GW2 and Long-Term Viability

[cmc87]

I want to preface this by saying a few things:
- I don't know a whole lot about the GW franchise (just downloaded the first one for a free trial, so I hope to change that), aside from what I've read on this forum and a few other sites (and yes, I read the big primer above in its entirety)
- I'm not trolling
- I know I probably am saying some dumb shit or "missing the point", but that's why I'm asking for clarification.
- I've played WoW for a while, and fully admit to being stuck in that mindset...though I'm here to try to get out of that. It could just be that GW2 just is not the game for me. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it at all - in fact, it looks fucking fun and I plan to try it out regardless. The whole reason for this post is to try to solidify or realign my understanding of the game, for better or for worse, so I know what to expect. I think what I have to say is pretty representative of WoW players in general, and something like this could actually be something other people look to.

My issue with GW2 stems from the apparent lack of endgame content as I understand it. Now some people claim that the whole concept of endgame content that you have to do sequentially, in addition to having to meet certain standards to even attempt it, is stupid. I won't say they're wrong, but I'm just analysing the alternative. To me, the presence of endgame content gives me something to do once I have finally made my character as powerful as it can be from a levelling standpoint. I actually don't mind levelling up, though I will fully admit that the entire process is made significantly more time consuming and labour-intensive than it needs to be in WoW.

With GW2, I just don't understand what it is I'm supposed to do once I hit 80. Apparently there is still a ton of content to see/do once I hit 80, but without the incentive to come back, what is it that keeps me playing? I've gone through it, taken what I need, and...then what? Why do I want to do it again? I actually like the idea of not having huge statistical variations between armor sets, since it basically turns the game into a math class with "stat priorities" and all that shit. That said, it still does give a real sense of progression when you're strong enough to participate in harder raids. This game seems to have a strong emphasis on PvP as well (which I fully admit that I don't do a whole lot of in WoW), so the emphasis being more on skill than "who has more strength" does seem like a better way to go.

I've read in some spots that the endgame is based more around improved aesthetics, earning achievements and titles, and things of that nature. What does this even mean? If I get the cool looking gear from completing something once, then there's nothing to make me come back and do it again - if I don't, then I have to come back and do it repeatedly, which is the grind that this game claims to want to avoid...so that means it must be achievements and stuff?

That makes a bit more sense, but again, it isn't something I see playing out very well long-term, and that's still assuming that it doesn't mean you get a title or achievement simply by virtue of completing a task. I assume it means it needs to be done in a certain way (similar to WoW achievements where you down a boss in x amount of time, don't have anyone get hit by a certain attack, etc). Playing to earn all that stuff may be appealing to some players, but I don't see it being nearly as fruitful as simply allowing characters to make themselves more powerful. I also play games on consoles, and the whole concept seems similar to trophy whoring. People gear up so they can get to the next round of content, but why would they work tirelessly to get titles? They're just going back and doing the same fights over and over, except they get a little trophy instead of a new helmet. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but one option seems more apt to lend itself to the longevity of a game. I'm fully aware that a raid at level 60 is the exact same as a raid at level 85, just with bigger numbers involved.

So, if I understand it correctly, how is it going to keep people coming back? Am I just vastly underestimating the amount of prestige, titles, cool armour, etc. that will be present in the game? Am I also underestimating just how long the game experience will be? I'm all for doing a ton of fun shit with people (more on that later), but Skyrim boasted "endless quests", and just left out the part where you're just going to be doing the same fetch/retrieve shit for the thieves guild a million times for no real reason, reward, or purpose.

Another thing that kind of concerns me about the lack of static endgame content is how it de-emphasizes teamwork. In WoW, the biggest thing that keeps me going back is the comraderie I have built with the people I play with routinely. I have mastered my class, they have mastered theirs, and everyone needs to work as a team to achieve the same goal. Take the dragon they show in all the videos, which is apparently a level 50 boss. To fight that dragon, I can just point and click and that's it. I don't care what everyone else is doing, and I don't need to care. It's going to die eventually. If it's just a one-off event to never (or rarely ever) be repeated, then I would have to assume that it can't be that hard to kill. It may be time consuming, and I may need to play my class well in order to not die myself, but even if I die, it's completely irrelevant, save for the fact that I'm now annoyed with myself. In WoW, if one person dies, then it could be bad (particularly if it's someone vital to the raid comp), and the raid could wipe. Then we have to come back and do it all again until we have it done right, and done as a team. In GW2 it seems like I am completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things - I don't need to be good or bad at anything to really progress through the game. I can run at that thing and die 50 times in 20 minutes, but it's still going to die because someone else will kill it.

Now that I've typed that, I guess that could say the game is about advancing your own skill level so you don't run at it and die 50 times in 5 minutes. Even then though, I see a sort of stagnation happening: I know how to play my class, now what do I do with it?

I guess one other thing to consider is this: the game doesn't charge a subscription fee, so I'm assuming they don't expect me to stick around and play for years. Should I just be treating this more like a single player game that I happen to just play online with a defined beginning, middle and end?

[Fencers]

End of game is not bimodal. At max level you will do the same type of activity you did in the level 1-79 process. There are game mechanism to propel you forward- skill progression, armor progression, commendations, levels, story, etc.

What are you suppose to do at level 80?

Whatever you like and did on the way to 80.

[cmc87]

End of game is not bimodal. At max level you will do the same type of activity you did in the level 1-79 process. There are game mechanism to propel you forward- skill progression, armor progression, commendations, levels, story, etc.

What are you suppose to do at level 80?

Whatever you like and did on the way to 80.

Emphasis mine.

Again, I haven't had much to do with GW2, but my main concern with that is falling into the Skyrim trap. I had fun killing the dragon once and defending the village once, but without any sort of character improvement, what's the incentive to keep doing it? Sure it'll be fun the first one, two, three times, but then what? I suppose if there was just that much variation between dynamic events that I wouldn't feel like I was doing the same thing over and over that it would be fine, but that seems like an incredibly hard feat for a game to accomplish. That's why I wrote this though - even though I think that's incredibly hard to do, is that what they are promising? Just a ton of varying experiences so that I don't feel like I'm just saving the same village over and over?

[Lucky_]

At lvl80 you:

1. Can WvW as a max power character (all talents possible, best stats)
2. Do lvl80 dungeons and zones.
3. Go back to do levelling content and dungeons downscaled to appropriate level.


If you're like me and don't really see 3. as viable and interesting end game as you expect to be done with it by the time you're done with levelling, you're stuck with 1, 2 and sPvP which is accessible at any level but is definitely end game.


EDIT: reading your reply above this post, the answer is none. They do not offer any meaningful incentives in the scope you're looking for. If you do not enjoy "skyrim trap", GW2 is likely going to have the same problem for you. There is no real long term goal beyond actually completing existing content and perhaps waiting for new one to come out and PvP.

[Fencers]

Emphasis mine.

Again, I haven't had much to do with GW2, but my main concern with that is falling into the Skyrim trap. I had fun killing the dragon once and defending the village once, but without any sort of character improvement, what's the incentive to keep doing it? Sure it'll be fun the first one, two, three times, but then what? I suppose if there was just that much variation between dynamic events that I wouldn't feel like I was doing the same thing over and over that it would be fine, but that seems like an incredibly hard feat for a game to accomplish. That's why I wrote this though - even though I think that's incredibly hard to do, is that what they are promising? Just a ton of varying experiences so that I don't feel like I'm just saving the same village over and over?

The incentive is fun. You hunt and kill dragons in Skyrim because the practice is enjoyable. That's the same premise of GW2.

I understand you haven't played the previous Guild Wars titles, but it was the same premise. Those games had a definite "end" to their content. You gained the best quality gear relatively quickly and there was never an increase above that threshold. Content stood challenging, fun and viable for years as a result.

This is the same with Guild Wars 2. For example, if you are level 80, you can go anywhere in the world and be down-leveled so that content is a suitable challenge. You simply... play.

And no. Don't expect the DEs to be wildly different. It's a lot of mob grinding for the most part with occasional collect/escort/use components. These are quests as any other game. Presented differently.

If a player doesn't enjoy the experience of playing Guild Wars at level 3 or 30- they likely won't enjoy it at max level. As you are doing the same things.

[cmc87]

At lvl80 you:

1. Can WvW as a max power character (all talents possible, best stats)
2. Do lvl80 dungeons and zones.
3. Go back to do levelling content and dungeons downscaled to appropriate level.


If you're like me and don't really see 3. as viable and interesting end game as you expect to be done with it by the time you're done with levelling, you're stuck with 1, 2 and sPvP which is accessible at any level but is definitely end game.


EDIT: reading your reply above this post, the answer is none. They do not offer any meaningful incentives in the scope you're looking for. If you do not enjoy "skyrim trap", GW2 is likely going to have the same problem for you. There is no real long term goal beyond actually completing existing content and perhaps waiting for new one to come out and PvP.

So then I just need to treat this game as something that is played once through then done with. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that; I just had the impression that people were treating it more like WOW where it gets played religiously for years to come.

[Maarius]

one has to mention that the hardest content in the game doesn't start at lv.80: explorable mode dungeons are hard from the get go. You can't break the content by outgearing it either, so a lv.35 explorable mode dungeon stays max. difficult. Furthermore there are quite a few really difficult enemies/events in each of the zones. Get to a certain area in the game and you will get scaled back to the level of the area you're in, so content stays challenging.

In GW2 the number of challenging content you find in the game grows further and further opposed to other games where you find a challenge only in zones that match your current level.

Found quite a few really fun and challenging encounters in the lv.1-17 zone Queensdale in the BWEs. Success rewards you with currency you can spend on any level, so it makes sense to backtrack a lot. You'll want to explore everything actually, as each zone has hidden rewards like skill challenges which reward you with skill points you can spend on expensive skills or (with enough endurance) ingredients for legendary weapons.

Most of the fun stuff isn't restricted by level, jump in WvW at lv.1 to get scaled up to 80 automatically. There are 30 different activities in the game you can play at any level... from a basketball-like pvp game to shooting galeries (hunting for highscores) to play tag in the streets of lions arch. There was even a hint to polymock - a minigame based on miniature-battles.

As we have really seen only a small part of the game I wonder what they still haven't shown us yet.

[Delias]

So then I just need to treat this game as something that is played once through then done with. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that; I just had the impression that people were treating it more like WOW where it gets played religiously for years to come.

If you want to. As Fencers said, plenty of people played GW1 for years. What do you do when you hit level cap in WoW and finish the last raid? Run it again. You can do that in GW2 if you choose to, but the rewards given will be cosmetic upgrades instead of stat upgrades.

[Fencers]

The Guild Wars franchise as a whole is casual play focused.

No sub fee. No gearing cycles. No raiding tiers, no required PVP ranks, easy level curves-- drop-in/out, pick-up & play anytime, et cetera.

It's a casual game.

[grandpab]

I just had the impression that people were treating it more like WOW where it gets played religiously for years to come.

That's what I plan on doing

Sure you do things because its 'fun', but everything you do will grant you rewards in the long run. Events give you karma that allows you to buy gear and materials for crafting, and spvp gives you glory that allows you to buy gear for spvp. You even continue getting levels past level 80, you don't level further than 80, but each time you fill up the experience bar at 80 you get a skill point, and we've seen vendors that sell gear for skill points.

[cmc87]

The incentive is fun. You hunt and kill dragons in Skyrim because the practice is enjoyable. That's the same premise of GW2.

I understand you haven't played the previous Guild Wars titles, but it was the same premise. Those games had a definite "end" to their content. You gained the best quality gear relatively quickly and there was never an increase above that threshold. Content stood challenging, fun and viable for years as a result.

This is the same with Guild Wars 2. For example, if you are level 80, you can go anywhere in the world and be down-leveled so that content is a suitable challenge. You simply... play.

And no. Don't expect the DEs to be wildly different. It's a lot of mob grinding for the most part with occasional collect/escort/use components. These are quests as any other game. Presented differently.

If a player doesn't enjoy the experience of playing Guild Wars at level 3 or 30- they likely won't enjoy it at max level. As you are doing the same things.

That's where my issue is though. You hunt and kill dragons because it's fun, but with a diminishing return. First dragon was crazy. Second dragon was crazy because you actually managed to kill it. But then it just becomes the same fight done over, and over, and over, and over. That's all WoW is too, except you get something out of it.

That's not to insult GW2. I am not insulting the concept of "fun", because that would make me an idiot - that's why games are played. I had fun killing dragons in Skyrim the first few times, and now I don't. If the DEs are so dynamic and complex that I can`t help but have an infinite amount of fun with them then that`s awesome, I`m just skeptical about a game being able to deliver something on the Skyrim model of gameplay that can be fun for years to come.

Again though, I plan to try it out either way, it`s just a matter of how long I expect to be playing.

[DrakeWurrum]

So then I just need to treat this game as something that is played once through then done with. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that; I just had the impression that people were treating it more like WOW where it gets played religiously for years to come.

Not necessarily. As I speak, I'm playing through Chrno Trigger for the umpteenth time, and it's still fun.

---------- Post added 2012-07-10 at 01:35 PM ----------

That's all WoW is too, except you get something out of it.

This applies here: http://www.darklegacycomics.com/346.html

What you get out of it is something you still get out of GW2. The difference is that there's no illusion of power increase. You get gear because it looks awesome.

So, basically, the content you have available at level 80 is:
1) literally thousands of dynamic events, that you may never fully complete, and will constantly be added to (they may not even tell you when they do)
2) 8 dungeons, each with a story mode version, and a minimum of 3 different Explorable mode paths that are exclusive and distinct from each other
3) Elite Dynamic Events (example: Shadow Behemoth)
4) WvWvW
5) sPvP
6) Personal story, if you never completed it

And then about a year after release, we'll get the next expansion. We have no details on what it'll have yet, but it'll assuredly have thousands more DEs, as it will be on another continent, likely just as big as what we have now, and more dungeons - hopefully more races, but we'll see.

[Loaf Lord]

It's not like they won't be adding new content either...

[Fencers]

That's where my issue is though. You hunt and kill dragons because it's fun, but with a diminishing return. First dragon was crazy. Second dragon was crazy because you actually managed to kill it. But then it just becomes the same fight done over, and over, and over, and over. That's all WoW is too, except you get something out of it.

There are rewards in GW2 for doing content. Those rewards are simply not a power increase that makes killing those dragons trivial... as others have said above.

All content remains a relatively and suitable challenge regardless of level as a result of a power plateau.

I`m just skeptical about a game being able to deliver something on the Skyrim model of gameplay that can be fun for years to come.

Well, consider this; the first Guild Wars series was highly successful, one of the best selling franchises on PC actually. With the same premise and design philosophy as GW2, the first series has a dedicate and active player base since launch till this current day.

We wouldn't be talking about Guild Wars 2 if the first games failed to be profitable games with a player base that has been entertained for years now.

The design philosophy is proven to work on all counts. Anet are not banging rocks together here.

[Maarius]

So then I just need to treat this game as something that is played once through then done with. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that; I just had the impression that people were treating it more like WOW where it gets played religiously for years to come.

I think it's really important that you consider having fun is possible on various ways... not only restrict yourself to raiding e.g.

Just an example: I tried WvW in the latest BWE and decided to look for this PvP dungeon hidden somewhere in the WvW map. As I finally found it I had a completely new experience. This dungeon was something new I've never seen and surprisingly sooo much fun for me:
-) solve the puzzle: find the way through this huge cave-like dungeon with hidden pathways and traps everywhere
-) gank other players: some guys from my server showed me how much fun it can be to play with the levers for some traps which kick other evil players from narrow paths.
-) get to the loot at the end of the dungeon... hell that was intense.

Just an example of a new gameplay mechanic that wasn't much talked about before. GW2 isn't all about explorable modes or events... there is much more, let's just wait and see instead of starting a "endgame-thread" every day.

[Viscount Thalvaus]

The greatest rewards in the Guild Wars franchise come from prestige and looking like you're a Bad-A. It's essentially how WoW used to be with people wearing Blues being incredibly impressive and purples near godly. Another example would be how the old PvP titles were and the work required to get them.

Titles, armor and dye were some of the most sought after rewards in the first guild wars almost as much as skill and knowing how to play the class to its fullest (as well as each individual mission and or PvP match). In fact, there was one title in specific that was a title for having most other title that was sought after by the vast majority of people, but acquired by only a limited amount due to the time necessary to acquire it (after playing Guild Wars for 83 months I still have yet to get it by a casual amount).

That title was "God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals". In addition to this, there were incredibly rare individual pieces of weapons, shields and armor sets that costs tons of resources, reputation, etc. Some of which had dungeon crawling elements in the hopes of getting such and or just playing the game and having it come naturally over time.

I mean, honestly... if the title were as rare as it was for a vast duration of the lifespan of the previous game, would you want to walk around with incredible looking armor that has the rarest dyes along with the title "God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals"? xD

Aside from that, there are plenty of random events that occur in the world, with zones bringing you to the appropriate level so that it's still content relevant (I always find something new each time I revisited a zone) as well as roughly 32 different types of very hard dungeons they decided not to nerf even though there was a lot of feedback that it was too hard even for guild groups.

Not to mention the vast guild systems that incorporate a way of getting guild influence and spending said influence on Political buffs, Warfare buffs (including contracting guild armorers which make stuff that has your guild emblems on it), etc. As well as there being a personal instance that changes according to the decisions you make and other things (such as housing in a future patch).

Ultimately, so long as there is no subscription fee I will keep going back to the game the same as I do the first one; the same as I do with Diablo 2; the same as I do with Starsiege Tribes; and the same as people do with LoL and other Moba games, but with a vast amount of things to actually do instead of just playing one map. Plus, whenever something new is added, I could just log in day one and play it for a while to get my fill without having to pay a ransom for my characters for the month and then feeling like I was ripped off by the company if I don't play as much as I can in that time frame.

[DrakeWurrum]

Well, consider this; the first Guild Wars series was highly successful, one of the best selling franchises on PC actually. With the same premise and design philosophy as GW2, the first series has a dedicate and active player base since launch till this current day.

We wouldn't be talking about Guild Wars 2 if the first games failed to be profitable games with a player base that has been entertained for years now.

The design philosophy is proven to work on all counts. Anet are not banging rocks together here.

People seem to conveniently forget that number at the end of the game's title.

[nalle]

The only thing that comes to my mind that is different in terms of endgame between WoW and GW2 is that instead of doing 10/25 raids you do 5 mans (that are much harder then 5 mans in WoW) and elite dynamic events (such as the Shatterer etc).

You PvP, you PvE, you "farm" gear, you explore, do jumping puzzles, do DEs (quests).

[Deleted]

It's not like they won't be adding new content either...

I thought I read somewhere that they only plan on doing so through expansion packs. Which is fine for me, just wanted to get that out.

[DrakeWurrum]

I thought I read somewhere that they only plan on doing so through expansion packs. Which is fine for me, just wanted to get that out.

Expansion packs that, I'm pretty sure, they plan to release once a year. :3