5 Holy Power - Builders > Finishers?

[Kelesti]

So, I can't say I speak for everyone, and I'm definitely way late to the party, but messing around with beta (without my clcret), I came to a weird sort of groove on target dummies.

It felt like I was losing damage if I prioritized Finishing Moves over actual generators, unless I was at risk of capping. Am I supposed to be pooling them for empty globals, rather than burning them off at 3? It seems so unintuitive.

[kartmanlol]

That's kinda like on live though, use urr generator unless ur capped nothing is really changed except maybe in pvp you can store up more hp for a quick burst or heal.

[Kelesti]

That's kinda like on live though, use urr generator unless ur capped nothing is really changed except maybe in pvp you can store up more hp for a quick burst or heal.

But you're going above what you need to make the ability its maximum effectiveness.

Hunters, Rogues, Warriors, Enhancement Shaman, Elemental Shaman, Feral Druids, Balance Druids, Affliction Warlocks, Demonology Warlocks, Destruction Warlocks... no one gets to store extra resources. "Oh I have 5 stacks of Maelstrom Weapon for Lightning Bolt, but my Lava Lash cooldown will overlap it, so I should wait 2 seconds first". The same can be said for pretty much any of the above classes/specs. Why is Ret given the ability to make a resource not even matter anymore?

[Tyriss]

I havn't look at numbers on my Ret. But the simple question is: does TV do less damage than CS / Exo ?

[kartmanlol]

But you're going above what you need to make the ability its maximum effectiveness.

Hunters, Rogues, Warriors, Enhancement Shaman, Elemental Shaman, Feral Druids, Balance Druids, Affliction Warlocks, Demonology Warlocks, Destruction Warlocks... no one gets to store extra resources. "Oh I have 5 stacks of Maelstrom Weapon for Lightning Bolt, but my Lava Lash cooldown will overlap it, so I should wait 2 seconds first". The same can be said for pretty much any of the above classes/specs. Why is Ret given the ability to make a resource not even matter anymore?

Our resource in MoP does matter and it is a better system than the other specs that use combo style build ups. Say enh shaman, what if he gets 5 maelstrom wep and in the gcd just b4 he uses lightning bolt, he gets lucky and maelstrom procs again, that new proc will obviously be wasted. Also rogues get a talent that allows them to store combos. Ours is superior because we can store them up to 5 so we can effectively use 1 finisher => 1 generator => another finisher so thats 2 finishers in 3 gcd which can be very good burst/heal in pvp esp.

[Jinivus]

Yeah, rogues are getting something with storing combo points, monks are the same thing with 4-5 chi and abilities that cost 1-3.

---------- Post added 2012-07-15 at 10:50 PM ----------

I havn't look at numbers on my Ret. But the simple question is: does TV do less damage than CS / Exo ?

no, just under 5 HP the highest priority is using a generator that's up

[Kelesti]

Our resource in MoP does matter and it is a better system than the other specs that use combo style build ups. Say enh shaman, what if he gets 5 maelstrom wep and in the gcd just b4 he uses lightning bolt, he gets lucky and maelstrom procs again, that new proc will obviously be wasted. Also rogues get a talent that allows them to store combos. Ours is superior because we can store them up to 5 so we can effectively use 1 finisher => 1 generator => another finisher so thats 2 finishers in 3 gcd which can be very good burst/heal in pvp esp.

What happens?

That Shaman becomes an average, and the spec is bell-curved against the lost resources. Hunters, Warriors, Shadow Priests, Elemental Shaman, they're all bell curved against it. Moonkin can't store more than 100 energy, even if a proc pushes them over it into an eclipse. It's lost, and the spec moves on.

Why does Retribution need this "better system" that takes this out of the player's hands? I thought we wanted a higher skillcap to the spec?

[Jinivus]

A Ret paladin wont 'lose' resources even with a 3 HP system, unless your generator could miss and not generate a HP... you wont ever use a generator at 3... meaning the biggest 'waste' is letting a spell or 2 sit on CD. Excuse the grammar.

Edit: Reread the post, it seems your point was the fact that the spells wait on CD? the same can happen at 5 points...
Kind of reminds me of DKs... use runes until X then dump runic power til Y

[Kelesti]

My problem is that unlike Unholy Death Knights who can't build to 6 charges before activating Dark Transformation, why does a Paladin get that safety net to soak it up until you feel like it (empty gcds)?

Coming from ANY other class, (Rime procs, or you get Hot Streak, you push the button, not wait) it feels so unintuitive.

[Deleted]

Think of it as the cap being 5 than 3 and this "problem" don't exist anymore.

And all other classes, apart from rogues (possibly warlocks as well, not sure on this one though), its luck based if they get their proc or w/e so making the comparison wont be fair, take for example enhance shammy as you've already chosen, getting that stack of maelstrom is not something they are in control over.

[Kelesti]

Think of it as the cap being 5 than 3 and this "problem" don't exist anymore.

And all other classes, apart from rogues (possibly warlocks as well, not sure on this one though), its luck based if they get their proc or w/e so making the comparison wont be fair, take for example enhance shammy as you've already chosen, getting that stack of maelstrom is not something they are in control over.

There was a time when Paladins had a +1 Holy Power proc (original Divine Purpose) and pardon my lack of being able to put this any other way, but it was QQ'd out of existence. Because Paladins felt that they were "wasting" resources, not because of how the spec as a whole was a glowing mobile casino.

[Deleted]

There was a time when Paladins had a +1 Holy Power proc (original Divine Purpose) and pardon my lack of being able to put this any other way, but it was QQ'd out of existence. Because Paladins felt that they were "wasting" resources, not because of how the spec as a whole was a glowing mobile casino.

But that was a "chance on hit to proc" ye? And the model they are using in MoP there is a max of 5 holy power you can gain but only use maximum of 3 when using finishers.

I'm sorry if I misunderstands you but I just cant see the issue really.

[Kelesti]

Actually, it was the chance on pretty much almost anything hits to proc +1 Holy Power, be it finishers, generators, or fillers.

The mastery at the time was 8% +whatever rating conversion to turn auto-attacks into a free Templar's Verdict (the proc effect was called Hand of Light at the time).

The point of the matter is, yes, Mists is using a 5/3 model, giving you an overlap rather than a bell-curve of potential lost resources... like every other class (they're doing it to rogues now too?). My issue is "Why does a spec need a safety net?" That's it. People talk about just how bad and terrible of a design the Glyph of Inquisition is because "we should never use it, just learn to play better blah blah rage rage want to stab ghostcrawler rage", but yet this goes by with either cheers early on, or silent approval, effectively lowering the skillcap rather than giving a player a chance to screw up.

[Malthanis]

The mastery at the time was 8% +whatever rating conversion to turn auto-attacks into a free Templar's Verdict (the proc effect was called Hand of Light at the time).

It was a 1:1 ratio of percent chance to mastery, and the proc would allow any Holy Power finisher to be used, not just TV.

The point of the matter is, yes, Mists is using a 5/3 model, giving you an overlap rather than a bell-curve of potential lost resources... like every other class (they're doing it to rogues now too?). My issue is "Why does a spec need a safety net?" That's it. People talk about just how bad and terrible of a design the Glyph of Inquisition is because "we should never use it, just learn to play better blah blah rage rage want to stab ghostcrawler rage", but yet this goes by with either cheers early on, or silent approval, effectively lowering the skillcap rather than giving a player a chance to screw up.

The rogue ability you mention is Anticipation, and is a level 90 talent.

After playing it a bit, I understand where you're coming from. If you think about it, it doesn't really change the way the system works. You'll use generators until you're capped, then use a finisher. Holy Power #1 and #2 won't really matter, unless you need to fire off finishers in quick succession.

So I guess Boundless Conviction isn't even a QoL improvement.

[lunchbox2042]

Paladins are the starter class so it makes sense that they have the most safety nets.


Veiled insults against the Paladin class and its players in the class's own subforum will not be tolerated. - Malthanis

[Arcanimus]

The way I look at it, it's more of a short window burst passive. For example... Store up 5HP going into a Tendon on Spine HC, TV, CS, TV, Judge, Exo, CS, TV, ect

It also increases flexibility during Zealotry (That does still exist, right?)
Its PvE uses are limited, but its PvP uses are amazing.

[Gum]

I dont get the fuss... You now have a choice. Use generators at 3, or use Finishers at 3. One way is the right way and another is the wrong way. While making the game a bit more complex for the common paladin, theres really nothing wrong with not having to use resources as soon as you get them, i would actually go as far as to say, its bad design. A proc is one thing, but here you guys are building resources to use when you want them, finally being given the choice must be awesome?

How a rotation should be. Proc>Finisher(cap)>Generator(notcap)>Finsiher(notcap)>Filler>Generator(cap) -While i have no idea how the general ret rotation is come mop, id say that well.. It seems to be going in the right direction. Everything that increases skillcap, while not overlycomplicating it while doing so, is a good change :>

[Deleted]

While this topic mainly seems to focus on ret, I'd like to look at this from a holy perspective. Mainly what the pooling resource does is preventing loss of said resources when stuff doesn't line up. Take for instance Warmaster Blackthorn. Often when the big attack strike I already find myself at 3 HP. However just before it's about to hit I want to pre-cast HR so it starts ticking the moment the bomb hits and following it up with LoD. This means I'm wasting resources not because I'm not managing them enough, but because the don't line up to heal ideally.
I can find enough situations where in case of ret this is the same, but storing up a big hit in the current situation is a downright dps loss. Someone mentioned enhance shaman and while it's MS-weapon system is not ideal, it's not their primary nuke (that would Lava Lash and Stormstrike) compared to TV which makes delaying MW less of a loss when you 'pool' it.

[Kelesti]

I dont get the fuss... You now have a choice. Use generators at 3, or use Finishers at 3. One way is the right way and another is the wrong way. While making the game a bit more complex for the common paladin, theres really nothing wrong with not having to use resources as soon as you get them, i would actually go as far as to say, its bad design. A proc is one thing, but here you guys are building resources to use when you want them, finally being given the choice must be awesome?

How a rotation should be. Proc>Finisher(cap)>Generator(notcap)>Finsiher(notcap)>Filler>Generator(cap) -While i have no idea how the general ret rotation is come mop, id say that well.. It seems to be going in the right direction. Everything that increases skillcap, while not overlycomplicating it while doing so, is a good change :>

The Proc has the same effect as the finisher, in this case it's the same spell (if you still talent into it). And therefore, the proc itself sits on the sidelines unless you a) get an empty Global, or b) cap your Holy Power out at 5.

[Elovan]

I wouldn't really consider it a safety net, the rotation barely changes from what it is on live, ret paladin's system of prioritizing generators over finishers while below cap is just a different way of doing a combo point system. The biggest reason generators are prioritized over finishers for ret is because ret's resource generating abilities are cooldowns, unlike other resource generators. This makes it imperative that in order to get as much Holy Power as possible we want to avoid delaying a generator, since that will mean less Holy Power through the fight overall and less TV's.

Being able to store 5 Holy Power instead of 3 doesn't take away the ability to lose resources, it just moves the cap up. Since our generators are prioritized before our finishers, instead of fluctuating between 0 and 3 Holy Power, we now fluctuate between 2 and 5 Holy Power. Having those 2 extra Holy Power really doesn't dumb down the rotation, and instead gives us more fluidity since it gives us more flexibility on refreshing Inquisition or tossing out an emergency heal through WoG, etc.