East/West/Grass/Snow

[Spase Peepole]

Too many people say left and right, and depending if they are just spawning, or looking towards the objectives the same way some people might be, it leads to absolute fail, especially in Voidstar. I guess universal cardinal directions in context to the minimap is a real challenge for most pugs I have been in.

[kernelsanderz]

Now now kernelsanderz no need for hostility. Do you know the actual names of the turrets are Generator, Crash Site, and Central Command Center? I mean you guys know the map right with all the times you've been playing. So which side is the Crash Site? It's a visual que.

If I am in Voidstar and say they're attacking the East door you know which side I'm referring to. If in Nova Coast I say I see only one defender @ the West Bunker let's hijack it you know which side I'm referring to. If in Huttball I say I'm taking the northern ramp at the start when you get the ball pass it to me you know which side I'm referring to. So why is someone being elitist because they use a standard directional MAP notation for the various Warzone MAPS? You are the one making FPS references. Aren't they the "elite" ones?

Some are saying why have different references for one map over the other. Players have no problem using East and West for Nova Coast how come it's a problem for Alderaan? Contrary to popular belief Easy and West does not change that you're on Alderaan as opposed to Nova Coast.

Because there are no dramatic visually different features between the east and west bunker at Novare Coast. If one was themed all "good guy" with blue hues and Republic military style architecture and the other was red, messy, and Sithy you can bet they would quickly change from their current cardinal directions to "Pub bunker" and "Imp bunker." And they made south some neutral Trandoshan inspired bunker. Cardinal directions would get tossed out the window. I guarantee it. The bunker features would become the dominate identification.

You arguing the semantics of the names in Civil War is irrelevant. The names aren't plastered all over the ground or on the wall somewhere. In Halo there was a location in Zanzabaar universely known as "Camp Froman." That was because it was actually written on the wall there. The visual features usually always dominate. In competition like this players will look for efficient identification and most of your fellow SWTOR pvp'ers most likely come from some FPS background where the maps all encouraged that form of distinct differentiation.

And I just mentioned elitist because I saw a lot of scoffing, milk spewing, and condescending laughter at the expense of people who weren't jumping on board with your compass identification :P. I was simply trying to clarify their stance or at least as I saw it too. Although I wash my hands of the people saying the compass changes depending on your current faction. Ugh, yeah I'll laugh with you at them lol.

[Xcitement]

Soooo you're saying they are currently using a standard system in Nova Coast because there's no pretty colors?

[Alvito]

It should be easy enough to go with east or west but too many ppl fail with directions to dumb it down and also make things bloodly clear grass/snow work. The ones I really like are the morons that call mid or the center gun CC. Every mmo I have ever played CC = crowd control, how some SWTOR ppl turned it into meaning what I can only guess is short for center cannon is beyond me, even more so since they don't call the other ec, wc, sc or gc.

---------- Post added 2012-07-10 at 03:31 AM ----------

Too many people say left and right, and depending if they are just spawning, or looking towards the objectives the same way some people might be, it leads to absolute fail, especially in Voidstar. I guess universal cardinal directions in context to the minimap is a real challenge for most pugs I have been in.

I have always taught my raiders to look at left or right like you do when you enter the room, kinda like stage right or the starboard side of a ship. This seems to be what ppl most often mean when they say a side in pvp. Since you really never know directions are clear and leave little confusion unless somebody can't figure out east/west. Its kinda like the ball carrier you see going to the wrong goal in huttball even with the arrows pointing them the other direction and their own team screaming at them. Ppl will make mistakes and do it in a glorious manor from time to time.

[kernelsanderz]

Soooo you're saying they are currently using a standard system in Nova Coast because there's no pretty colors?

Lol, ok. It's obvious no matter how much I articulate this for you it's just gonna be viewed as a retard version of map communication. That's fine. If every single online competitive game you've ever played in the past always exclusively used N/S/E/W for identification I can see how you've reached your current state. I was merely attempting to clear it up for you how the grass/snow phenomenon came to be by giving very specific examples from past games. If you don't get it that's cool. Continue staring down your nose and laughing.

Just letting you know that if any future maps deviate from something other than generic map with generic base A, B, C and have at least some level of differing atmosphere, the cardinal directions will not be adopted by the majority of the playerbase. And we'll be having this discussion all over again. Best to get used to the fact now that N/S/E/W will not be the exclusive identifiers.

[Xcitement]

Lol, ok. It's obvious no matter how much I articulate this for you it's just gonna be viewed as a retard version of map communication. That's fine. If every single online competitive game you've ever played in the past always exclusively used N/S/E/W for identification I can see how you've reached your current state. I was merely attempting to clear it up for you how the grass/snow phenomenon came to be by giving very specific examples from past games. If you don't get it that's cool. Continue staring down your nose and laughing.

Just letting you know that if any future maps deviate from something other than generic map with generic base A, B, C and have at least some level of differing atmosphere, the cardinal directions will not be adopted by the majority of the playerbase. And we'll be having this discussion all over again. Best to get used to the fact now that N/S/E/W will not be the exclusive identifiers.

How can you say that with a straight face. Anything but the cardinal directions IS a dumbed down version of MAP communication/directions. You still havn't addressed my statement. Nova Coast does not have pretty colors or huge landmarks so how is it when someone say incoming East or incoming NE no one has a problem with where to go but in Alderaan Civil War people nerd rage because you say East/West instead of Grass/Snow?

The funny thing is people say they are aware where they are and what direction they're facing that's how they know which way to go to get to snow or grass from mid. So tell me if you are so spatially aware why do you have to look at the minimap to know which direction is east? I read the thread on the official forums and people are saying they "just have to run up the ramp and they'll see which side is grass or snow". That's WAY more efficient than glancing at the minimap.

---------- Post added 2012-07-11 at 08:24 AM ----------

Good stuff...

This thread is an epic example of internet. It reminds me of Gulliver's Travels.

I suggest that the prize for winning season one of rated WZ is the victor gets to decree the officially accepted answer to this burning question of larboard / starboard / left / right / east / west / fore / aft / above / below / dorsal / ventral / anterior / posterior / Stark / Tully / ...

If I win can I name them QQ and PewPew?

[Unknown User]

Me and a friend always use "this one" (west), "that one" (mid) and "the other one" (east) when we play together. Confuses the hell out of everyone else :P

But on a more serious note, everyone should know cardinal directions whereas a new player would not know where grass or snow is.

[kernelsanderz]

Xcitement can you honestly tell me with a straight face you've never told someone you would meet them at the 7-Eleven on 25th and Broad? Or the old Best Buy that's been converted to an indoor flea market (just examples). You've exclusively used N/S/E/W? "Alright man I'll meet ya at the movie theater N/W of here about 2 miles." Really? You've never used specific landmarks or geographic locations to identify? Only cardinal directions? Impossible sir.

Look, you may not have played any other game before this that didn't use cardinal directions exclusively but an overwhelming majority of your fellow SWTOR pvp'ers did. WoW or Rift being as good an example as any. You could have obviously used N/S/E/W and yet in Arathi Basin people called out "INC FARM." Farm was south on the map. NOT ONCE did anyone say "INC SOUTH" in my 6 years of playing. Same for Stables. It was north. Not identified as north. Lumber mill was S/W and Gold Mine N/E. All identified by their obvious landmarks and features. Rift callouts in The Codex warfront were handled the same way. The codex itself was north. Vault south. How were incomings called out? Hint: not north and south.

How can you say that with a straight face. Anything but the cardinal directions IS a dumbed down version of MAP communication/directions. You still havn't addressed my statement. Nova Coast does not have pretty colors or huge landmarks so how is it when someone say incoming East or incoming NE no one has a problem with where to go but in Alderaan Civil War people nerd rage because you say East/West instead of Grass/Snow?

The funny thing is people say they are aware where they are and what direction they're facing that's how they know which way to go to get to snow or grass from mid. So tell me if you are so spatially aware why do you have to look at the minimap to know which direction is east? I read the thread on the official forums and people are saying they "just have to run up the ramp and they'll see which side is grass or snow". That's WAY more efficient than glancing at the minimap.

I've already answered your question in regards to using N/S/E/W on Novare vs. grass and snow on Ald but lets do it again shall we. It's because grass and snow are the dominate features and landmarks so they take priority over what actual cardinal direction the locations are. The playerbase is taking what is visually distinct on Ald's 3D map and it is superceding the cardinal 2D map directions. It's the same thing that would happen if they were to ever differentiate the map features on Novare other than "generic wooded coastal region with near identical armaments." Both get the point across but the dominate features on Ald take precedence. And that ties into my next point...

Does it really matter? I AM personally very spatially aware in any given map so whether I've identified in my mind what direction east is or just that east=snowy region, I've already identified which area is getting slammed and needs reinforcements. Does it matter what name it's given? The whole point is to give it a recognizable identifier that everyone can respond to. It's just about efficiency and, clearly based on games in the past with dramatic visually distinct areas, even the map designers themselves tend to encourage those be used in conjuction with the map directions as identification. Otherwise we'd just always be fighting on a Tron grid.

People probably should be paying more attention to the map itself, but the fact is most are getting caught up in pvp'ing and interacting with enemy players on the actual map terrain. Not buried studiously in their map screen or looking down at their minimap constantly. Believe it or not, for a lot of people it's actually more recognizable to know what direction "Grass" is in regards to their current location on the 3D map as opposed to its cardinal direction on the 2D map.

[Xcitement]

Ok I'll make a couple things clear. In the real world there are instances where visual landmarks are used and there are instances where cardinal directions are used. You'd say meet them at the 7-Eleven on 25th and Broad but you'd also say head North on I95. But this is not real life. People do not have a heads up display with a minimap showing which way is north at all times. They don't have a map of the area that can open up in your sight at a thought. That's not available in real life. So I don't get why you and others like to use it to make your point. Hell I could use it to make my point but it doesn't matter because real life and game is different.

You mentioned Stables and Farm in AB battleground because those are the names of the locations. I asked previously why don't they use the names of the locations in Civil War. We can call "Incoming Crash Site" because that's the name. I mean you've been playing the game a while and played a LOT of Alderaan games. Go ahead call it. Now you're using these examples but my point will still stand with said examples. In AB battleground no matter where you stand (except gold mine) you can see Lumber Mill, from Gold Mine it does not matter which way to go it will take you the same amount of time to get to Lumber Mill. The map was designed that way.

In Alderaan when you're in the middle standing at the turret you cannot see the grass or the snow side. You can't zoom the camera back far enough or angle it to see. Some kind of mental association must be done. I've seen people go the wrong way when they call Grass/Snow because they are used to turning Left to go to Snow but because they're on the other faction they turn Left and go the wrong way. When you call East if you don't know which direction you're currently facing one glance of the minimap with a snap of the mouse and you're facing the right way ready to go.

Let me ask you another question. How many times have you seen people ask Which way or what is East/West as opposed to Which way or what is Grass/Snow? People know which way is East and West without ever have played the Warzone. The same cannot be said for Grass and Snow even for those who've played the map before because it may not have ever came up.


Now I'm just explaining why standard map directions which is used worldwide is better in a GAME where a minimap AND a map is available to you easily. I have stated earlier that a player should be aware of what's going on and know which way is the other turret their side controls. So if someone just says "HELP!" I know which way to go because it's either where I am at or Where the other turret we control is.


I also find it quite amusing that you make silly assumptions about SW:TOR being the first MMO I've played in an attempt to "prove your point". What games I've played has no bearing on the point I'm trying to make and you making these statements show how far down on your rope you are.

[notorious98]

You know what would have saved us all some confusion? Making distinctly different areas for each one, giving it its own feel. Like Lumber Mill has a Lumber Mill. Or Stables has a Stable. Or Mines has a Mine. Instead of giving them the name "Crash Site" or "Generator", they should have just called them shits "Grass" and "Snow". I mean, really, when doing a BG in WoW, did any of you call out "Inc East" when defending the Lumber Mill?

[La]

I don`t get how east or west is confusing, even if they`re reversed when you play empire and republic.

when you`re facing your spawns middle, you look left for west, right for east.

every time someone calls "grass" or "snow" I immediately end up looking at the ground =|

[notorious98]

Ok I'll make a couple things clear. In the real world there are instances where visual landmarks are used and there are instances where cardinal directions are used. You'd say meet them at the 7-Eleven on 25th and Broad but you'd also say head North on I95. But this is not real life. People do not have a heads up display with a minimap showing which way is north at all times. They don't have a map of the area that can open up in your sight at a thought. That's not available in real life. So I don't get why you and others like to use it to make your point. Hell I could use it to make my point but it doesn't matter because real life and game is different.

Actually, you can't. People follow the signs that say "I-95 North". It isn't inherently in their mind which way I-95 N is.

You mentioned Stables and Farm in AB battleground because those are the names of the locations. I asked previously why don't they use the names of the locations in Civil War. We can call "Incoming Crash Site" because that's the name. I mean you've been playing the game a while and played a LOT of Alderaan games. Go ahead call it. Now you're using these examples but my point will still stand with said examples. In AB battleground no matter where you stand (except gold mine) you can see Lumber Mill, from Gold Mine it does not matter which way to go it will take you the same amount of time to get to Lumber Mill. The map was designed that way.

In Alderaan when you're in the middle standing at the turret you cannot see the grass or the snow side. You can't zoom the camera back far enough or angle it to see. Some kind of mental association must be done. I've seen people go the wrong way when they call Grass/Snow because they are used to turning Left to go to Snow but because they're on the other faction they turn Left and go the wrong way. When you call East if you don't know which direction you're currently facing one glance of the minimap with a snap of the mouse and you're facing the right way ready to go.

If they're going the wrong way, they don't know the map. Middle is set up similarly on both sides. However, there is a path on either side. The path heading to "Grass" is grass. The path heading to "Snow" is concrete. There is a way to differentiate which side each is one without having to run around.

Let me ask you another question. How many times have you seen people ask Which way or what is East/West as opposed to Which way or what is Grass/Snow? People know which way is East and West without ever have played the Warzone. The same cannot be said for Grass and Snow even for those who've played the map before because it may not have ever came up.

Like I said on that forum thread, the first time I went into CW, someone said "Snow and Mid". When I landed, I saw the "Snow" turret and completely understood why it was called "Snow". When I saw the "Grass" turret, I completely understood why it was called "Grass". Now, I know that I'm a pretty smart guy, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why it's called that. And if you've been in there enough times, you should already have it figured out.

[Xcitement]

Like I said on that forum thread, the first time I went into CW, someone said "Snow and Mid". When I landed, I saw the "Snow" turret and completely understood why it was called "Snow". When I saw the "Grass" turret, I completely understood why it was called "Grass". Now, I know that I'm a pretty smart guy, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why it's called that. And if you've been in there enough times, you should already have it figured out.

And there you go NOT answering the question. How many times have you seen someone ask "Which way is (or what is) East/West?" and how many times have you seen someone ask "Which way is (or what is) Grass/Snow?" I didn't ask if you knew after how ever long after the person made the call.

[Koalachan]

And there you go NOT answering the question. How many times have you seen someone ask "Which way is (or what is) East/West?" and how many times have you seen someone ask "Which way is (or what is) Grass/Snow?" I didn't ask if you knew after how ever long after the person made the call.

0 and 0, so by that reasoning, once again, it isn't that important. As long as people know what you're talking about.

[Rellitan]

You can't go wrong with cardinal directions.

[Alvito]

You can't go wrong with cardinal directions.

You would be surprised how many ppl always think up is north or something insanely dumb like that. At least once a day I see somebody in Novare going on about needed def north or take north and they are at the south or about to attack the south bunker. It should be easy however it isn't always. Then you end up with a map like voidstar where the map is flipped from the room and ppl screw directions in that up all the time.

[Xcitement]

0 and 0, so by that reasoning, once again, it isn't that important. As long as people know what you're talking about.

It's kind of sad you'd like to blatantly when players have admitted to not knowing what they were talking about when they first encountered Grass & Snow also having to explain to players what Grass and Snow is.

[notorious98]

And there you go NOT answering the question. How many times have you seen someone ask "Which way is (or what is) East/West?" and how many times have you seen someone ask "Which way is (or what is) Grass/Snow?" I didn't ask if you knew after how ever long after the person made the call.

And there you go, completely missing the point. How about this? I've never seen anybody ask which way either were. Ever. Now, my point is that if you can't see it and immediately know what "Grass" or "Snow" is, perhaps you should stick to things with less complex strategies. Like Candyland.

P.S. Before somebody gets up in arms, "you" was used as a generality.

[Koalachan]

It's kind of sad you'd like to blatantly when players have admitted to not knowing what they were talking about when they first encountered Grass & Snow also having to explain to players what Grass and Snow is.

Every player who admitted to not knowing grass and snow also admitted it took them all of a half second to figure it out on their own. Which is to say, they looked and went, oh, huge pile of snow.

[Xcitement]

And there you go, completely missing the point. How about this? I've never seen anybody ask which way either were. Ever. Now, my point is that if you can't see it and immediately know what "Grass" or "Snow" is, perhaps you should stick to things with less complex strategies. Like Candyland.

Some players standing at the middle turret.

It could go...

Leetbaby ("Pro" gamer): Hey Macewindooo I want you to head over to Grass and take it.
Macewindooo (Regular Player): Grass?
Leetbaby: Yes Grass. You're such a noob use your eyes and you can see one side has grass and one side and snow on the other side.
Macewindooo looks around.
Macewindooo: Where?
Leetbaby: Go up the ramp and you'll be able to see.
Macewindooo goes up one ramp and then the other to finally see Grass and know which way to go.


ORRRR...

Leetbaby: Hey Macewindooo I want you to head East and take it.
Macewindooo glances at minimap to orientate himself and heads East.