Shockadin!

[SirReal]

Good contribution bro

at least his was funny....

[Deleted]

I remember at the end of wrath doing bgs for lols as exordin winning damage done and kills.

Them times!

[Malthanis]

Well considering you have to take up all your major glyph slots and some of them do reduce your healing, you wont be doing as much healing as a heal focused paladin if you take this route.

It would have to go further than that. You would have to have a dedicated way to generate resources through damage, like caster DPS specs have. I've got no experience with it specifically, but it would have to be similar to a Shadow Priest trying to heal.

Well I saw a Swifty video where a holy pally kills Swifty in 14 seconds. That was a faster time than some DPS specs.

If that was the 'burst' video that people are talking about, it's not a very good comparison. From what I've heard, Swifty does his best to set up a 'best case' scenario for the person attacking him (i.e. no defensive CDs, doing nothing to interrupt them).

[Deathgoose]

It would have to go further than that. You would have to have a dedicated way to generate resources through damage, like caster DPS specs have. I've got no experience with it specifically, but it would have to be similar to a Shadow Priest trying to heal.

Shadow Priest and Boomkins have their respective "forms" they must maintain to do better DPS. Healing immediately drops them out of their form.

Since Paladins, Holy or not, have no "form" they must maintain, they are closer to Shaman in that regards. So they would have to function more like Elemental Shaman that try to heal (Which is to say, they can do fine for short periods, especially if the healer went down in a dungeon or something, but they lack the raw throughput and longevity that Resto has.)

Still, if Druids can have a 4th spec, splitting Kitty and Bear, then I don't know why Paladins can't have their Holy tree split into a healing vs ranged caster DPS.

[Zergin8r]

Shockadin also worked in BC because once you got the Holy Shock talent in the Holy tree, you put the rest in Ret, and got a lot of DPS talents, since people were allowed to make true hybrid specs. (IIRC, the Shockadin build was something like a 31/0/30 build. I didn't really play it, and it's been a loooong time since BC)

There was also the brief period in Wrath when Sheath of Light was much lower in the talent tree and Holy could grab it for extra spellpower. But that got "nerfed" by being moved much deeper into the tree. (Which also resulted in some weird "healer" builds that went deeper into Ret than Holy)

So much of what used to be the case hasn't been true for so long, and with the removal of true hybrid builds, I don't see a few glyphs returning this playstyle to anything viable any more than a few glyphs will allow Demo Locks to tank. (Notice how those glyphs got systematically nerfed to limit the ability?)

Not as bad as the self healing fury tank build.

[Aqua]

I'm very tempted to give it a go for giggles. I don't think it's going to outshine ret in raw numbers but I think there may be a niche for it.

[Deleted]

Shadow Priest and Boomkins have their respective "forms" they must maintain to do better DPS. Healing immediately drops them out of their form.

Druids can glyph to cast healing spells in Moonkin form in MoP, not sure if Shadow Priests have something similar.

---------- Post added 2012-07-17 at 08:47 PM ----------

I'm very tempted to give it a go for giggles. I don't think it's going to outshine ret in raw numbers but I think there may be a niche for it.

Yeh idd. Whenever it's mentioned you get the "OMG DAT NOT VIABLE EJ!!WOLLOLPWN" crowd, when really all we want to do is have some fun while running BG's.

[Malthanis]

Still, if Druids can have a 4th spec, splitting Kitty and Bear, then I don't know why Paladins can't have their Holy tree split into a healing vs ranged caster DPS.

Oh, I'm a big fan of the "4th spec for all classes" movement. It's possible too, since they can alter coefficients based on spec for shared spells. That way, a Holy paladin could retain their damage dealing spells, but they'd be far less effective than an Exorcist's (or would the 4th spec be a Denouncer now?).

But now isn't the time for a fourth paladin spec. It will have to come after the rollout of the new spec/talent system, if it ever happens. They only split Feral and Guardian so they could tone down the ability of Feral tanks to DPS, and the ability of Feral DPS to tank.

[Pasture]

Just jumped on the BETA having transferred my 85 Holy Paladin across. 10.6k spellpower and 32% haste.

I used Seal of Insight for the 10% casting speed. Glyphs were the WoG as a finisher glyph, WoG gives 6 second 9% damage buff glyph and Holy Shock does extra damage but reduced healing glyph. Against 85 dummies the abilities do the following damage:

Holy Shock: 32k, WoG: 25k, Denounce: 16k

Initially what strikes me is that WoG as a dps finisher is very weak. It hits for considerably less than Holy Shock which only has a 6 second cooldown. I imagine this has to be the case to stop Ret and Prot wanting to use it, but it's not very satisfying to use having spent 18 seconds preparing to unleash it. It also misses a lot if used on higher level mobs as it doesn't inherit Holy hit. Solution: Remove this as a glyph and bake it into the Holy spec. It's just complicating Ret and Prot anyway. Make sure it inherits hit and allow it to work with Eternal Flame to make it feel rewarding as a finisher.

Most of our damage as Holy comes from Holy Shock. As such Holy Avenger isn't great. You don't get many WoG from it and they're not worth much anyway. Far more useful for Holy dps is to take the Santified Wrath for 30 second Avenging Wrath and 3 second Holy Shock. You're going to get a lot more output out of it.

I dismissed this the other day when it was brought up, but having played it, not being able to AoE is a pain in the ass when questing. It's not very fun having to drop a nuke on 10 different weak targets because you no longer have an AoE attack.

Questing seemed fine. Things died fast enough for it to not feel too problematic, but these were the starter zones I was trying out. The story might be different at 90 end zones.

[BobAwesome]

No offence to Swifty, but the guy is not a wow guru or anything, he often doesn't know what he's talking about. Since I haven't watched the videos I can't judge, but it wouldn't surprise me if he just got some random people from the beta that had no clue what they were doing. Atleast that happened when he was showing cata beta.

You're judging him fyi.

[Deathgoose]

Oh, I'm a big fan of the "4th spec for all classes" movement. It's possible too, since they can alter coefficients based on spec for shared spells. That way, a Holy paladin could retain their damage dealing spells, but they'd be far less effective than an Exorcist's (or would the 4th spec be a Denouncer now?).

But now isn't the time for a fourth paladin spec. It will have to come after the rollout of the new spec/talent system, if it ever happens. They only split Feral and Guardian so they could tone down the ability of Feral tanks to DPS, and the ability of Feral DPS to tank.

Well, the other "benefit", if you will, of splitting Holy into a healing vs DPS spec is the loot tables. Currently, Str plate, Tank plate, Agi mail, Int mail, Agi leather, Int leather, Spirit cloth, and DPS cloth is each used by at least two specs with different roles, or two classes.

Spirit Plate is the sole exception. By splitting Holy into a heal vs dps tree, then that gear will also be usable by two specs with different roles. Additionally, it would then put Paladin healers in line with the other 3 healers, meaning they would have a proper DPS alternative that could largely use the same gear. (Resto Shammy shares Elemental gear, Resto Druid shares Boomkin gear, Holy/Disc shares Shadow gear)

Granted, the healing monk would stand alone, but then, they use Int leather, which is already shared by two other specs, so it's not much of an issue with them.

[Baneslayer]

Well even on live in cata you in LFR you can beat like at least 5 people on the meters, as a shockadin, will probably better in MoP.

LFR is essentially the story mode of WoW. And really not a good judge if something is going to be viable or not.

So with all the new glyphs for MoP does anybody else think the shockadin play style for pve or pvp, will be more viable than it has been since TBC?

Really it isn't going to be viable and it never was meant to be viable. Shockadins are a nice little things that people did back in TBC and Vanilla but even as the devs push more and more towards X spec getting Y ability to help them with Z task the likelihood of hybrid style specs grows smaller and smaller. Blizzard wants you to stick to what your spec is suppose to do. Grant it they do give certain classes the ability to do some damage, healing or even tanking outside of their normal role. the glyph of metamorphosis, holy pallies damaging glyphs and the druid talent heart of the wild come to mind.

For the most part however, if your specialization is meant to tank, you will tank. If it's meant to be ranged DPS, you will be ranged DPS. I know it seems crazy, but specializations are going to do, what they are meant to do.

[Deleted]

You're judging him fyi.

It's more a warning to people and the masses that follow him blindly, that they shouldn't take everything he says for the truth. I personally have witnessed countless errors that he has named in his videos.
Besides why would you point that out? Never said I wouldn't judge him, just said I wouldn't judge the video, as I haven't watched it.

[Punks]

No offence to Swifty, but the guy is not a wow guru or anything, he often doesn't know what he's talking about. Since I haven't watched the videos I can't judge, but it wouldn't surprise me if he just got some random people from the beta that had no clue what they were doing. Atleast that happened when he was showing cata beta.

Except you did judge, get over yourself. He knows more about this one class than you could even possible know about the whole game. Just stop.

[Lyriok]

Except you did judge, get over yourself. He knows more about this one class than you could even possible know about the whole game. Just stop.

Calm down, He never said he woudn't judge him he said he coudn't and the way I take it his saying that as in "I can't accurately judge"

Let's not get off topic alright?

I think it's something that'll be nerfed IF it does keep up with DPS other than that its just something to make questing easier IMO.

[Playintrafic]

According to the people I meet in dungeon finder Holy is a perfectly viable DPS now.

I mean, today on Mannoroth in WoE, I pulled maybe 13k dps. This single 2h wielding Fury warrior was only doing like 15k. He was gemming parry. So if I am nearly as good as him then I will be able to play shockadin with the new glyphs and what not we are getting mop.

Thing is I could only keep up such high amounts of DPS for about a min tops. Then I was oom. Good thing there wasn't any fire to stand in since the same warrior stood in all of it for me and ended up kissing the floor pretty hard.

[Tullkas]

Please dont start some hype about shockadins viability, it really worked only in TBC PvP with that special PvP gear made for shockadins... Those times are over and until Blizzard doesnt make 4th spec for paladin like they do for druid it will never come back in that TBC form.

1.) This changes are being done to help holy paladins to lvl up as palies just cant simply switch spec from healer to dps and dps as druid and shammie can due to int/str on plate problem
2.) What you see in beta (numbers) is something that is not going live probably
3.) This wont be for sure viable for raiding and you can expect that it will work only in 5-mans when you overgear the instance as a "for fun" build
4.) This will be maybe (I hope) viable for some 2v2 setups where paladin will be able to play semi dps/ semi healer role which will be fun to try

True is that holy paladin is getting some nice offensive utility and will be able to play a bit as a disc priest was in PvP, which is very nice and interesting change. In 3v3 however damage and pressure will be imo too high as always was and paly will have to go full healing mode.

[Deleted]

Except you did judge, get over yourself. He knows more about this one class than you could even possible know about the whole game. Just stop.

It's more a warning to people and the masses that follow him blindly, that they shouldn't take everything he says for the truth. I personally have witnessed countless errors that he has named in his videos.
Besides why would you point that out? Never said I wouldn't judge him, just said I wouldn't judge the video, as I haven't watched it.

Quoting myself.
This guy knows more about the game than me? yeaaah.
Now I went to watch the video. The Ret paladin was divine storming him for burst, and holy paladin took 26 seconds to kill him (wooh!! dangerous burst right there). Don't be rude especially when you make yourself look like an idiot. I was right even without watching the video. Swifty once again just found some random people where only some of them know what they are doing. Just go watch his cata beta burst video, same things.
DON'T TAKE ANYTHING THIS GUY SAYS FOR THE TRUTH.

[Deleted]

more viable then ret, thats for sure

[loki504]

LFR is essentially the story mode of WoW. And really not a good judge if something is going to be viable or not.



Really it isn't going to be viable and it never was meant to be viable. Shockadins are a nice little things that people did back in TBC and Vanilla but even as the devs push more and more towards X spec getting Y ability to help them with Z task the likelihood of hybrid style specs grows smaller and smaller. Blizzard wants you to stick to what your spec is suppose to do. Grant it they do give certain classes the ability to do some damage, healing or even tanking outside of their normal role. the glyph of metamorphosis, holy pallies damaging glyphs and the druid talent heart of the wild come to mind.

For the most part however, if your specialization is meant to tank, you will tank. If it's meant to be ranged DPS, you will be ranged DPS. I know it seems crazy, but specializations are going to do, what they are meant to do.

if your not the lowest in lfr it means it is viable. but you should stick to some random bg and dungeon. sure no raid leader will take you as dps. but random dungeon lfr and heroic will be done as shockadin.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/viable

viable means capable of living. and if your not the lowest on the dps list it means it is viable.

is it going to be a real dps spec? no. but we didn't ask for it. we asked for this fun spec where we could kill undergeared players.
same as demo warlock tanks will be viable when you make content to easy. so if you want it to be non viable. just increase the diffeculty of the content.