or whatever ends up being THE stat, since you won't be able to reforge, and there will less gem slots (not going to mention reforging, because from the interviews on the 6th, it sounded like there would be enchants for most if not all stats on pieces that are enchantable, meaning you won't just have the option of something like crit or hit on your back anymore).

It just worries people that if they aren't getting the gear with the ideal stats that they will fall behind, and nobody wants to look weak, and then have that be because you can't get the correct gear for your class because you are dependent on a certain amount of a stat.

And you're right, they do screw specs up from time to time and it isn't a sole ret issue. But when they do screw up a class with only one dps option, it puts you in a tough spot.

But I think the real questions is, why are you banned again? I browse this forum on rare occasion, and post even less, and you are always banned.

He wouldn't be Anaxie if he didn't get banned on a regular basis.

[trystero]

How someone can blindly believe what's tweeted by a FOTM Blue baffles me. Total stat balance is not achievable. It won't happen. And you're going to have an expansion where stats aren't as as easy to come by as they were in the past. Now players will fall behind not only because of ilvl but because the gear they are looting does not have the 'good stats' on them. So let's say haste is king (which it likely will be) and you can't win any pieces with haste on them. Reforge crit to haste? Nah, sorry, too difficult for bad players to manage, I mean, it's got mathematics in it, super involved. I can gem though, right? Nope again, because reasons.

But Blizzard's FOTM blue says "don't worry, we're on it." Sure, just like they were on balancing specs this expansion. Oh, my bad, not at all, where warlocks were bar none head and shoulders above everyone else. The whole expansion. But that's according to public numbers, not their "internal numbers" which obviously are more reliable just because they said so. The literally thousands of logs we all have aren't reliable. No, we should be listening to their incredibly sophisticated black box simulations. Remember when they went around BSing everyone about Windwalkers by saying they're the best spec in the game, just that no one's playing them correctly, that there's some secret formula to unlock to achieve their true potential? Lol

Posters are absolutely correct to view Blizzard's upcoming game design, and their position on it, with skepticism.

[Fredzilla]

Of all the Xpacs and instances you could choose to rag on, Wrath and ICC is probably the last one I would ever pick. We were very good in ICC and talking about balance on a gimmick fight is pretty silly.

If you had noticed, i said "when 4.0 hit". Before 4.0 I had no problems with how we were or how good we were relative to other classes (except that fire mages were still better than us when we had SM, but that's a different story). But once 4.0 hit we went down the drain, and were essentially crap until DS pretty much. I used the BQL example to show how ridiculous the nerfs going into 4.0 were. It's a gimmick fight sure, but I knew well how to play ret, I had shadowmourne, and got the gimmick 100% damage buff 2 cycles before our lock and I still lost to her.

If you're going to pick a bone with my posts, make sure not to just cherry pick parts out of them -.^

[trystero]

The conversations we had gave me the answers and info I was looking for. If I was looking for something else, I'd ask about it.


Also @tryestro: You should probably calm down and stop taking things out of proportions. Your post achieves nothing but discussion between bashing and defending blizzard so I don't see what you're trying to achieve with it.


Probably said this in every post i've made the last 2 months, but people need to stop making assumptions and theories based on the little information we have. For all we know, they are changing formulas and scaling already. Wait until the information is available before you complain, as at that point it will be constructive. Right now it just brings toxic discussions.

I am calm, thanks. I can voice displeasure with Blizzard's reasoning, philosophy, and design, while at the same time being "calm."

I was (clearly) responding to a poster who seems shocked that people don't find the 'wait and see' approach to be rational. Why should I take stock in what Blizzard promises us when their track record's so poor? Sorry that I don't find this to be persuasive reasoning: "we're listening to you, believe us, but we can't tell you how." And I don't want to hear that it's largely a result of Twitter's character limitations. There are other ways to post to this community than on Twitter.

[Maegor]

Twitter is often times the best way to get an answer to a direct question you have. Blogs and blue posts (unless responded to in a thread) are more like a "shot in the dark" where they try to cover everything while not bogging people down with mechanics. Some people don't want to know how less weapon damage, but higher AP effects gameplay. If they talked about the mechanics, they would scare people off. Very similar to how a lot of newspapers that are going for a large swath of the population write stories on a 3rd-5th grade level. Gotta have your target audience be able to interpret the message. Blogs on the official site are meant for even the most casual of players. A medium like twitter is where they can discuss gritty details, just not fleshed out.

[Swampmoose]

Dude, he knew Dakeshi was asking about changing the 1:1 relationship between haste and SoB. He flatly said no change "why would it" change.

You flat out said that they laughed off fixing scaling when someone asked about "adjustments (your word)" to SoB on Twitter. This coming from your concern of having a slow play-style. Nowhere have I seen this, and your link does not show it either. I quoted above that they understand your concerns of slow play and that there will be little to no impact to your current play style if you continue to stack haste. This absolutely HAS to come with scaling adjustments to SoB because having 5% of the haste you have now is not going to maintain that faster play. A 5% difference is jack sht and will essentially make SoB useless. I'm sorry but what am I missing?

When I read Celestalon's responses, I see his first reply of "why would it (change)" as a response to the design of SoB, not scaling.

The conversations we had gave me the answers and info I was looking for. If I was looking for something else, I'd ask about it.

Well there clearly seems to be some confusion on "change" vs "adjustments" here so while you two may have been able to read each other's minds through some subliminal connection, there is certainly room for misinterpretation on the surface.

Probably said this in every post i've made the last 2 months, but people need to stop making assumptions and theories based on the little information we have. For all we know, they are changing formulas and scaling already. Wait until the information is available before you complain, as at that point it will be constructive. Right now it just brings toxic discussions.

Logic prevails.

If you had noticed, i said "when 4.0 hit". Before 4.0 I had no problems with how we were or how good we were relative to other classes (except that fire mages were still better than us when we had SM, but that's a different story). But once 4.0 hit we went down the drain, and were essentially crap until DS pretty much. I used the BQL example to show how ridiculous the nerfs going into 4.0 were. It's a gimmick fight sure, but I knew well how to play ret, I had shadowmourne, and got the gimmick 100% damage buff 2 cycles before our lock and I still lost to her.

If you're going to pick a bone with my posts, make sure not to just cherry pick parts out of them -.^

My bad BRO. Pre-coffee and too much multi-quoting.

Twitter is often times the best way to get an answer to a direct question you have. Blogs and blue posts (unless responded to in a thread) are more like a "shot in the dark" where they try to cover everything while not bogging people down with mechanics. Some people don't want to know how less weapon damage, but higher AP effects gameplay. If they talked about the mechanics, they would scare people off. Very similar to how a lot of newspapers that are going for a large swath of the population write stories on a 3rd-5th grade level. Gotta have your target audience be able to interpret the message. Blogs on the official site are meant for even the most casual of players. A medium like twitter is where they can discuss gritty details, just not fleshed out.

About to start a twitter account for an actual answer.

[Maegor]

Swamp, don't take things so personally. It would be surprising to me if they changed the scaling of SoB because at end tier of the xpac we probably will be able to get good amounts of haste (35%+ with correctly itemized gear + enchants + gems). The worry people are expressing is opening tier. What a lot of people have gotten used to this tier is cycling through abilities very quickly with a low gcd and it is an engaging play style. Whether damage is tuned correctly or not, I agree with you and Dakeshi, we just have to wait and see. There isn't anything we can pull from the data available (besides Celestalon's comments in the interviews that we are under tuned), that can prove or disprove this.

I'm not saying they can't change the scaling of SoB, just that they haven't used SoB as a tuning mechanic so far. When we've been tuned this xpac it has been through SoL. That is an easier knob to turn and effect output than SoB is. Adjusting SoB mid xpac is a lot more invasive in the sense that it affects the gear you have equipped at the time, so if you adjust it from a 1:1 ratio at the start, then it is hard to adjust it back mid xpac. And it has less precision than a SoL tune as well.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I thought the SoB scaling was fine or is it not according to the pros here?

[Fredzilla]

It's fine when you're at the end of the xpac. If the scaling doesn't change at all, the rotation is really slow and clunky at low haste levels. A problem we want to avoid if at all possible for t17.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's fine when you're at the end of the xpac. If the scaling doesn't change at all, the rotation is really slow and clunky at low haste levels. A problem we want to avoid if at all possible for t17.

They seemed to adjust Fire Mage scaling(See Pyrotechnics or what not lols). I guess it's POSSIBLE to change it but I'd hope if it got buffed a little, the end of a tier or what not/expansion would make us.....flashy.


(Flash Ftw)

[Fredzilla]

Whatever they do, I just don't want to go back to t14 speeds.

[Swampmoose]

Swamp, don't take things so personally. It would be surprising to me if they changed the scaling of SoB because at end tier of the xpac we probably will be able to get good amounts of haste (35%+ with correctly itemized gear + enchants + gems). The worry people are expressing is opening tier. What a lot of people have gotten used to this tier is cycling through abilities very quickly with a low gcd and it is an engaging play style. Whether damage is tuned correctly or not, I agree with you and Dakeshi, we just have to wait and see. There isn't anything we can pull from the data available (besides Celestalon's comments in the interviews that we are under tuned), that can prove or disprove this.

I'm not saying they can't change the scaling of SoB, just that they haven't used SoB as a tuning mechanic so far. When we've been tuned this xpac it has been through SoL. That is an easier knob to turn and effect output than SoB is. Adjusting SoB mid xpac is a lot more invasive in the sense that it affects the gear you have equipped at the time, so if you adjust it from a 1:1 ratio at the start, then it is hard to adjust it back mid xpac. And it has less precision than a SoL tune as well.

Fair enough and apologies if I sound aggressive. I'm just an angry human, nothing personal. Back to lurking, at least until I do some more homework. Clearly too rusty to talk this stuff anyways (Seal of Blood lewl). All I asked Captain Banpants was why Paladin's alone needed base haste, and look what I've gone and done!

[Maegor]

Fair enough and apologies if I sound aggressive. I'm just an angry human, nothing personal. Back to lurking, at least until I do some more homework. Clearly too rusty to talk this stuff anyways (Seal of Blood lewl). All I asked Captain Banpants was why Paladin's alone needed base haste, and look what I've gone and done!

As Fred said above you, most of us don't want to go back to a slow crawl with the rotation, even though we all know it will happen in early tier and the reason is SoB. We've gotten used to this pace, and we don't want to go back to CS->pick your nose->J. Fun while competitive is ideal. But we all know that if you aren't competitive it takes some of the fun out of it (feeling like you don't contribute). So to me anyway 1)competitive damage, 2)usable utility (even though I wish we didn't even have FoL), and 3)fast paced gameplay are how I'd rank my wishlist.

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They seemed to adjust Fire Mage scaling(See Pyrotechnics or what not lols). I guess it's POSSIBLE to change it but I'd hope if it got buffed a little, the end of a tier or what not/expansion would make us.....flashy.


(Flash Ftw)

With increasing the crit chance with each fireball that didn't previously crit? How's that bonus roll protection working out for you? Similar model.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

All I asked Captain Banpants was why Paladin's alone needed base haste, and look what I've gone and done!

If you've touched fire mage or dps warriors at very low gear levels you know exactly why ret (and possibly other specs) need a flat amount of haste (or other stats) to work with the current spec design. It's a fact that ret without haste is very slow and clunky to play with lots of time spent waiting for globals to reset or abilities to come off cooldown, same as fire mages having to pray for crits, or warriors being rage starved. There's loads of similar issues with class designs which WILL be affected by the removal of reforging and overload of gems, still have to wait and see (obviously) if they rebalance haste required per % so we can reach the levels of haste we need to be "fun" to play but seeing the tweets isn't making me overly confident that things will be done to help us.

[Maegor]

ret without haste is very slow and clunky to play with lots of time spent waiting for globals to reset or abilities to come off cooldown

Am I wrong in thinking that our current 4p hides a lot of the open globals? If we didn't have the 4p, we'd have far more open globals, however, the difference is that at haste levels we could achieve now, an open global wouldn't feel gut-wrenching like it did pre 5.4.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

As Fred said above you, most of us don't want to go back to a slow crawl with the rotation, even though we all know it will happen in early tier and the reason is SoB. We've gotten used to this pace, and we don't want to go back to CS->pick your nose->J. Fun while competitive is ideal. But we all know that if you aren't competitive it takes some of the fun out of it (feeling like you don't contribute). So to me anyway 1)competitive damage, 2)usable utility (even though I wish we didn't even have FoL), and 3)fast paced gameplay are how I'd rank my wishlist.

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With increasing the crit chance with each fireball that didn't previously crit? How's that bonus roll protection working out for you? Similar model.

We don't actually know the % of Bonus Roll(That I'm aware of) For Fire 25% is known(That's base and barring Crit on mage already)

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Am I wrong in thinking that our current 4p hides a lot of the open globals? If we didn't have the 4p, we'd have far more open globals, however, the difference is that at haste levels we could achieve now, an open global wouldn't feel gut-wrenching like it did pre 5.4.

our 4 set fills whatever globals you have empty (if any), this would also happen with 50% haste. Simple fact that with Inq being removed that's 1 less GCD we're pushed into using so you'll have even less to fill your things with, if we don't get one more ability to use on a 10-ish sec cd we're gonna be back where we were in cata.

[barial]

With no snapshotting, trinkets with a 10 second buff duration (like evil eye of galakras) and spells such as execution sentence which takes 10 seconds to proc it's biggest hit... to get effective use of ES you'd have to just guess and pop it before the trinket activates. This class is already easy as shit, and now we're lowering the skill cap even more. Time to go warlock

edit: also lol @ the holy damage TV which does 40% less damage than regular TV, but we have no Inq so it probably hits for less.

[Weightlifter]

What reasons will there be to invite ret pallys at all when devo aura is going to be holy only and DKs will provide mastery buff?