Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Bonkura]

I'm too lazy to check as compared to every spec, and in general sub is the lowest of all rogue specs, but doing a quick raidbots check, in 25n and 25h, sub rogues are head of ret on one fight, heroic Iron Juggernaut, and it's by 20k. If you're 80k behind a sub rogue, you're doing something wrong.

Eh? Sub is the best Rogue spec single target and one of the strongest overall atm.

[Deleted]

If the raid has a Prot or Holy Paladin, there is no need to bring a Ret. We perform fine, we have a lot of AoE on some fights and are able to meterpad pretty well. But it's bring the player not the class currently making Rets useful. Atleast we're one of the bottom single target DPS'ers, but it isn't by a landslide. A small buff to single target damage could be good, and perhaps a less random aoe rotation

[Deleted]

Eh? Sub is the best Rogue spec single target and one of the strongest overall atm.

Not sure where that comes from as logs say otherwise. Rather worrying that it is outperforming ret on Iron Juggernaut, though that may change with greater sample sizes. However, subtlety is most definitely rooted at the bottom of the rogues specs on all fights for which there is enough live data.

[Bonkura]

Not sure where that comes from as logs say otherwise. Rather worrying that it is outperforming ret on Iron Juggernaut, though that may change with greater sample sizes. However, subtlety is most definitely rooted at the bottom of the rogues specs on all fights for which there is enough live data.

The spec historically is underrepresented due to its complex rotation. I don't have a lvl 90 rogue atm so I'm not sure about what has changed but it was buffed this patch. I think you need a few items like set bonuses/trinkets for it to pull ahead. However in full BiS Combat seems to be stronger. But most heroic progressing Rogues should be playing Sub as the single target spec and Combat for cleaving/AoE.

[Deleted]

In dream land, they'd just bake the T15 4P into the spec as a baseline passive.

this is what they should have done, now with the anti-melee mechanics in PvE there's no point to have a ret in a serious guild unless you don't have a prot+holy for the double devo aura (unless the other DPS are playing below their potential). our work is done better by a warrior or a rogue.

the only reason I'm currently playing a ret is because it's my favourite character, and I enjoy doing it better than the OP classes when I'm raiding with pickups. altough this isn't new to us.

[Deleted]

this is what they should have done, now with the anti-melee mechanics in PvE there's no point to have a ret in a serious guild unless you don't have a prot+holy for the double devo aura (unless the other DPS are playing below their potential). our work is done better by a warrior or a rogue.

the only reason I'm currently playing a ret is because it's my favourite character, and I enjoy doing it better than the OP classes when I'm raiding with pickups. altough this isn't new to us.

I know it's always nice and easy to feel sorry for yourself and just enjoy a good circlejerk of shitting on your class, but to people looking further than their own nose it should be quite clear that ret is in a better place than it has been for a looong time.

We'll be finishing this tier in a world top 10 place, having run double rets and four paladins total for most of the 'difficult' bosses. And neither of us have had to be carried by other dps. Maybe we can't be considered a serious guild though, seeing as we aren't top three...

[Fredzilla]

I know it's always nice and easy to feel sorry for yourself and just enjoy a good circlejerk of shitting on your class, but to people looking further than their own nose it should be quite clear that ret is in a better place than it has been for a looong time.

We'll be finishing this tier in a world top 10 place, having run double rets and four paladins total for most of the 'difficult' bosses. And neither of us have had to be carried by other dps. Maybe we can't be considered a serious guild though, seeing as we aren't top three...

While I'm not disagreeing with you and saying we're bad in any way, it's not hard to be better than what we were before =P

[Deleted]

This 4set! Had so much fun with the bats on Thok 25H the other night
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...757&target=114

[Deleted]

I know it's always nice and easy to feel sorry for yourself and just enjoy a good circlejerk of shitting on your class, but to people looking further than their own nose it should be quite clear that ret is in a better place than it has been for a looong time.

that's obvious. for example the class in 5.0 was absolutely broken, now we are absolutely better.

[Deleted]

I know it's always nice and easy to feel sorry for yourself and just enjoy a good circlejerk of shitting on your class, but to people looking further than their own nose it should be quite clear that ret is in a better place than it has been for a looong time.

We'll be finishing this tier in a world top 10 place, having run double rets and four paladins total for most of the 'difficult' bosses. And neither of us have had to be carried by other dps. Maybe we can't be considered a serious guild though, seeing as we aren't top three...

Pretty spot on. Rets might be easily replaced dps wise, but we are still very viable. Maybe not for worlds first, but 14/14 HC within a few weeks is definetly doable without dragging your guild down. Bring the player not the class.

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That's cute
http://i.imgur.com/FAAkRYn.png

Active time: 32s :P ?

[Deleted]

We need a name for ret paladins with 4p. How about retrifuge? As in centrifuge.

[Johnmatrix]

Not sure where that comes from as logs say otherwise. Rather worrying that it is outperforming ret on Iron Juggernaut, though that may change with greater sample sizes. However, subtlety is most definitely rooted at the bottom of the rogues specs on all fights for which there is enough live data.

This discussion is a bit off topic to be continued but sub rogue is the best rogue spec in single target encounters. It's the hardest rogue spec to play because the rotation is more unforgiving compared to the other 2 specs and it requires you to constantly be behind your target for maximum dps. Most people don't play it because of these 2 reasons but those who know how to do it deal very good dps with it.

[Killmour]

That's cute
http://i.imgur.com/FAAkRYn.png

Every time I get good RNG on the bats someone does something stupid and we wipe.


Ret is in a great spot guys, stop whining, seriously. Our damage is fine, and our utility is very good, especially for progression this tier. BoPs/sacs/AM/ our burst damage is great for things like the conveyor on Blackfuse. The list can go on and on. Not to mention once you get a decent CDR trinket you are basicly unkillable melee dps. DP on a 20 second CD, even bubble on a 100 second CD is very very strong on fights.


Don't have tunnel vision, your job in a raid isn't just to clobber the boss as hard as possible. Utility goes a long way towards viability.

[Aceshigh]

When people start crying about ret in the state it is in now it takes away legitimacy from arguments when ret is in a bad spot. It's kinda sad and really frustrating to see people complaining about the spec so much when we're actually in a pretty decent spot. Using the argument "we're not used in world first kills" is a pretty sorry one. Lots of SPECS don't get used in world first kills but as others have pointed out they are being used as high as top 5-10 kills. Complaining about the state that ret is in right now is completely laughable and it's not really a mystery whey ret gets ignored when legitimate issues come up until Theck blogs about them, people are seriously just wanting to be first on the meters while having great utility and a strong ass raid cooldown.

If you want a class that is always going to be on the top of the DPS charts re-roll so you can have that, just don't be shocked if you need to give up some utility and a raid CD as well as a class you love to do it. Stop coming in here complaining about what a sorry state Ret is in and taking away any legitimacy that we have moving forward and reading this thread has just become tiring.

[anaxie]

Pretty much whats been pointed out. Too many whiners bitching. Huntingbear I love ya but I've called you on your bullshit hundreds of times. Sounds to me like your guild is making YOU feel less desired. My friend thats when you say "Nice raiding with you guys, going to someone who actually wnats a ret". It's either that problem or it's you.

Also Feliclandelo, you are really bringing the vibe in here down man. Do you have anything more to say then crying like a tool about a spec being valid for progression without "bringing down the guild" like the spec is so bad? The spec is fucking amazing! are you kidding? I mean. With this PoV I would hope you are more progressed then Scrubusters, WWA, Vigil, or even smaller guilds like the one I'm in.

In world first yogg people stacked warlocks, In Nef "supposedly" feral druids were stacked. Here is the biggest problem I have in all those situations were all other classes uselsss? World first doesn't mean one grain of salt for a specs being valid. I know 3 rets personally who are Indispensable to the success of their raid team. It's very unfortunate no player of that skill level has ever crossed paths with you.

If you don't like the way I'm approaching. Answer why I'm wrong.

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When people start crying about ret in the state it is in now it takes away legitimacy from arguments when ret is in a bad spot. It's kinda sad and really frustrating to see people complaining about the spec so much when we're actually in a pretty decent spot. Using the argument "we're not used in world first kills" is a pretty sorry one. Lots of SPECS don't get used in world first kills but as others have pointed out they are being used as high as top 5-10 kills. Complaining about the state that ret is in right now is completely laughable and it's not really a mystery whey ret gets ignored when legitimate issues come up until Theck blogs about them, people are seriously just wanting to be first on the meters while having great utility and a strong ass raid cooldown.

If you want a class that is always going to be on the top of the DPS charts re-roll so you can have that, just don't be shocked if you need to give up some utility and a raid CD as well as a class you love to do it. Stop coming in here complaining about what a sorry state Ret is in and taking away any legitimacy that we have moving forward and reading this thread has just become tiring.

^^^^ This 6.0 beta is soon. Shut the fuck up so our concerns are heard then if they pull some stupid shit <like reduce SoL to 10% like in MoP beta> seriously wtf?

Something like that or being the only class to go live without a mastery <T14 ret> are actual concerns. Anything else is just brushing things off on inept play.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Not sure where that comes from as logs say otherwise. Rather worrying that it is outperforming ret on Iron Juggernaut, though that may change with greater sample sizes. However, subtlety is most definitely rooted at the bottom of the rogues specs on all fights for which there is enough live data.

our sub rogue (with 1 hc dagger and 1 normal dagger from SoO) bursts 1.4m dps for 40sec (hero at pull). I don't have a HC wep yet but even with one it's impossible to compete with the numbers a sub rogue can put out atm.

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Every time I get good RNG on the bats someone does something stupid and we wipe.


Ret is in a great spot guys, stop whining, seriously. Our damage is fine, and our utility is very good, especially for progression this tier. BoPs/sacs/AM/ our burst damage is great for things like the conveyor on Blackfuse. The list can go on and on. Not to mention once you get a decent CDR trinket you are basicly unkillable melee dps. DP on a 20 second CD, even bubble on a 100 second CD is very very strong on fights.


Don't have tunnel vision, your job in a raid isn't just to clobber the boss as hard as possible. Utility goes a long way towards viability.

I agree that ret is one of the most survivable specs atm with cd reduc trinket, but our utility can be covered by 2 other specs (holy got a bit shafted now so rare to have more than 2 holydins, we have 1, zero protadins). Regardless, yes our utility is insanely strong and is extremely potent on some fights. But on fights where it's not needed and you need higher dps ret (being melee) is among the first specs to be replaced.

And people who know me (or even bothers to check my logs or see stream) knows that I don't give two shits about dps (obviously I strive to do the best I can) if we're not in risk of wiping to enrage. Enrage is the last thing that can wipe you so it should be your last worry, anyways... ret single target isn't on par with most specs, now some of the top end specs are "OP" and in need of a nerf and that's gonna balance out some of the difference. Question in my mind is: does blizzard have balls enough to put down the top specs and make them comparable to other single target specs.

Also, everyone can spec DP and use 4set and get huge dps numbers. That's not the topic I'm on about... single target guys... single target.

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Pretty much whats been pointed out. Too many whiners bitching. Huntingbear I love ya but I've called you on your bullshit hundreds of times. Sounds to me like your guild is making YOU feel less desired. My friend thats when you say "Nice raiding with you guys, going to someone who actually wnats a ret". It's either that problem or it's you.

6.0 beta is soon. Shut the fuck up so our concerns are heard then if they pull some stupid shit <like reduce SoL to 10% like in MoP beta> seriously wtf?

Something like that or being the only class to go live without a mastery <T14 ret> are actual concerns. Anything else is just brushing things off on inept play.

No I'm constantly used for progress (even got prioritized for tier pieces) been in the guild for 1.5years +, I never "care" about being top (or bottom for that matter) as long as we kill shit. I actually use my utility like sacs and whatnot, GM/raidleader knows the value of having rets but he also knows that you can easily gain a lot from swapping a ret for a lock (example). Problem with ret isn't survivability/utility/or now with 4set and DP- aoe capability, it's straight on single target...

You don't bring rets for dps, you bring them for their utility... that's bothered me for ages even if it's our "utility belt" that makes rets - rets. It's why I play rets tbh and it's what I strive to use properly, but when jokes like "How to play ret paladin: reroll mage/warlock" and "DPS requirement can't be high when you're meant to have ret paladins." fly around the internet it's discouraging.


Think we both said that SoL had to be buffed each raid tier when they made the SoL change before MoP... which they have so far.
But yeah unless you want to go further lets wait for end of progress and a couple weeks when people start getting close on BiS gear and then check back on how people are logging (without doing crazy cheese strats).

Anyone going to blizzcon?
*edit*
I also love you, Anaxie. (nohomo)

[anaxie]

No I'm constantly used for progress (even got prioritized for tier pieces) been in the guild for 1.5years +, I never "care" about being top (or bottom for that matter) as long as we kill shit. I actually use my utility like sacs and whatnot, GM/raidleader knows the value of having rets but he also knows that you can easily gain a lot from swapping a ret for a lock (example). Problem with ret isn't survivability/utility/or now with 4set and DP- aoe capability, it's straight on single target...

You don't bring rets for dps, you bring them for their utility... that's bothered me for ages even if it's our "utility belt" that makes rets - rets. It's why I play rets tbh and it's what I strive to use properly, but when jokes like "How to play ret paladin: reroll mage/warlock" and "DPS requirement can't be high when you're meant to have ret paladins." fly around the internet it's discouraging.


Think we both said that SoL had to be buffed each raid tier when they made the SoL change before MoP... which they have so far.
But yeah unless you want to go further lets wait for end of progress and a couple weeks when people start getting close on BiS gear and then check back on how people are logging (without doing crazy cheese strats).

Anyone going to blizzcon?
*edit*
I also love you, Anaxie. (nohomo)

This is the emotions I've been going through for the last 2 years mostly and even moreso the last few months. Don't agree with rest though I feel single target <and now aoe> is a rets niche. Only thing that hurts us is multidotters who dot shit for procs that you aren't even trying to kill. That or if grips are mandatory for kill. Mother fucking grips.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

This is the emotions I've been going through for the last 2 years mostly and even moreso the last few months. Don't agree with rest though I feel single target <and now aoe> is a rets niche. Only thing that hurts us is multidotters who dot shit for procs that you aren't even trying to kill. That or if grips are mandatory for kill. Mother fucking grips.

Not to mention an overload of warlocks so you have portals for your entire fucking raid..

[anaxie]

Not to mention an overload of warlocks so you have portals for your entire fucking raid..

3 isn't really overload.

[Deleted]

The problem with you Anaxie is that you refuse any truth other than your own, and your ego is way too big to accept other opinions. I don't really know what kind of player you are, but I am certain you are one of the better ones - this doesn't mean we both can't be here just because I don't suck up. You can also namedrop all you want. I don't really care, I've been there myself. I tried raiding in a top25 guild back in Vanilla and a top5 guild in WotLK. I don't want to do that anymore. I am a good player, and regardless of what spec, I always perform top notch. I do however make mistakes like anyone else, and I don't mind being wrong.

Fyi, the only one crying about anything is you. I said I feel Rets are currently a "bring the player, not the class", and looking at most logs, this seems to be the reason. My arguement is pretty straight forward: Most of our AoE damage is random and uncontrolled, it is mainly meterpadding and our single target dps is average (which is fine by me). Furthermore all of our toolset can be replace by a Holy or Protection Paladin. Now please understand this is not me asking for buffs, or saying we aren't viable, but I wouldn't take Ret over a Rogue, if I had the option to bring a Prot. This was my arguement as to why we might not be "good" enough for worlds first, but definetly for top10-20 without dragging the raid down (as I already said).

Stop twisting my words. Peace.

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Oh, and let me make one thing clear. I am in general talking about 25man. In 10man I think Rets can be fucking amazing, since I really feel there is no point to bring a Holy Paladin. My arguement here would be the exact opposite, that a Ret could easily fulfill the same raid cds that a Holy could, and they have strong and fast offheals with SH, not to mention having extremly good survivability + plate with CDR. This also means you can bring 2-3 top notch healers, knowing you have those bops/sacs/am