1. #3561
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    rofl drop the crap. most top guilds have big parts of their rosters swapping mains between tiers all the time. if ret was an option for them then players at that level would have no issues whatsoever to master the spec if needed.
    You would be surprised.

  2. #3562
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    rofl drop the crap. most top guilds have big parts of their rosters swapping mains between tiers all the time. if ret was an option for them then players at that level would have no issues whatsoever to master the spec if needed.
    ret hasn't really competed on raid spots with other melee since icc when we were "broken", simple fact is that except on a few bosses ret hasn't been amazing on any heroic fights since ever and if you want a melee to just stay at boss there's other melee specs (or ranged) that has outperformed ret. That's why I'm genuinly looking forward to next tier, ret is looking to be 2nd best melee and strong on overall dps aswell. Ofc it depends a lot on the fight types that comes in SoO but I'm hopeful we won't get more BS fights like council or horridon...

    and I agree with you, ret hasn't been a solid option for most top guilds. Partially because they already have 2-3 paladins to cover whatever utility needed from paladin class and partially because other specs have outdone ret on what ret is supposed to be good at.

    We're still very strong on burst with GoaK, 5.4 and GoaK becomes 3min without the sick trinket. By the looks of it ret might get AV and GoaK cd reduced by the trinket as well as AM, bubble, DP and maybe ES/Prism/LH, all that adds up and should make us really strong next tier and I wouldn't be surprised at all if some top guilds decided to let their ex-rets go back to the spec if the wanted to.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2013-07-02 at 12:27 PM.
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  3. #3563
    spine heroic was really good for rets.

    the biggest problem in 10 man in MoP for rets has IMO not been that other melees have been better. prot palas needing the exact same gear pieces (except weapon) and holy palas having their unique plate/int pieces have made those two specs a must for any serious guild. also melees overall have a hard time to compete which leaves only one melee spot left, where ret just hasn't been the top choice since as far as I can remember playing this game on a serious level. 25 man becomes a completely different subject because you can work around flaws of certain specs by assigning people to different tasks with a lot more wiggle room when it comes to damage distribution.

    I agree t16 looks promising. I'm trying to gear up my ret again (even if it will keep being an alt) because I'm having a lot of fun playing a ret again and it feels each patch this expansion have given us some big improvements making rets more viable in raids.

  4. #3564
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    spine heroic was really good for rets.

    I agree t16 looks promising. I'm trying to gear up my ret again (even if it will keep being an alt) because I'm having a lot of fun playing a ret again and it feels each patch this expansion have given us some big improvements making rets more viable in raids.
    Well, I wouldn't say spine was "good" for rets but rather rets were good for spine. All we were there for was to pop cds and turret the backplate thingies with arc mages, we were important enough yes but the fight was rly bad overall :P
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  5. #3565
    The only time I really have any big issues with keeping up with my guild's DPS is if we get into fights that go from single target to an extended AoE phase (more than DS-HPG-DS) and then back to single target. Usually, if I'm in the top 3 in DPS before that I drop down to 8-10 afterwards the AoE part. For example, on Twin Consorts when we get all the lurkers out I'm usually #1 or at least top 3 on the meter. After the little AoE burst phase (if they aren't all gripped right together, DKs have been iffy on getting them all stacked) the Warlocks, Warriors and Monks usually bypass me pretty easily. If they can grip them and I can get my 2x DS off in the 3 globals I can do a decent amount of damage and stay in the top 5-6. That's the only real issue I have with Rets in this tier. I'm still pretty competitive with our other melee DPS and they all have heroic 1-handers. Our guild hasn't dropped 1 Heroic 2-handed weapon yet. The only time I get sat for another melee is if it's a fight with large amounts of physical damage and then I get subbed for some Warriors.

    I'm sure during Heroic Lei Shen, which we started this week, I will have similar issues. I will push good single target and then fall behind during the AoE parts. They just don't get clumped up enough.

    On a side note, any tips / tricks, etc that will be useful for Heroic Lei Shen? I already assumed Sacred Shield and Speed of Light will be pretty useful.

  6. #3566
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanyn View Post
    The only time I really have any big issues with keeping up with my guild's DPS is if we get into fights that go from single target to an extended AoE phase (more than DS-HPG-DS) and then back to single target. Usually, if I'm in the top 3 in DPS before that I drop down to 8-10 afterwards the AoE part. For example, on Twin Consorts when we get all the lurkers out I'm usually #1 or at least top 3 on the meter. After the little AoE burst phase (if they aren't all gripped right together, DKs have been iffy on getting them all stacked) the Warlocks, Warriors and Monks usually bypass me pretty easily. If they can grip them and I can get my 2x DS off in the 3 globals I can do a decent amount of damage and stay in the top 5-6. That's the only real issue I have with Rets in this tier. I'm still pretty competitive with our other melee DPS and they all have heroic 1-handers. Our guild hasn't dropped 1 Heroic 2-handed weapon yet. The only time I get sat for another melee is if it's a fight with large amounts of physical damage and then I get subbed for some Warriors.

    I'm sure during Heroic Lei Shen, which we started this week, I will have similar issues. I will push good single target and then fall behind during the AoE parts. They just don't get clumped up enough.

    On a side note, any tips / tricks, etc that will be useful for Heroic Lei Shen? I already assumed Sacred Shield and Speed of Light will be pretty useful.
    Things we should push for that are very reasonable: GCD reduction via haste for Sacred Shield, Execution Sentence and Light's Hammer; and extending our AOE from 8 yards to 10 yards.

  7. #3567
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    The reason you see so few rets used in top world guilds is because there are only a handful of top world rets that even play the game. Most of which have no desire to do launch week nolife raiding a huge amount with mandatory alts/multi raid farm Infact you just got the opinion from myself and Solsa arguably 2 of the best players in the spec. If you don't like the answer then you are just fishing for the answer you want to hear.

    Why is this even a question for your guild. Bairdy is dominating the other melee. Quick better bench ret guilds with shit rets are saying the class sucks.
    Dominating lol. We see our ret rank and finish in the lower middle half of the raid lol. Ya that's domination. That, if anything shows how weak ret is when they can rank against other ret's and finish in the lower middle half of a raid against some range alts. I came to this thread to get a different view's and opinions. You reaction was to assume things and rage, this happens every tier for most of the players I know. Gear up range alts for the melee and then take some times off before the next patch, is this why you rage?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Well, I wouldn't say spine was "good" for rets but rather rets were good for spine. All we were there for was to pop cds and turret the backplate thingies with arc mages, we were important enough yes but the fight was rly bad overall :P
    Ya stacking rogues and arcane mages was the key to that fight at the beginning.
    Last edited by isadorr; 2013-07-02 at 06:40 PM.

  8. #3568
    Not sure what you're talking about, I was watching ER during your Ra-Den attempts and Bairdy was stomping most of you.

  9. #3569
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    The reason you see so few rets used in top world guilds is because there are only a handful of top world rets that even play the game. Most of which have no desire to do launch week nolife raiding a huge amount with mandatory alts/multi raid farm Infact you just got the opinion from myself and Solsa arguably 2 of the best players in the spec. If you don't like the answer then you are just fishing for the answer you want to hear.

    Why is this even a question for your guild. Bairdy is dominating the other melee. Quick better bench ret guilds with shit rets are saying the class sucks.
    Rofl, no Anaxie, just no. The only reason you ever bring a ret is if you need more BoPs and/or Devo aura than what a pally tank and Holy pally can provide. Pretty sure the only time we brought a ret to raid in Exodus was for DA, before the nerf to interrupting jolt, and IQ just because we needed melee. Pretty sure you can say the same thing about BL, when they tried to stack pallys on DA when the jolt dmg was nuts and you needed a devo and other cd every 20 sec. Rets do not bring competitive dps. Any raid leader who had a choice would sit their rets for better dmg if they dont absolutely need a devo aura or Bop.

  10. #3570
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    It's supposedly a ton extra on pull dps but I'm doing top 5 ranks easily with spark. Still went towards primo but the difference should be so bad you can't still hit 220K+ Dps.
    Hi, Anaxie. Could you link me to your logs where you ranked in the top 5 this tier? I just want to compare buff uptimes, CD usage, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    The reason you see so few rets used in top world guilds is because there are only a handful of top world rets that even play the game. Most of which have no desire to do launch week nolife raiding a huge amount with mandatory alts/multi raid farm Infact you just got the opinion from myself and Solsa arguably 2 of the best players in the spec. If you don't like the answer then you are just fishing for the answer you want to hear.

    Why is this even a question for your guild. Bairdy is dominating the other melee. Quick better bench ret guilds with shit rets are saying the class sucks.
    This is so wrong on so many levels it hurts my brain. The reason you don't see many Ret paladins in top guilds is 100% because the class is shit. The type of players who go to these guilds are usually quite good at the game and why would you waste your time/skill playing a terrible class? When you factor in that these type of players want to get top 10 world or better at the end of each tier, it's amazing we see any rets in these guilds. Ret is so easy to play that your answer of there being no top ret paladins is just simply false. If Ret paladins become good enough to bring during cutting edge progression, people in these guilds will play it and will most likely become some of the best ret paladins in the world because being the best at your class is one of the minimum requirements for being in a top guild.

  11. #3571
    Every single patch Ret has seen some type of buff, and as it stands right now Ret is as strong as any other melee. The only exception would be Windwalker monks in high end gear, and that's less Ret being a 'weak' spec and more (ALOT more) heavy abuse of Rune of Reorigination by the Monk. I raid in a semi-hardcore guild (only 3 day/week) and I find myself being competitive among all the dps on our roster. For us mere mortals, what Blood Legion and Exodus did with their Rets during progression is irrelevant and a non-factor completely.
    Last edited by Mcbenchpress; 2013-07-02 at 09:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    If someone told me how to play I'd show them a simulation dps graph made out of dick pics.

  12. #3572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charleslol View Post
    If Ret paladins become good enough to bring during cutting edge progression, people in these guilds will play it and will most likely become some of the best ret paladins in the world because being the best at your class is one of the minimum requirements for being in a top guild.
    Not to be contrary, but this simply isn't the case. They expect you to know your class inside out, but so does any heroic guild. The main things a top guild requires is that you can keep up the punishing raid schedule long after the point at which your eyes are bleeding and maintain a positive attitude whilst doing this. Inevitably core raiders of such guilds will become top players through constant practise and gear, but the top players of each class/spec are not necessarily in the top guilds - some people like it where they are and lack either the time or inclination to move up.

    As to the main point again, however. I think much of the disagreement stems from context. It is possible that a world first guild has had and may continue to have no serious use for a retribution paladin during this expansion (I don't know, that's nothing like my sphere of experience). However, when you drop to the tier below that, then it's a different matter. There are guilds who still managed to get 13/13 before 5.3 who took retribution paladins that regularly beat most other dps on their first kills as well as later farm. Even these guilds are the tip of the raiding iceberg; the further you go down the more ridiculous it is to discount a class/spec just because the very top guilds do. If you have a player of any spec who can outdamage others in the raid, why would you not take them?
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  13. #3573
    Quote Originally Posted by Thete View Post
    Not to be contrary, but this simply isn't the case. They expect you to know your class inside out, but so does any heroic guild. The main things a top guild requires is that you can keep up the punishing raid schedule long after the point at which your eyes are bleeding and maintain a positive attitude whilst doing this. Inevitably core raiders of such guilds will become top players through constant practise and gear, but the top players of each class/spec are not necessarily in the top guilds - some people like it where they are and lack either the time or inclination to move up.

    As to the main point again, however. I think much of the disagreement stems from context. It is possible that a world first guild has had and may continue to have no serious use for a retribution paladin during this expansion (I don't know, that's nothing like my sphere of experience). However, when you drop to the tier below that, then it's a different matter. There are guilds who still managed to get 13/13 before 5.3 who took retribution paladins that regularly beat most other dps on their first kills as well as later farm. Even these guilds are the tip of the raiding iceberg; the further you go down the more ridiculous it is to discount a class/spec just because the very top guilds do. If you have a player of any spec who can outdamage others in the raid, why would you not take them?
    I agree. My point is that if Retribution becomes the dominant melee class and you want to bring 2-3 for each boss during hardcore progression, these guilds will not have trouble having players of other melee classes reroll and play Retribution at the highest level. Until that is the case, this is why you do not see many "top" Ret Paladins. Of course there are many great Retribution Paladins in other guilds, but I believe we were only talking about the very top end of guilds, such as top 10 world, etc.

  14. #3574
    So I got the cloak and it increased the value of haste dramatically for me. Went from ~3.26 to ~3.96. That strength helps a lot.

  15. #3575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    So I got the cloak and it increased the value of haste dramatically for me. Went from ~3.26 to ~3.96. That strength helps a lot.
    Lucky... I was at 10/12 after last week and only got the one guaranteed for this week... Going to take 9 weeks for me to get the cloak.
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  16. #3576
    The RNG on the runestones is awful. I was one of the first in the guild to get the meta and i'll be one of the last to get the cloak. I wouldn't care so much but its worth about 12k dps and a huge upgrade.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    If someone told me how to play I'd show them a simulation dps graph made out of dick pics.

  17. #3577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charleslol View Post
    I agree. My point is that if Retribution becomes the dominant melee class and you want to bring 2-3 for each boss during hardcore progression, these guilds will not have trouble having players of other melee classes reroll and play Retribution at the highest level. Until that is the case, this is why you do not see many "top" Ret Paladins. Of course there are many great Retribution Paladins in other guilds, but I believe we were only talking about the very top end of guilds, such as top 10 world, etc.
    I agree, the "skill" of playing this game isn't about how much top ranks you get. Every class/spec is easy to play and only require effort to get experienced in it, "bring the player not the class" is kinda playing into this. Top guilds have what? 30-40 people on roster and each of those people probablly have experience in 3-4 classes with all the specs or at least general understandment of the spec so a switch isn't complicated to go through with for them, IF and only IF top guilds want a spec they have world class RAIDERS to put on that class/spec.

    This isn't to insult the top rets (whichever list you deem you "top" of) but you/we are playing a spec which is severely under represented at the top level of this game, chance is that there's at least 20 people who can play ret at the same level as you or even better.

    and can we put the debate about "skill" to rest? Numbers on meter is NOT = skill.
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  18. #3578
    Quote Originally Posted by Charleslol View Post
    Hi, Anaxie. Could you link me to your logs where you ranked in the top 5 this tier? I just want to compare buff uptimes, CD usage, etc.
    I'd also like to see these logs, for science of course

  19. #3579
    you guys. Anybody test trinkets on ptr yet to see how the CD reduction trinket works formula wise?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    I agree, the "skill" of playing this game isn't about how much top ranks you get. Every class/spec is easy to play and only require effort to get experienced in it, "bring the player not the class" is kinda playing into this. Top guilds have what? 30-40 people on roster and each of those people probablly have experience in 3-4 classes with all the specs or at least general understandment of the spec so a switch isn't complicated to go through with for them, IF and only IF top guilds want a spec they have world class RAIDERS to put on that class/spec.

    This isn't to insult the top rets (whichever list you deem you "top" of) but you/we are playing a spec which is severely under represented at the top level of this game, chance is that there's at least 20 people who can play ret at the same level as you or even better.

    and can we put the debate about "skill" to rest? Numbers on meter is NOT = skill.
    Said far more eloquently then I could. Thank you for this

  20. #3580
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    you guys. Anybody test trinkets on ptr yet to see how the CD reduction trinket works formula wise?
    I would but I can't find them.. they're not on Flaskataur, Esq. yet, as far as I can tell.

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