Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Fredzilla]

Because flasks, prepot and eating foods don't carry the risk of someone being trigger happy an pulling early. On progress you really don't want to be "that guy"

I got screwed over doing fights with my prot t11 on more than once. Not something I'd necessarily care to experience again.

[anaxie]

Smiitus

Can you be my alliance paladins BFF

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Because flasks, prepot and eating foods don't carry the risk of someone being trigger happy an pulling early. On progress you really don't want to be "that guy"

The amount of pulls we had to abort in Cataclysm because our mage fluffed his gear swap before the pull was so stupid :/

[Deleted]

Hello,
please help me to decide what should i use (Malevolt at armory EU Burning Legion).
Currently i am using heroic/warforged items instead 4 pieces of T16 set.

On my bank i have all 5 T16 pieces from normal and warforged Gar'tok, Strength of the Faithful.
Wonder if i should stick to current gear or change it to 4 set bonus at cost of str/haste/mastery.

If 4 set bonus - whitch parts i have to wear (got HC haste/mastery head and gloves and warforged pants from Garosh)?

[DingDongKing]

4 Piece + Legplates of Unthinking Strife. You want to be getting every little trickle of haste/mastery available. The critical strike on the Legplates is more painful than the Hit on the Shoulders/Gauntlets. You still get Hit which means you're able to reforge out of it on other pieces.

Could you post your armory?

[Bonkura]

Because flasks, prepot and eating foods don't carry the risk of someone being trigger happy an pulling early. On progress you really don't want to be "that guy"

You've must experienced a lot of ninja pulls. Personally I remember only one time it has happened to me since Cata. Might be selective memory but whatever, if people pull too early you're never at fault for not being ready.

[Deleted]

4 Piece + Legplates of Unthinking Strife. You want to be getting every little trickle of haste/mastery available. The critical strike on the Legplates is more painful than the Hit on the Shoulders/Gauntlets. You still get Hit which means you're able to reforge out of it on other pieces.

Could you post your armory?

Cant paste link since i have to small ammount of posts- just type in EU wow armory Malevolt .
How about weapon - should i stick to warforged Greatsword of Pride's Fal (haste+crit) or use warforged Gar'tok, Strength of the Faithful (exp+mastery +1% exp from racial)?

[Krekko]

You've must experienced a lot of ninja pulls. Personally I remember only one time it has happened to me since Cata. Might be selective memory but whatever, if people pull too early you're never at fault for not being ready.

Famous last words.

[Deleted]

Hello,
please help me to decide what should i use (Malevolt at armory EU Burning Legion).
Currently i am using heroic/warforged items instead 4 pieces of T16 set.

On my bank i have all 5 T16 pieces from normal and warforged Gar'tok, Strength of the Faithful.
Wonder if i should stick to current gear or change it to 4 set bonus at cost of str/haste/mastery.

If 4 set bonus - whitch parts i have to wear (got HC haste/mastery head and gloves and warforged pants from Garosh)?

You have 5 normal mode set items, the HC head from Galakras, HC gloves from Immerseus and normal warforged pants from Garrosh? I would say, you should wear the HC head. If you kill the Protectors on heroic, you could watch for the haste/mastery shoulders. These are very good, because your set shoulders have exp (you want to gem this instead) and mastery (that isn't haste) - every other set item has haste.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Whatever I say is assuming progression, I really can't bother with how people do farm... it's farm. I never did the T11 prot deal on progression either (unless it was a tight dps race) because I didn't want to cause a instant wipe, if you want to risk that then be my guest. If it's farm then who the hell cares?
"Oops I forgot I could want hit the boss." - Mages.
"Oh shit, my pet keybind xxxx." - Hunters.
"ARMY!!!" - DKs.
and the always reliable:
"I lag on pull so I go on 1 so I don't lose anything." - retards.
oh I forgot.
"Sorry, I mistimed my traveling speed spell." - Moonkins.

[DingDongKing]

Okay, so having had a look at your armory, here's a rough guestimate of what you could do. Keep the helm and use your 4 piece for the rest of it. Then depending on what happens there, reforge to around 17k Haste (you're over it right now) and then pour the rest into Mastery. You've reforged a fair bit OUT of Mastery for Expertise. Undo that by using the Expertise/Haste gems over Strength/Haste. Make those changes and you're pretty good to go. Keeping in mind your helm is Warforged, it'll sneak ahead of the lost Mastery from using the tier Legs.

[Deleted]

How about weapon?
Should i stick to warforged Greatsword of Pride's Fal (haste+crit) or use warforged Gar'tok, Strength of the Faithful (exp+mastery +1% exp from racial)?

[DingDongKing]

Pride's Fall. Haste > All. Though admittedly as a Dwarf you get the Mace Specialization. I'd say the first thing you should do is put in all the other pieces and I can look at your armory again. Things are gonna change a bit when you do that.

[Deleted]

Okay, so having had a look at your armory, here's a rough guestimate of what you could do. Keep the helm and use your 4 piece for the rest of it. Then depending on what happens there, reforge to around 17k Haste (you're over it right now) and then pour the rest into Mastery. You've reforged a fair bit OUT of Mastery for Expertise. Undo that by using the Expertise/Haste gems over Strength/Haste. Make those changes and you're pretty good to go. Keeping in mind your helm is Warforged, it'll sneak ahead of the lost Mastery from using the tier Legs.

Full haste (up to 50%) > 40% haste, even for 4 min fights (by 1k dps^^). Why keep poeple acting like there was a cap at 40%? This wild guess was proven wrong often enough. So, stop that - please. If you want to play with 40% haste because it's more fun for you, it's ok, but it isn't the max dps choice.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Gem and Reforge properly then see if you have enough haste (17k recommended minimum), if you can get to that haste point with the mace then do that. If you can't then stick with the sword, you should be fine on expertise from what I can see on your armory but your hit could be a bit low. Keep in mind that there's a cloak enchant for 180 hit rating if you struggle to find it.

[DingDongKing]

If that's what you like, Confuse, then that's fine. I prefer pouring the rest into Mastery. But preferences can dictate different.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Why keep poeple acting like there was a cap at 40%? This wild guess was proven wrong often enough. So, stop that - please. If you want to play with 40% haste because it's more fun for you, it's ok, but it isn't the max dps choice.

We've never said that it's a cap, we've said that's the point (if you have 4set) that haste starts to drop in value compared to mastery (and crit if you have thok's trinket). Whichever stat you decide to go after that is up to you, haste is a bit better single target, mastery is a bit better for aoe, crit is crit. We theorized way before we even got 4set on ptr that haste would get devalued (and mastery higher valued) after a certain point, that point happened to be around 17k rating. This doesn't mean that going for 50% haste is bad, or that it's wrong to go for crit after 17k or whatever. I guess Blizzard is happy that you can play with whatever you want and not be at a significant loss either way, I think it's a shame to be honest.

[Deleted]

If that's what you like, Confuse, then that's fine. I prefer pouring the rest into Mastery. But preferences can dictate different.

The problem is that you are telling someone, who doesn't know what he does, that he should go for 40% haste - without an explanation about what that means and why it could be better for him than the max dps choice. It's a choice about personal playstyle and poeple act like it's a law.

@Ripcoin: max haste (up to 50%) is the max dps choice. But at 40% haste, your rotation feels fast already and haste isn't much better than crit and mastery after that "point" (it isn't a point). This choice is a dps loss about 1k in a 4 min fight (0,2-0,3%) compared to 50% haste. That isn't much of a difference, you see, so it depends on your personal preferences.

EDIT:
@Bear:
YOU perhaps never said this. But you see what Valkyrst said? YOU ARE OVER 40% HASTE, REFORGE BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!

I guess Blizzard is happy that you can play with whatever you want and not be at a significant loss either way, I think it's a shame to be honest.

I agree. It's good that you can decide after some "point" what you like and play that without great loss. It's important to tell poeple that you can do that. "Go for 50% haste." and "go for 40% haste." are both not the complete story. You should probably add "but if you gem randomly crit, haste and mastery, you don't lose much".

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

And on the same side if there's ANY cleave to be done then mastery will be better (SoO is 90% fights with some form of cleave), not to forget that mastery during CDs is stronger than haste and that our 4set benefits greatly from mastery. Like you said, mastery, haste or crit becomes a choice. The point where it becomes a choice (based on actual numbers) is around 17k rating, that number is also set so you get as many HoW during AW as you can without going for significantly more haste (50%).
If he want's to read the math behind it the information is there, when we TC numbers and such we don't just consider single target. We consider multiple situations and come up with different numbers for different situations, it's impossible to have ONE "correct" number that's for all situations. In my opinion (and a lot of others) mastery is stronger for SoO simply because there's so many fights where there's some sort of cleave that needs to be done, if you want to be brutal on yourself and reforge/regem for every fight then please feel free to do so.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree. It's good that you can decide after some "point" what you like and play that without great loss. It's important to tell poeple that you can do that. "Go for 50% haste." and "go for 40% haste." are both not the complete story. You should probably add "but if you gem randomly crit, haste and mastery, you don't lose much".

IIRC the difference found when the crit debate raged on couple months back was (average) 5-6k dps difference between going 50% haste / 17k haste - crit / 17k haste - mastery, single target mind you. Think the dispute back then was min dps (crit being rng, mastery not) and how crit/haste affected cleave/aoe situations compared to mastery, if you're strictly talking single target then haste is slightly (very slightly) better than mastery, crit can be better if you crit with the blessing of the RNG gods.

[Deleted]

Simulation for fight against 6 targets (full result here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...-4p-plots.html). I had 44.79% haste back then. Haste drops under mastery at around +2.5k and +3k (that should be around the 50% point). Until that point, mastery and haste are equal. But crit is indeed worse than mastery and haste for aoe.

IIRC the difference found when the crit debate raged on couple months back was (average) 5-6k dps difference between going 50% haste / 17k haste - crit / 17k haste - mastery, single target mind you.

The 1k difference was in a simulation I did for a 4 min fight. These simulations you talk about were made with default 7,5 minutes, if I remember correctly.