The Disenchant Button

[Jalfrezi]

Have you seen the stupid amount of cloth needed to level tailoring? They need that bonus cloth or they would go insane farming it.

From Wow-professions:

1400 Frostweave Cloth
1825 Embersilk Cloth

Also from WoW-professions:

Wrath of the Lich King

1 x Eternium Rod
1 x Titanium Rod
600 x Infinite Dust
29 x Greater Cosmic Essence
2 x Dream Shard
10 x Crystallized Water
Cataclysm

460 x Hypnotic Dust
30 x Lesser Celestial Essence
75 x Greater Celestial Essence
5 x [Elixir's of Impossible Accuracy]
8 x Heavenly Shard
1 x Elementium Rod
5 x Maelstrom Crystal

And mats don't just drop, we've got to get a green/blue/purple to drop first before we can get our material. Which makes the chance even lower. Levelling up through Wotlk and Cata, questing alone, I have been getting 100's of both cloths without effort of farming and without the tailoring perk. As for greens (not inc BoP quest items) I maybe get 20-30 from Wotlk and 15-20 from Cata.

So yeah... what's your point?

---------- Post added 2012-07-13 at 06:13 PM ----------

I can't get over how much rubbish is being spouted in this thread.

You all seem to be missing the point that the blues and epics from dungeons are BoP, and therefore once outside of the dungeon you would have normally vendored the item, not receiving rare/epic materials. Due to being unable to disenchant BoP's. Yes you could get it done at the end of the dungeon IF the enchanter wanted to.

Non enchanters seem to have a sense of entitlement "hurr durr I helped kill the boss therefore I get to roll on the maelstrom crystal." No no no. You helped kill the boss, therefore you get to roll on the ITEM. If you win the item, you should get it in your bag, and should the enchanter choose to DE it for you, that is at their discretion.

An epic chest piece vendors for what? 20g-25g. Well that's normally ALL you would get. But now, it allows people who have their 2 professions, mining and blacksmithing to roll on mats non exclusive to either of their professions, essentially double dipping. So not only can they mine materials, and craft items, but in the event of an enchanter being present they can now AH enchanting materials which out in the wild, they have ZERO chance of obtaining. So that 20-25g chest piece now has a 150g price tag due to an enchanter being present to disenchant it!

Saying that enchanters are being selfish/special snowflake and they have 2 professions for 1 and whatever other retarded comment some MMOC members come up with is stupid. How is disenchanting a free second profession? How can one go out and spend 2 hours farming greens to get Hypnotic dust? You'd essentially be taking pot luck killing mobs to get a green with a 2% if not lower drop rate. So yeah, that's not at all comparable to mining, herbing and skinning.

Some of you need to get over yourselves! If you want enchanting mats, go learning enchanting yourselves and stop leeching off what we have worked to level up.

[Xeraxis]

Again you ignore the fact that the disenchant roll works outside of instances and doesn't require the enchanter to participate in the kill. It only requires the enchanter to be in the group for you to utilize their profession. But I'll play your game.

I helped you kill the mob guarding the herbalism node can I now use your skill to pick from that node?

Again you seem to forget that when not running LFD you don't have to be in a group. Why blame me for you being ignorant and forgetting to disband from the group so that I can't use your enchanting? It honestly seems you just want to bitch about how lazy you are that you can't press a button to disband group.

[Ryve]

But you want to use my skill once you won the roll for the item. You can't have it both ways. Less people did not use enchants back in Wotlk, BC, and Vanilla then they do now. I enchant now as much as I did before. In fact I enchanted more because it was easier for guildies to come to me when they didn't have scrolls to buy or use with their alts skill.

The ecnomoy worked fine prior to a auto-de roll. It will work fine if it was removed or the enchanter was compensated for the use of his skill.

No one is "using your skill" once they've won the item roll. The DE button is tied to the item roll, and you're doing nothing. Just having an appropriate level enchanter in the group unlocks the ability.

It's also good to see that you feel that your personal production and sales of enchants is indicative of the demands of your server. And not that this reflects that your contributions to the server are very small and ultimately insignificant.

So, since we're going down this route, given I have all four tanking classes and specs, does that mean I should get a larger share of all gold from dungeons to reimburse me for my larger repair bills? Likewise if a DPS goes the wrong way and pulls back trash onto the group as such that it kills him and another DPS, can the other DPS who died because of the stupidity of the one who pulled fine him to get reimbursement for his gold?

No? Because that's a straight up stupid idea? Almost as stupid as enchanters who don't understand why it's bad for them as well as everyone else to demand that the number of mats for their profession available is greatly reduced?

[Guavasaur]

Only if I get AoE skinning first.

[rhorle]

Again you seem to forget that when not running LFD you don't have to be in a group. Why blame me for you being ignorant and forgetting to disband from the group so that I can't use your enchanting? It honestly seems you just want to bitch about how lazy you are that you can't press a button to disband group.

Huh? You always have to be in a group to have the auto-de roll option. If you can get it to appear while not in a group as a non-enchanter then you have found a bug. You keep ignoring the question.

Would you be fine with someone picking herbs with your skill when in a group with them? It is a simple yes or now, but that is apparently a hard answer to give.

---------- Post added 2012-07-13 at 07:35 PM ----------

No? Because that's a straight up stupid idea? Almost as stupid as enchanters who don't understand why it's bad for them as well as everyone else to demand that the number of mats for their profession available is greatly reduced?

Being stupid and pulling stuff doesn't require someone to level up a skill so the two are not comparable. Enchanting and mats, and non-enchanters obtaining mats worked fine before the Auto DE roll option. It would work fine without it. It would also work fine with compensation for the enchanter leveling the skill. No one wants to allow free use of their skills in this thread but expect it from enchanters and call them stupid/selfish or worse for wanting something in return for you using their skill to obtain something you normally wouldn't be able to obtain.

[zenzaliv]

No one wants to allow free use of their skills in this thread but expect it from enchanters and call them stupid/selfish or worse for wanting something in return for you using their skill to obtain something you normally wouldn't be able to obtain.

Yet there have been many enchanters in this thread who have said that they like the button for several reasons, the ones who whine about are the minority. Deal with the fact that the feature is here to stay and move on. The next time you level a new alt and take enchanting, be happy that there are cheaperl mats on the ah due to this feature. And while you have not spend thousands to level it, enjoy your profits for doing max level enchants to a wider part of the playerbase.

[Ryve]

Being stupid and pulling stuff doesn't require someone to level up a skill so the two are not comparable. Enchanting and mats, and non-enchanters obtaining mats worked fine before the Auto DE roll option. It would work fine without it. It would also work fine with compensation for the enchanter leveling the skill. No one wants to allow free use of their skills in this thread but expect it from enchanters and call them stupid/selfish or worse for wanting something in return for you using their skill to obtain something you normally wouldn't be able to obtain.

It requires you to level your character to the appropriate level of the dungeon and directly costs you gold you could spend on something else.

It's not a matter of "no one" wanting to share, it's a matter of you not wanting to share. I have all 10 classes, and all gathering and production professions covered at least once. I'm not complaining about others getting dusts instead of vendor trash. I'm not being deprived of anything, I lost the roll, they won it. The very fact that there are all of those people out there who had the mats but not the profession selling them on the AH meant I was able to make enough from buying mats, enchanting to vellum and listing the enchants to stockpile enough extra mats that I could supply my 25 man raiding guild with BiS enchants for free - though many had enough gold/enchanters of their own, so I ended up making a fair bit in gold and giving enchants to people in a 10 man group another of my toons was in, as well as occasionally people who I'd inspect and notice the more expensive enchants missing from their gear (on my real that was peerless stats, +50 wrist, and weapon enchants). That took me 15-30 minutes depending on how much I was making/listing, without using any addons.

If you reduce the supply by, at a conservative estimate, 80% because of your own blind greed, you'll only shoot yourself in the foot.

[Xeraxis]

Huh? You always have to be in a group to have the auto-de roll option. If you can get it to appear while not in a group as a non-enchanter then you have found a bug. You keep ignoring the question.

Would you be fine with someone picking herbs with your skill when in a group with them? It is a simple yes or now, but that is apparently a hard answer to give.

Where are these herb nodes that you can reach while only being in an LFD group? Or do you not understand that no one is forcing you to group and you have a way to not allow others to use your DE option?

[rhorle]

It requires you to level your character to the appropriate level of the dungeon and directly costs you gold you could spend on something else.

That still doesn't relate to people using your trade skill. If enchanting is subjected to extra rules then every trade skill should be subjected to it. Why is it fair that only enchanting is singled out? You call me greedy but we all know that non-enchanters want the mats because of Gold. If enchanting mats weren't worth more then the vendor price of items then no one would care if enchanters were the only ones to get it.

And good for you that your servers economy is filled with stupid people that buy scrolls that are far higher then the what it costs to make those scrolls. Not every server is filled with those type of consumers nor is it a guarantee that you will make high sums off of scrolls just because people get access to something with out having to level the trade skill up.

[Takanami]

I agree to the argument that it is just like any other profession such as mining or skinning. I wont be happy with it till I can roll on your gems, herbs and leather. I for one don't do randoms much anymore partly due to the tedium of them, and when I do I will roll need on anything that I can possibly use, despite being geared in heroic DS items. I don't really care if this makes me selfish or not. If I need enchanting mats I can't just go out and hit a node or kill a snake. I have to disenchant things and that means I have to either hit dungeons, burn points or spend gold in the AH.

Anyway, I'm sour about the entire subject and have seen on my server the value of chants drop ever since this little jewel of a system was implemented. I have indeed considered switching profs, but honestly leveling professions isn't much fun, so I opt not to do that.

[rhorle]

Where are these herb nodes that you can reach while only being in an LFD group? Or do you not understand that no one is forcing you to group and you have a way to not allow others to use your DE option?

Why do you avoid answering a simple yes or no question? Yes or No should I be able to use your herbalism skill to pick herbs when grouped with you? It doesn't matter that you can disband a group to stop disenchanting because it still works in a group outside of an instance. So answer the question though I think it is a safe bet from your run around and refusal to answer that you would say No.

But since you are being stubborn. Lets change from herbalism to mining. Should I be able to use your mining skill while in a group (LFD, cross realm) or otherwise to mine something? http://www.wowhead.com/npc=55559#mining, http://www.wowhead.com/npc=53732#mining, http://www.wowhead.com/npc=42188#mining, http://www.wowhead.com/objects=-4?fi...crs=1581;crv=0

If that still doesn't appease you, then what about skinning? Should I be allowed to use your skinning skill to skin mobs while in a group (LFD, cross realm) or otherwise? http://www.wowhead.com/item=52976#skinned-from:0-2-9+1

[WinninOne]

Imagine this scenario
"Gringgotts disenchanted item x for the group"

What? Maybe I didn't want to disenchant it for that guy.

I think the disenchant button should be exclusive to enchanters, what are your thoughts?

Side note: Would love to be able to disenchant items in the "will not be traded window".

I can't believe this is an idea. This has to be some kind of enchanter troll joke. The level of complaining in WoW already annoys me. To take it to the level of whining about something that doesn't affect you or your character in any way is unspeakably stupid. It demonstrates a level of pettiness so depraved it borders on psychosis. You don't have anymore "right" to an item than any other player. You don't get bonuses because you chose to level enchanting. You get to disenchant stuff because, before this mechanic was put in-game, players were already DE'ing drops for other party members. Blizzard automated the process to keep the run from stalling. It takes more effort to read this post, reply to it, click the reply button, pick your nose, turn on your computor, open your eyes, eat that bag of Dorito's next to you, or wipe the cheese from your chubby, petty, ridiculous fingers than it does to DE something for party members.

[Xeraxis]

Why do you avoid answering a simple yes or no question? Yes or No should I be able to use your herbalism skill to pick herbs when grouped with you? It doesn't matter that you can disband a group to stop disenchanting because it still works in a group outside of an instance. So answer the question though I think it is a safe bet from your run around and refusal to answer that you would say No.

But since you are being stubborn. Lets change from herbalism to mining. Should I be able to use your mining skill while in a group (LFD, cross realm) or otherwise to mine something? http://www.wowhead.com/npc=55559#mining, http://www.wowhead.com/npc=53732#mining, http://www.wowhead.com/npc=42188#mining, http://www.wowhead.com/objects=-4?fi...crs=1581;crv=0

If that still doesn't appease you, then what about skinning? Should I be allowed to use your skinning skill to skin mobs while in a group (LFD, cross realm) or otherwise? http://www.wowhead.com/item=52976#skinned-from:0-2-9+1

Why should it matter if you use my skill to herb, mine, or skin as long as it isn't my time you are using or keeping me from getting my fair share of mats then it has no bearing on me. Or do you believe that those mats are yours regardless of the amount of work everyone else did in downing the mob to get the item to drop? And yes it does matter that it requires you to group because you can easily change that by forming your own groups and not using LFD therefor bypassing the problem.

[rhorle]

You don't have anymore "right" to an item than any other player. You don't get bonuses because you chose to level enchanting. You get to disenchant stuff because, before this mechanic was put in-game, players were already DE'ing drops for other party members. Blizzard automated the process to keep the run from stalling.

The enchanters right is to the enchanting mats which are only obtained through enchanting. The enchanter doesn't have a right to the item that drops from the boss (even if it is an enchanting mat). One of the bonuses to leveling enchanting is being able to disenchant stuff to get mats for your profession. With out enchanting there is no enchanting so its clearly a bonus.

Blizzard automated the process because they also disabled trading of items in cross realm groups. This was so people couldn't transfer items across servers. This impacted the practice/service of Disenchanting because when you disenchant an item that dropped for the group it no longer can be traded cross realm. That is because only items that the group obtained and has rights over can be traded. You could trade the item before it was disenchanted since you can trade it to any one that had rights to loot it. But not after since the Enchanter created the shard/crystal/dust but the group did not. It is convenient but it is also required if cross realm groups want enchanting mats.

[Hedleyazg]

Only way Enchanters can whine about this is if Enchant and Disenchanting are two separate professions like Mining - Engie/BS and Skinning/LW are. Until then, stop being so self entitled. It makes you look petty.

[rhorle]

Why should it matter if you use my skill to herb, mine, or skin as long as it isn't my time you are using or keeping me from getting my fair share of mats then it has no bearing on me. Or do you believe that those mats are yours regardless of the amount of work everyone else did in downing the mob to get the item to drop? And yes it does matter that it requires you to group because you can easily change that by forming your own groups and not using LFD therefor bypassing the problem.

If it has no bearing on you why are you avoiding a simple yes or no? Should I be able to use or benefit from your herbing, mining, and skinning skills while in a LFD group? Yes or No. No kidding it matters that it requires you to group because this only happens in a group. It doesn't matter that you are in LFD or not however because it functions when ever you are in a group regardless of location.

Why does the group have rights to materials gained by a skill that they did not contribute to or help level? The loot is the groups, not what the loot is turned into. If a gem is looted from a boss and I win it. Do I then have the right to use your jewel crafting skill to cut it (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52177#dropped-by)? If I loot ore from a boss do I then have the right to use your prospecting skill to prospect it?

Or do I only have the right to what dropped?

[Xeraxis]

If it has no bearing on you why are you avoiding a simple yes or no? Should I be able to use or benefit from your herbing, mining, and skinning skills while in a LFD group? Yes or No. No kidding it matters that it requires you to group because this only happens in a group. It doesn't matter that you are in LFD or not however because it functions when ever you are in a group regardless of location.

Why does the group have rights to materials gained by a skill that they did not contribute to or help level? The loot is the groups, not what the loot is turned into. If a gem is looted from a boss and I win it. Do I then have the right to use your jewel crafting skill to cut it (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52177#dropped-by)? If I loot ore from a boss do I then have the right to use your prospecting skill to prospect it?

Or do I only have the right to what dropped?

I'm sorry I thought I made it clear it didn't matter to me if you use my skill to herb, mine, or skin. You really should try reading what it is your replying to. And the group has rights to those materials because Blizzard deemed it so. Would you be OK with it if they took disenchanting away from enchanters and just rolled it into an npc in capital cities and left the group UI the same as to allow DEing while in groups? I mean then it wouldn't be your skill any longer so what would you have to bitch about? And is your "leave group button" disabled when not in LFD mine sure seems to work even on my Enchanter, odd that you can't fix this problem yourself.

[Jalfrezi]

If it has no bearing on you why are you avoiding a simple yes or no? Should I be able to use or benefit from your herbing, mining, and skinning skills while in a LFD group? Yes or No. No kidding it matters that it requires you to group because this only happens in a group. It doesn't matter that you are in LFD or not however because it functions when ever you are in a group regardless of location.

Why does the group have rights to materials gained by a skill that they did not contribute to or help level? The loot is the groups, not what the loot is turned into. If a gem is looted from a boss and I win it. Do I then have the right to use your jewel crafting skill to cut it (http://www.wowhead.com/item=52177#dropped-by)? If I loot ore from a boss do I then have the right to use your prospecting skill to prospect it?

Or do I only have the right to what dropped?

Just give it up mate, I think some people in this thread are incapable of understanding anything being said and just have a view that they are entitled to mats regardless. And fail to realise that someone on the other end has had to level it up by picking up items (which incidently DONT MAGICALLY APPEAR LIKE NODES AND REQUIRE A DROP RATE!!!) or spending cash on the AH.

[Lorien]

It has been a longstanding custom in the culture of the game for the entire group to roll on disenchanted mats from drops within the dungeon at the end of that dungeon.

Then LFD came along, and the major concern came along that this would no longer happen and give an unfair, hoarding-like advantage to enchanters because you cannot trade items cross-server, thus negatively affecting the economy of enchanting materials.

If you were the type of enchanter pre-LFD that would refuse to DE items from the dungeon for the group, then you probably weren't the sort of player most people would've be interested in playing with anyway.

Why does the group have rights to materials gained by a skill that they did not contribute to or help level?

The main point of all of this is because in enchanting terms, they helped "mine the node" that dropped the mats. They helped you kill the mob that dropped the item to be DE'd.

How's that for contributing? They mine the node and you want to run off with the mats?

Oh, you could've done it yourself? Then YOU solo the heroic or raid.

There are negligible, unexclusive nodes in dungeons as well as a boss here and there that can be herbed or mined, but those are primary gathering profession perks, and again, negligible because you get the same mats in 2 minutes time farming in an appropriate zone.

It has nothing to do with it being a gathering and crafting profession in one. Jewelcrafting, Inscription, and Tailoring are all such things (Prospecting, Millining, and Cloth Scavenging (bonus to cloth from humanoids)) are all similar to enchanting being a gathering and crafting profession.

It actually has everything to do with the unique nature of enchanting as a gathering/crafting profession rolled into one.

The reason this isn't actually such an issue is that enchanters don't have to have a second profession for gathering materials involved in the chain of production (e.g. unlike jewelcrafters requiring mined unsoulbound ore, scribes requiring picked unsoulbound herbs). In the devs' eyes, the system, pre-DE roll, favored enchanters too heavily in access to mats. You can already DE all of your quest rewards, epics you grow out of, etc.

Prospecting can be done to any ore; milling can be done from any herb. Enchanting has the dysfunctional problem of 'soulbound' items, which is a condition in place to prevent you from trading quality gear - not to prevent access to enchanting mats for non-enchanters. The previous situation with the inability to DE BOP drops that no one in the group will actually use was simply an unintended byproduct of that. Group members are not stealing another player's primary gathering profession, like mining or herbing a node for them that they would otherwise not have access to.

In this regard, it makes enchanting similar to tailoring, where tailors have to compete with others for cloth drops. Tailors get the scavenging compensation; enchanters get compensation by being able to DE all of their soulbound gear as they outgrow it. (Not to mention, tailors also require huge amounts of cloth!)

Yeah, it's like being able to use somebody's "mill" or "prospect" feature whenever you wanted. Oh, I got some spare ore, and I'd like some gems. Free prospect button please?

Because you otherwise would just have to mail it to an alt or trade it to a guildmate with the profession? It's a hassle of a step that everyone in the game was having to make in bulk; it's simply a matter of convenience. Again, the unintended side effect of BOP items skews enchanting in ways other professions are not.

How would you like it if someone could walk up to you, if you maxed something like blacksmithing, and open up a window labeled "Use Player's Professions" and craft whatever they wanted so long as they used their own mats? Would you all be okay with that?

This is not at all the same situation. Disenchanting is a generic ability that is enabled alongside your skill, but has nothing to do with recipes you've paid to train.

Would you be fine with someone picking herbs with your skill when in a group with them? It is a simple yes or now, but that is apparently a hard answer to give.

That's not a parallel situation.

The answer is clearly no, because in doing so, you're taking away the only professional function of having Herbalism. By the decision to introduce DE rolls, the devs have clearly told you that Enchanting's primary benefit to you is being able to enchant gear/sell scrolls for profit, with the added perks of additional stats on your rings and access to the extra mats that come from disenchanting all of your old unused gear and quest rewards.

If that's not enough benefit for you, you should look at having a different profession.

Signed, someone who has three top level enchanters

[Markluzz]

How about a compromise where if the Enchanter wins the item they win it like normal, but if somebody else wins the item via DE, they get the same mats they would normally get and 50% of the amount of those mats is also given to the Enchanter (the one who de'd it). This way the enchanter gets his payment for providing the service, and the service is not removed, and non-Enchanters won't get mad about having to pay the Enchanter.