Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I'm gonna assume that the HoP (or bubble) trick on Mar'gok is to bubble/taunt to reset stacks or something- guild didn't test this one mythic.

[trystero]

Ret might be in a bad spot, but stop making it out to be something it's not. Ret is perfectly viable and wanted in a lot of scenarios

What kind of contradictory logic is this? Ret's in a bad spot but it's perfectly viable. Uh, OK, if you want to believe this then you really have to re-evaluate whether being viable means anything. Bear doesn't say it's not viable, whatever that word means (it's beginning to get more obnoxious than 'toxic'), he's saying, seemingly without success, over and over again, that it is not as good as other classes or builds.

Why do you seem to enjoy that your class is always worse than other classes? Serious question, why doesn't this bother you? You're always coming up with excuses for why Blizzard makes Rets worse than warriors or rogues and not to mention the obvious ranged classes. Why not just say, hey I play a ret paladin, why should I have to settle with "middle of the pack" as being the holy grail of raiding? Posters like you amuse me - it's like you're so paranoid about being viewed as biased or subjective or irrational that you'll say almost anything to justify the horrible placement of your own class.

[Rathimis]

Ret ============
War ===========
Rog ==========
Monk ========

Please go by this, its not a troll of a blind troll, I promise

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

You know I'm not the first one to complain about damage numbers, I focus on killing bosses in the safest possible way- meaning helping people stay alive even if it costs me a couple gcds and "an eye" on the raid. That's one of the strengths of ret (good ones anyways) and you're right that in your "average" (god I hate that term...) guild nobody will be benched because of class balance only- there's more to it. However in a competitive guild with an overload of melee in the roster you have to fight hard for your spots- in my guild atm we have 2 x DK, Warrior, Rogue, Ret and 1 Feral and we've all been here for a long time, we're all good players (in our own ways). Fitting all of us in a 20man raid is going to be nothing short of impossible, so then you start looking at what each class can contribute with in a raid (or boss by boss) and that's when you'll see that ret is behind on what the other classes have (ferals are in same boat as rets)- even if our dps is equal to others, our fails are equal to others and so on we'll still be at risk of being benched because we can't cleave properly / AoE is too rng to rely on / no raid cd.

Then there's the whole topic of "why bring melee?"
Hunters have extremely good tools for ranged and healers with Fox, Mages have 12% healing increase for raid (or is it 10% now?) so they can both fill the "ret spot".
It's just the raid cds that skew the balance- if mages, hunters, warriors, dks and rogues had no raid cds they would be on equal grounds as the classes that doesn't have any raid cds. Stick raid CDs (proper ones) on tanks and healers- it's their job to keep the raid alive anyways, not dpsers!


I'm predicting that more or less all top 3-5 guilds will run with DKs, Warriors and Rogues for melee- not that this has anything to do with your "average" guild though. If you're stacking your raid however those are the strongest melee in terms of raid tools, fact.

[ujx]

It's more the fact that a lot of people blindly read what other players post on forums and think it's true.. Retribution is in no spot of being benched in your average guild. What happens at the top of the chain doesn't affect anyone outside of moronic guild leadership. (If this happens in your guild, you can easily prove them wrong. If not, you likely play with some of the best players of each class or you're simply not as good as you think you are)

Fun fact, nobody has proven ret is bad or will be middle of the pack yet. Alot of the sims are not accurate (Not the retribution one, but other classes/specs) and/or there's not enough information (upcoming beta changes).

Imagine the day when people stop blindly thinking everything is about dps

From every single raid I've been in post seraphim nerf, I can stand behind the middle of the pack comment. It's pretty ignorant to assume only ret has a competent simcraft maintainer. Also, the 5.4 simcraft ranking looks pretty accurate to me. So with personal experience combined with the benefit of the doubt that I give to other classes simcraft, I can assume that we indeed middle of the pack.

[Deleted]

Mar'gok: Not gonna share secret here

Awww. I think I may know though, what I don't know is if it is still the case when it goes live.

Sac is useful for every raid encounter, especially ours with reduced cooldown+talented.

It may be a case of championing the hands a bit more than in the past tbh. I remember the transition into TBC when people went from going mad if JoW or JoL (mostly the former) dropped from the boss for even a second to accepting that holy paladins couldn't maintain it easily and so were happy to do without it. This was despite the fact that they were still really powerful buffs (or debuffs, I suppose) and could be maintained by a retribution paladin in most fights. I know I had to make a lot of noise in my guilds to make people appreciate what we had then and it may be worth being proactive in WoD too.

[Prometheous]

Compared to other melee, ret is miles behind again on live. Even with potion and flask I was 5k behind our warriors.

[dragons]

The simcraftresults i saw earlier today didnt look very promising tbh.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T16M.html

[mlcfay]

Compared to other melee, ret is miles behind again on live. Even with potion and flask I was 5k behind our warriors.

I'll raid in about 01h30 ... you did all the re-gem and re-enchants to your gear? atm, I am gemming Crafty verm onyx (10 Haste + 10 Crit) on Orange slots, Rigid River's heart (20 crit) on Blues and Smooth Sun's on Yellow, avoiding mastery like a plague, sitting at 36,68% mastery (or 272 points), 40,45% haste and 41,35% crit

[Prometheous]

I'll raid in about 01h30 ... you did all the re-gem and re-enchants to your gear? atm, I am gemming Crafty verm onyx (10 Haste + 10 Crit) on Orange slots, Rigid River's heart (20 crit) on Blues and Smooth Sun's on Yellow, avoiding mastery like a plague, sitting at 36,68% mastery (or 272 points), 40,45% haste and 41,35% crit

Yep, I have the least amount of mastery my gear will allow me currently. Hopefully we'll get a bandaid though.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Akemi/advanced Here's my armory, let me know if you noticed something I didn't.

[Varabently]

Compared to other melee, ret is miles behind again on live. Even with potion and flask I was 5k behind our warriors.

Yeah, I was struggling to keep up. One thing I noticed is I will spike up higher than everyone right at the beginning during cooldowns and procs, but then after that, it's a slippery slope down to the bottom of the heap. Any movement/downtime whatsoever and the ranged just take over.

Not super optimistic, but I'm hoping the scaling and more data from live will drive the point home. I'm not jumping ship yet, but it's discouraging. The last few weeks in SoO, I've been near the top of the pack on most fights, but now it's the opposite. In Mythic I've been bottom of the pack. It seems like we lost inquisition and goak, but there's nothing to make up for it, so we just lost that dps. I know I didn't change my gems and such (I guess mastery is junk now?), so maybe that will help.

[Deleted]

Retribution is in no spot of being benched in your average guild.

because you are a font wisdom when it comes to theses guilds?.

What happens at the top of the chain doesn't affect anyone

Should/actual reality, as a general rule, the later wins.

If this happens in your guild, you can easily prove them wrong.

How?, going by the example of melee, nobody uses lots of melee, are they all bad? not likely, is range so much better really at the level of content, not as such, yet melee have a hard time.

Imagine the day when people stop blindly thinking everything is about dps

for most people it does matter, alot.
Also, just on this page there is bithcing about our hands so,what does the hands have to do with that?

Also, Still, would love a Definition of what period of time content is in the "progression" stage, and when "Farm" begins.

[Ianus]

Yeah, I was struggling to keep up. One thing I noticed is I will spike up higher than everyone right at the beginning during cooldowns and procs, but then after that, it's a slippery slope down to the bottom of the heap. Any movement/downtime whatsoever and the ranged just take over.

Not super optimistic, but I'm hoping the scaling and more data from live will drive the point home. I'm not jumping ship yet, but it's discouraging. The last few weeks in SoO, I've been near the top of the pack on most fights, but now it's the opposite. In Mythic I've been bottom of the pack. It seems like we lost inquisition and goak, but there's nothing to make up for it, so we just lost that dps. I know I didn't change my gems and such (I guess mastery is junk now?), so maybe that will help.

gem haste/crit in red and everything else full crit

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

14k-17k single target dps is what I've been seeing from me and the other ret in our 20man, just sad- sad-sad-sad.
Went for 40% haste and then all crit (around 42%)- tried with crit trinket for shorter fights without much (if any) difference, literately feels like they chopped Inq without considering giving ANY compensation...

[Fredzilla]

14k-17k single target dps is what I've been seeing from me and the other ret in our 20man, just sad- sad-sad-sad.
Went for 40% haste and then all crit (around 42%)- tried with crit trinket for shorter fights without much (if any) difference, literately feels like they chopped Inq without considering giving ANY compensation...

About how it was for me, though recount kept spamming me with errors and our warcraft logs were corrupted =| It's a bit ridiculous. Good thing this month of raiding has no consequence to me whatsoever. If nothing else, maybe they can use it as some empirical data for changes before the real raiding starts again.

[Bonkura]

Rank 2 on Thok (as Ret). Rank 12 in the raid. Rets are strong. ))))

[Ianus]

and some ppl from blizzard and from forums said how simcraft was bad as tool to predict real dps relations..now we all see simcraft was right backed up by logs

[ujx]

Don't worry, level 100 will fix everything.

[Deleted]

Don't worry, level 100 will fix everything.

Retri is the same as before. In my opinion one of the worst dps class with 5.4 and the totally unbalanced 5.4.8 Patch. There was a squish and an ability tuning. But where are we now ? I would say on the same spot. Nothing has changed for us. Yes, everything is balanced for level 100. But if you can count one and one together, you should know that we are on the spot where blizzard want us. Or why do you guys think that it looks every time the same ... on live ( before 6.0.2 ), on pre-patch and wod sims ? Coincidence ? Well ... you can hope for changes. But the chance to be the same as before is much bigger than any other options.

[Ianus]

Retri is the same as before. In my opinion one of the worst dps class with 5.4 and the totally unbalanced 5.4.8 Patch. There was a squish and an ability tuning. But where are we now ? I would say on the same spot. Nothing has changed for us. Yes, everything is balanced for level 100. But if you can count one and one together, you should know that we are on the spot where blizzard want us. Or why do you guys think that it looks every time the same ... on live ( before 6.0.2 ), on pre-patch and wod sims ? Coincidence ? Well ... you can hope for changes. But the chance to be the same as before is much bigger than any other options.

we werent that bad in mists just mediocre and we had devo, now we have shit dps cause removal of inq and no compensation and without devo.. so we are fucked big time