Lack of Shadow Priest DPS(Recount-MoP)

[ThrashMetalFtw]

I don't understand why u warlock guys whine?
You are simply almost double dps than other classes.. Now if that's fair, then this game would be horrible.

Also i haven't seen any big nerfs yet. In fact u also get buffs..
- one more thing: "then they nerf us, to the middle of the pack and in line with the other casters"
Seriously what do you think this game is?! If you class isn't 10k higher than the other classes, u whine?!
Btw warlocks are in top 3 dps in 4.3.4 - and is needed for every 3v3 almost!

Quit QQ'ing since u don't have anything to cry about.

He didn't in any way QQ or whine. Your entire post is a waste of forum space, and looks more like a troll than a real one. Also, if your Warlocks are top 3, you have some really bad Rogues, Hunters, Mages, Warriors etc.

Finally thanks man!!
- can't wait to play now :-)
3-4k buff! Fuck yeah! <3

That won't mean much. Classes aren't supposed to be balanced at 85 after the 5.0 patch, they are supposed to be balanced at 90

[Deleted]

He didn't in any way QQ or whine. Your entire post is a waste of forum space, and looks more like a troll than a real one. Also, if your Warlocks are top 3, you have some really bad Rogues, Hunters, Mages, Warriors etc.

No, demo warlocks with legendary do a fuck ton of dps.

[Deleted]

He didn't in any way QQ or whine. Your entire post is a waste of forum space, and looks more like a troll than a real one. Also, if your Warlocks are top 3, you have some really bad Rogues, Hunters, Mages, Warriors etc.



That won't mean much. Classes aren't supposed to be balanced at 85 after the 5.0 patch, they are supposed to be balanced at 90

1st thing to your retarded post: i wanted to see the state of SP's right now. And if u would read the thread, u can see that i asked for both 90 and 85. 1-0 to me.

2nd: warlocks qq at fuck? Even though they are the most OP class on the beta (by a huge margin)
2-0 for me.

3rd: hmm u say warlocks arent top 3? Let me show u a link: to the most accurate simulator (im sure you've heard of it, hopefully lol)
3-0 to me.

4th: keep your facts straight and quit trolling when it clearly doesn't have any constructive things...
4-0.

---------- Post added 2012-07-16 at 02:45 PM ----------

http://simulationcraft.org/432/Raid_T13H.html

[Deleted]

29k on live vs 33k on beta on 85 dummy. But than again, dummies worth shit when it comes to SP dps, since we do so much more dmg in execute phase. A lock in your group pulls 10-15k more DPS on a dummy, but when it comes to the fight, we're generally equal, so yeah. But you wanted a comparison.

Also I guess one can get more DPS if he specks MB+PI, I was using insanity+DI. That and some proper DoT and proc tracker. I've probably lost 1-2k DPS due to occasional clipping or falling off. And missed DI procs, still not used to the new shadow orbs.

[Deleted]

I don't understand why u warlock guys whine?

[...]

I'm not a "warlock guy" but I have an interest in warlock. If you'd like to know more about the problems in warlock class I suggest you go read "The Decline and Fall of Warlocks in Cataclysm" by Cynwise.

[Deleted]

29k on live vs 33k on beta on 85 dummy. But than again, dummies worth shit when it comes to SP dps, since we do so much more dmg in execute phase. A lock in your group pulls 10-15k more DPS on a dummy, but when it comes to the fight, we're generally equal, so yeah. But you wanted a comparison.

Also I guess one can get more DPS if he specks MB+PI, I was using insanity+DI. That and some proper DoT and proc tracker. I've probably lost 1-2k DPS due to occasional clipping or falling off. And missed DI procs, still not used to the new shadow orbs.

Thanks man! Appriciate it.
- also Insanity needs tweaking since it's not quite figured out, so it will be a dps loss taking it.
So i guess dps would be higher too :-)

Btw, Divine Insight is currently higher dps than PI - so more dps there too.

But nice to see we are doing well!

[Deleted]

No, demo warlocks with legendary do a fuck ton of dps.

Affli lock with legendary also "do a fuck ton of damage". The best warlock spec depends on the fight (in 10m the buffs also matter which usually boils down to demo best raid-wise). They're quite competitive in that regard without one spec being "the best". For example, demonology on Warmaster is far behind affli and destro but on Ultraxion it is the best spec. You also need to take reforging into account tho one can compensate that and not using "the best spec for the fight" with combination of player skill, gear, and nerf.

[Deleted]

I'm not a "warlock guy" but I have an interest in warlock. If you'd like to know more about the problems in warlock class I suggest you go read "The Decline and Fall of Warlocks in Cataclysm" by Cynwise.

This is only about the complexity..
- warlocks are really hard to play, but so what? If u dont like it then why have a warlock??? To me thats more whine!
But when u know how to play it, it really does pay off because of the nice dps output and good pvp leadership.

---------- Post added 2012-07-16 at 06:01 PM ----------

Affli lock with legendary also "do a fuck ton of damage". The best warlock spec depends on the fight (in 10m the buffs also matter which usually boils down to demo best raid-wise). They're quite competitive in that regard without one spec being "the best". For example, demonology on Warmaster is far behind affli and destro but on Ultraxion it is the best spec. You also need to take reforging into account tho one can compensate that and not using "the best spec for the fight" with combination of player skill, gear, and nerf.

Yes exactly, but then tell me why people whine about their class, since they have so many choices of specs that perform well.
- Seems like warlocks are just greedy. Like if they aren't the best in all aspects of the game - then they feel that they suck

[Deleted]

This is only about the complexity..
- warlocks are really hard to play, but so what? If u dont like it then why have a warlock??? To me thats more whine!
But when u know how to play it, it really does pay off because of the nice dps output and good pvp leadership.

Said series is about a lot of aspects of warlock play including complexity. If you believe the article is only about complexity you lack some serious reading skills. The article isn't only about DPS output and PvP either; far more broad than that. It boils down to that warlocks needed a lot of love in MoP.

Also keep in mind your link is from 4.3.2, assumes BiS, and assumes Patchwerk-style fight.

That said, every class should be roughly equal in how difficult they are to play but have option for talent-based complexity for min-maxing. For the shadow priest this complexity in talent is Divine Insight. This means you play your class because you enjoy playing it, due to the utility it brings, and/or because it is very good on certain fight. But not because of FOTM or because your preferred class is tough to play.

[kaamila]

I don't understand why u warlock guys whine?
You are simply almost double dps than other classes.. Now if that's fair, then this game would be horrible.

Also i haven't seen any big nerfs yet. In fact u also get buffs..
- one more thing: "then they nerf us, to the middle of the pack and in line with the other casters"
Seriously what do you think this game is?! If you class isn't 10k higher than the other classes, u whine?!
Btw warlocks are in top 3 dps in 4.3.4 - and is needed for every 3v3 almost!

Quit QQ'ing since u don't have anything to cry about.

---------- Post added 2012-07-16 at 11:35 AM ----------

And by double dps, i mean in MoP!

im not whining at all. im stating the truth. i never said "OOH BOO HOO WE ALWAYS GET NERFED" i said "blizzard always makes warlocks overpowered at the beginning of every expansion then puts us back in line with everyone else" as to why i said to spriests not to worry about the damage going out right now comparing the 2 classes.

[Deleted]

Said series is about a lot of aspects of warlock play including complexity. If you believe the article is only about complexity you lack some serious reading skills. The article isn't only about DPS output and PvP either; far more broad than that. It boils down to that warlocks needed a lot of love in MoP.

Also keep in mind your link is from 4.3.2, assumes BiS, and assumes Patchwerk-style fight.

That said, every class should be roughly equal in how difficult they are to play but have option for talent-based complexity for min-maxing. For the shadow priest this complexity in talent is Divine Insight. This means you play your class because you enjoy playing it, due to the utility it brings, and/or because it is very good on certain fight. But not because of FOTM or because your preferred class is tough to play.

Again i still dont understand how u can state that they need ALOT og love in MoP.
- They do top dps and is a good if not the best class for 3v3 high rated arenas. Im sorry but i just cant sed your point man..

Yes, all classes should be just as tough to play. But sadly thats not blizzards intention lolz (combat rogue vs subtlety rogue rotation)

But yeah i will say that blizzard have done a good job from what utility does this xpack for all classes.
- they have added utility to the ones that lacked, and removed/reworked some from the classes that had too much!

All in all we can agree, but with your warlock statement you're totally wrong.

---------- Post added 2012-07-16 at 07:22 PM ----------

im not whining at all. im stating the truth. i never said "OOH BOO HOO WE ALWAYS GET NERFED" i said "blizzard always makes warlocks overpowered at the beginning of every expansion then puts us back in line with everyone else" as to why i said to spriests not to worry about the damage going out right now comparing the 2 classes.

And that's how it should be! All classes should be in line with eachother, so stop feeling hurt - it's calles fairness.

[Deleted]

Again i still dont understand how u can state that they need ALOT og love in MoP.
- They do top dps and is a good if not the best class for 3v3 high rated arenas. Im sorry but i just cant sed your point man..

Warlocks are not top DPS in raids in Cata, they were mediocre. All you did was linking a simulationcraft link for 4.3.2 for Patchwerk type of fight. But most fights are not Patchwerk, 4.3.2 is over, and Simcraft used to sim the 4pcT13 not well for spriest. Warlocks also need to continuously respec and reforge for fights to optimize their DPS whereas all a shadow priest has to do is take their OS into account (partly different gearset) and reforge for Spine.

Instead, you can find the data analysis in the series I linked. Add to that they have a far more complex rotation (compared to for example fire mage, arcane mage, shadow priest, even moonkin) and it isn't an attractive class to play. They have been in decline in raiding. They are popular in high end arena, that is true. They are not popular to level. Warlock is still used in 25m hardcore raiding, yes. These people are good at mastering their complex rotation, and also DI is a damage increase. So what do we have? A class which is popular in high end arena, and remains constant in popularity in 25m hardcore raiding. Guess what, this is a terrible class design.

The 3 specs borrow a lot of spells from each other; in MoP each will have their own utility and mechanic. The main rotation from each spec cannot borrow anymore from other specs due to the new talent tree system and design of each talent tree. What I don't understand is why Blizzard wants mages to reuse spells from each others magic school but I do understand that is related to frost being either too OP for PvE or only useful for PvP.

Yes, all classes should be just as tough to play. But sadly thats not blizzards intention lolz (combat rogue vs subtlety rogue rotation)

Yes, it is. If you have played MoP beta the 3 specs of classes are all roughly equal in difficulty (but output and utility differs per fight in both PvP and PvE). The difference lies in the complexity the user prefers with talent and glyph system. Also, your example is between specs of the same class. If it were true for warlock, one of the 3 specs would be tough in rotation but higher in damage with the other being stable and mediocre. This isn't the case for warlock. Sub rogue has its place in PvE, but generally only used at Spine. Warlock, in contrast, constantly has to switch their specs.

All in all we can agree, but with your warlock statement you're totally wrong.

What statement?

The article I quoted explains the points in detail and it has been a while since I read it. However it contained data analysis and compares.

PS: I don't give a flying fuck about top DPS on Madness, I know it is possible to skew the meters there and I know how to do it. It is the prime example of why DPS meters are irrelevant without proper context.

[Deleted]

Warlocks are not top DPS in raids in Cata, they were mediocre. All you did was linking a simulationcraft link for 4.3.2 for Patchwerk type of fight. But most fights are not Patchwerk, 4.3.2 is over, and Simcraft used to sim the 4pcT13 not well for spriest. Warlocks also need to continuously respec and reforge for fights to optimize their DPS whereas all a shadow priest has to do is take their OS into account (partly different gearset) and reforge for Spine.

Instead, you can find the data analysis in the series I linked. Add to that they have a far more complex rotation (compared to for example fire mage, arcane mage, shadow priest, even moonkin) and it isn't an attractive class to play. They have been in decline in raiding. They are popular in high end arena, that is true. They are not popular to level. Warlock is still used in 25m hardcore raiding, yes. These people are good at mastering their complex rotation, and also DI is a damage increase. So what do we have? A class which is popular in high end arena, and remains constant in popularity in 25m hardcore raiding. Guess what, this is a terrible class design.

The 3 specs borrow a lot of spells from each other; in MoP each will have their own utility and mechanic. The main rotation from each spec cannot borrow anymore from other specs due to the new talent tree system and design of each talent tree. What I don't understand is why Blizzard wants mages to reuse spells from each others magic school but I do understand that is related to frost being either too OP for PvE or only useful for PvP.

Yes, it is. If you have played MoP beta the 3 specs of classes are all roughly equal in difficulty (but output and utility differs per fight in both PvP and PvE). The difference lies in the complexity the user prefers with talent and glyph system. Also, your example is between specs of the same class. If it were true for warlock, one of the 3 specs would be tough in rotation but higher in damage with the other being stable and mediocre. This isn't the case for warlock. Sub rogue has its place in PvE, but generally only used at Spine. Warlock, in contrast, constantly has to switch their specs.

What statement?

The article I quoted explains the points in detail and it has been a while since I read it. However it contained data analysis and compares.

PS: I don't give a flying fuck about top DPS on Madness, I know it is possible to skew the meters there and I know how to do it. It is the prime example of why DPS meters are irrelevant without proper context.

Okay lol, i think we are misunderstanding eachother...
Dont want to discuss this over chat, because it's hard to know what the opposite writer means..

Though "Warlocks suck to lvl" - seriously?
Leveling is what suck, the class isn't really what makes the levelin process much slower( i know some are quicker ) but it's the actual leveling that sucks..
Hopefully we can agree with that lol :-)

Though lets just say warlocks are in a VERY VERY good spot right now! And needs to be tuned down (or other classes should be buffed) w/e!

- this thread has turned into something it shouldn't.
So please if others have numbers from beta too, feel free to post!

[DarkSavior]

I'll copy my main over again and post some SS of skada now that addons are enabled. Battle.net log in is acting up atm though.

Near BiS shadow priest. Darksavior. I don't think my raid has seen a random drop spirit ring in 4 months.

[Deleted]

I'll copy my main over again and post some SS of skada now that addons are enabled. Battle.net log in is acting up atm though.

Near BiS shadow priest. Darksavior. I don't think my raid has seen a random drop spirit ring in 4 months.

Awesome bro!

[DarkSavior]

These were 5 min dps tests self-buffed on a clean lvl 85 target dummy, Mind Spiking any residual DoTs away.

Reforged for Haste > Crit > Mastery



And the Results.



You'd be surprised how hard it is to convince a target dummy to stay clean of raid debuffs for 5min.

Notes:

• DPS fluctuates wildly(as much 3k DPS) from RNG alone do to the Divine Insight talent, DTR procing additional Mind Blasts, and our Shadowy Recall mastery procing additional SW:P tics which in turn proc Divine Insight.
• When DTR procs a Mind Spikes triggered from FDCL all DoTs get removed and must be reapplied, deminishing its value.
• Since i had to use the lvl 85 target dummy Mindbender does not get any glancing blows as would against a boss mob so it's numbers are slightly inflated.
• SW:I is rather annoying to use, and very easy to mess up.

As far as i can tell, Mindbender and SW:Insanity are basically identical in single target DPS with FDCL lagging behind. As it Stands SW:Insanity will most defiantly be used on fights with any additional target that lives at least 12 seconds.

[Kaesebrezen]

These were 5 min dps tests self-buffed on a clean lvl 85 target dummy, Mind Spiking any residual DoTs away.

Darnassus, Exodar, Silvermoon, Thunderbluff.

As far as i can tell, Mindbender and SW:Insanity are basically identical in single target DPS with FDCL lagging behind

I wouldn't call a 1k difference identical.

For FDCL, i doubt increasing the procrate will increase it's value. The problem lies within Mindspike not being an upgrade over Mindflay. It doesn't scale with mastery/haste at all.

[Deleted]

These were 5 min dps tests self-buffed on a clean lvl 85 target dummy, Mind Spiking any residual DoTs away.

Reforged for Haste > Crit > Mastery



And the Results.



You'd be surprised how hard it is to convince a target dummy to stay clean of raid debuffs for 5min.

Notes:

• DPS fluctuates wildly(as much 3k DPS) from RNG alone do to the Divine Insight talent, DTR procing additional Mind Blasts, and our Shadowy Recall mastery procing additional SW:P tics which in turn proc Divine Insight.
• When DTR procs a Mind Spikes triggered from FDCL all DoTs get removed and must be reapplied, deminishing its value.
• Since i had to use the lvl 85 target dummy Mindbender does not get any glancing blows as would against a boss mob so it's numbers are slightly inflated.
• SW:I is rather annoying to use, and very easy to mess up.

As far as i can tell, Mindbender and SW:Insanity are basically identical in single target DPS with FDCL lagging behind. As it Stands SW:Insanity will most defiantly be used on fights with any additional target that lives at least 12 seconds.

Omg - a 10k dps increase!
- looks like blizzard has put us in a nice spot.

Also with all the new additions, it also seems like we will have many choices of dmg spells depending on what we want.
Definately gonna main my priest if this goes live!

Again, thanks man! Appriciate your work!

- How do u find us in this xpack? Are u satisfied or?

[Deleted]

Omg - a 10k dps increase!
- looks like blizzard has put us in a nice spot.

Also with all the new additions, it also seems like we will have many choices of dmg spells depending on what we want.
Definately gonna main my priest if this goes live!

Again, thanks man! Appriciate your work!

- How do u find us in this xpack? Are u satisfied or?

at 85....

MoP wont be based around level 85.

[Deleted]

at 85....

MoP wont be based around level 85.

Oh you...
- so u think that a class like warlock does 54k dps on beta right mow at lvl 85, wont have ANY effect at lvl 90...
Comon man - it's not like a class does 20k dps on dummy at lvl 85, and suddenly does 100k dps at lvl 90...
Ofcourse it has influence! It gives u a clear picture of how our damage is gonna be. Also at lvl 90.