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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    Roiling blood is more like avengers shield than it is consecration, with that being said, if the devs actually implemented the changes to blood shield like they originally discussed we wouldn't get murdered if we have to use a couple of death runes on blood boils.
    I would say Roiling Blood is more similar to Consecration/TClap with Deep Wounds than Avenger's Shield. It's an AoE move that spreads DoTs around and is aimed at making an optimal AoE rotation easier.
    You have a 50k bloodshield, next hit does 60k, you take only 10k damage, 50k absorbed. Blood shield gone, and our health looks ok to our healer. BAM, next hit unmitigated 60k, healer 'panics' and overheals with expensive heals, spending much more mana than actually needed, ...
    Add that to how DS works, that you are mitigating AFTER a big hit has landed rather than BEFORE the big hit is going to land (eg. Shield Block), it also contributes to the spikyness.
    Last edited by ugeowhopwr; 2012-07-27 at 12:25 PM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugeowhopwr View Post
    I would say Roiling Blood is more similar to Consecration/TClap with Deep Wounds than Avenger's Shield. It's an AoE move that spreads DoTs around and is aimed at making an optimal AoE rotation easier.

    Add that to how DS works, that you are mitigating AFTER a big hit has landed rather than BEFORE the big hit is going to land (eg. Shield Block), it also contributes to the spikyness.
    Comparing our diseases to deep wounds is a stretch considering just how little threat our diseases actually generate but I can see the point of comparison between rolling blood and thunderclap.

    Our spike damage will be greatly reduced if a change to blood shield is implemented to where it becomes a resource we add to/replenish but never lose like GC mentioned doing months ago.
    Last edited by Samsarathedk; 2012-07-27 at 12:30 PM.

  3. #43
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    How would that work (Blood shield being constant)? It may be me being rather dense, but I cannot see that working with the current iteration of Blood Shield.

    Also, is Blade Barrier in the beta? I can't find it anywhere on the Mists calculator.


    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    A lot of us like the dk-minigame
    I still miss Rune Tetris
    Last edited by Gibbsy999; 2012-07-27 at 12:35 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugeowhopwr View Post
    I would say Roiling Blood is more similar to Consecration/TClap with Deep Wounds than Avenger's Shield. It's an AoE move that spreads DoTs around and is aimed at making an optimal AoE rotation easier.
    Except consecration is an instant aoe that deals immediate damage, has a 100% uptime, is more or less free, can be cast from far away, and requires absolutely no management. Frankly, it is way more like death and decay than anything else, except for the uptime and cost parts. (And the fact it doesn't impact your mitigation)

    Also, is Blade Barrier in the beta? I can't find it anywhere on the Mists calculator.
    Gone, so is toughness. (+10% armor)

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    Our spike damage will be greatly reduced if a change to blood shield is implemented to where it becomes a resource we add to/replenish but never lose like GC mentioned doing months ago.
    I don't completely understand how this would work though? Once it is active, it just acts like another % damage reduction basicly? Basicly a new Blade Barrier? Increasing the passive mitigation will require a nerf in the active mitigation somehow, and that's not what we want I think.

    What we want is more flexibility with runes, -> Blood Boil using RP for example. Also a mechanic to increase RP generation when fighting groups could help in this by providing enough RP to use Blood Boil more often. Perhaps something along the lines of "Whenever a target takes damage from your Death and Decay you gain 1(2?) runic power.", which can then be spend on Blood Boil for good snap threat.

    Gambling RE for unholy/frost runes while sitting on a blood rune is also one of those things which severely restricts our flexibility (could be avoided by picking RC). Not spending a rune to obtain a bonus feels counter-intuitive anyway. If RE would be changed to active a random fully depleted rune as a Death Rune, it would no longer be required to sit on that blood rune.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    Except consecration is an instant aoe that deals immediate damage, has a 100% uptime, is more or less free, can be cast from far away, and requires absolutely no management. Frankly, it is way more like death and decay than anything else, except for the uptime and cost parts. (And the fact it doesn't impact your mitigation)
    Alright, let's not get lost in argueing who has the best analogy or which class has the easiest AoE rotation.
    Not spending a rune to obtain a bonus feels counter-intuitive anyway. If RE would be changed to active a random fully depleted rune as a Death Rune, it would no longer be required to sit on that blood rune.
    Actually banking on a blood rune might not be as counter intuitive as it seems. Considering how runes regenerate, immediately spending two blood runes does not yield more long term effects than banking on one (not counting how RE plays), as only one rune will regenerate at a time. If RE was changed to replenishing as a Death Rune, then BT is meaningless in its current form.

    Since no one commented on my suggestion, I will post it again as to me, it seems to be the easiest way to fix the rigidity of choosing between mitigation and snap aggro.
    Speccing into Blood should make Death Strike cost runic power, and Rune Strike cost Frost+Unholy. Keep the mechanics of these strikes the same as before, while adjusting numbers to fit whatever vision Blizzard has for DK tanking.
    This way Rune Strike becomes the "Shield Slam" for big snap aggro on single targets, while the active mitigation is separated from resources used to generate threat, in line with other classes. (BT, RE and RC will now proc on Death Strike instead, and Blood Rites will proc on Rune Strike)
    Last edited by ugeowhopwr; 2012-07-27 at 01:11 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugeowhopwr View Post
    Alright, let's not get lost in argueing who has the best analogy or which class has the easiest AoE rotation.
    Actually, I'd say this would be the whole point.

    We could totally give up and go live with the current state. Why complain as long as it works, right ? But we shouldn't. In my eyes, things aren't right because the job is easier, and more practical for other classes. Looking at others is actually the best way to notice if we're lacking tools, survival or utility and gives us ways to consider improvement. (Without necessarily being a carbon copy of those classes.)

    That's how I see things. And if DKs stay the way they are right now, I'm switching to the paladin world, because things are flowing nicely over there.

    I sometime have the feeling there are totally different team working on every classes, and some of them aren't as good as others to really not see what is happening with us.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by ugeowhopwr View Post
    Since no one commented on my suggestion, I will post it again as to me, it seems to be the easiest way to fix the rigidity of choosing between mitigation and snap aggro.
    Speccing into Blood should make Death Strike cost runic power, and Rune Strike cost Frost+Unholy. Keep the mechanics of these strikes the same as before, while adjusting numbers to fit whatever vision Blizzard has for DK tanking.
    This way Rune Strike becomes the "Shield Slam" for big snap aggro on single targets, while the active mitigation is separated from resources used to generate threat, in line with other classes. (BT, RE and RC will now proc on Death Strike instead, and Blood Rites will proc on Rune Strike)
    That sounds like a really good solution. Rune Strike to convert Unholy/Frost to Death. Then dumping all in Heart Strike/Blood Boil. Nice! But I really doubt it will be ever implemented because it changes mechanics alot. But we can only hope. Also no longer needed to sit on a Blood Rune!

  9. #49
    That sounds like a really good solution.
    Thanks for the positive feedback. For numbers, I think on beta currently Rune Strike costs 20 RP, which needs to be kept the same for our new DS or it unbalances BT/RE/RC. This would make the new DS much more spammable (considering Blood gets a free 20% faster rune refresh, new SoB giving RP for autoattacks, Horn of Winter etc.) which means the healing and damage needs to be tuned down to counter balance. In this case, Rune Strike damage needs to go up so it comes to the current levels of DS (330% weapon damage as in Cata right now).

    So all in all, more spammable, smaller heals to smooth out the spikyness (although spikyness cannot be fully avoided for Blood because their active mitigation repairs the damage rather than preventing the damage), no need to bank on runes or game the RE, new DS shares resources with other mitigation tools such as DRW, DC healing through Lichborn and Runic Conversion talent, and is freed from threat-generating resources (runes).

    Actually, I'd say this would be the whole point.
    Actually the discussion was about having to sacrifice mitigation to adapt to surprise situations, which no other tank class has to do. It's more about being impractical and badly designed than easy/hard.
    Last edited by ugeowhopwr; 2012-07-27 at 01:52 PM.

  10. #50
    Disregard.
    Last edited by yehyehyehyeh; 2012-07-27 at 01:48 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugeowhopwr View Post
    Actually the discussion was about having to sacrifice mitigation to adapt to surprise situations, which no other tank class has to do. It's more about being impractical and badly designed than easy/hard.
    Unfortunately, no one can be sure. It's what I'd like to believe personnally, but we have so few blue answers about blood DKs that we don't even know if our current condition is actually intended or not. To them, what they see is mostly fine.

    I'm afraid we are gonna ship in this state, similar to when Cataclysm went live. We had tons of problems and devs took an entire expansion to fix us, despite being told what was wrong by the community since beta.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by yehyehyehyeh View Post
    I don't completely understand how this would work though? Once it is active, it just acts like another % damage reduction basicly? Basicly a new Blade Barrier? Increasing the passive mitigation will require a nerf in the active mitigation somehow, and that's not what we want I think.

    What we want is more flexibility with runes, -> Blood Boil using RP for example. Also a mechanic to increase RP generation when fighting groups could help in this by providing enough RP to use Blood Boil more often. Perhaps something along the lines of "Whenever a target takes damage from your Death and Decay you gain 1(2?) runic power.", which can then be spend on Blood Boil for good snap threat.

    Gambling RE for unholy/frost runes while sitting on a blood rune is also one of those things which severely restricts our flexibility (could be avoided by picking RC). Not spending a rune to obtain a bonus feels counter-intuitive anyway. If RE would be changed to active a random fully depleted rune as a Death Rune, it would no longer be required to sit on that blood rune.
    Alright let me elaborate further, GC mentioned many months ago that he thought it would be a good idea to give blood dks some baseline passive damage reduction in the form of giving us a base blood shield at all times this would be so we can counter balance moments where our shields get decimated think later parts of heroic Zon'ozz pre-nerf. This would act as a padding to help us reduce our chance of spike damage and in no way shape or form would require our active mitigation to be nerfed because we play an active role in either increasing or decreasing the amount our shields absorb for and in turn how much we heal for; if choose to do nothing we only get say a 50K baseline shield, however, if we choose to death strike after a huge chunk of damage the amount you would shield for gets tacked onto the 50K thus providing greater survivability. This would also be in sync with paladins who can now use SoR to gain both block and stacks which can increase their next WoG for up to 100%.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    Unfortunately, no one can be sure. It's what I'd like to believe personnally, but we have so few blue answers about blood DKs that we don't even know if our current condition is actually intended or not. To them, what they see is mostly fine.

    I'm afraid we are gonna ship in this state, similar to when Cataclysm went live. We had tons of problems and devs took an entire expansion to fix us, despite being told what was wrong by the community since beta.
    I am just theorizing here (not even theorycrafting! ), but shouldn't the new Blood Tap fix most problems? It basically changes the current BT from a static cooldown to a cooldown based on how fast you Rune Strike, and it can be banked on so you can squeeze out a DS even when you are most rune starved. About sharing GCD with other spells, Blood has a lot of free time anyway with the 1 sec GCD, might as be filled with BT. Also looking at Runic Conversion and Lichborn, it could also fix the situation of having to sacrifice DS for other spells (the obvious "dilemma" here is that Conversion can be used whenever but is weaker than Lichborn due to not regenerating runes, however Lichborn is on a longer cooldown, thus a meaningful choice).
    The sky might not be falling yet (I was truely excited to see new BT, bankable death runes and no RNG yay!).
    Last edited by ugeowhopwr; 2012-07-27 at 02:13 PM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugeowhopwr View Post
    Thanks for the positive feedback. For numbers, I think on beta currently Rune Strike costs 20 RP, which needs to be kept the same for our new DS or it unbalances BT/RE/RC. This would make the new DS much more spammable (considering Blood gets a free 20% faster rune refresh, new SoB giving RP for autoattacks, Horn of Winter etc.) which means the healing and damage needs to be tuned down to counter balance. In this case, Rune Strike damage needs to go up so it comes to the current levels of DS (330% weapon damage as in Cata right now).

    So all in all, more spammable, smaller heals to smooth out the spikyness (although spikyness cannot be fully avoided for Blood because their active mitigation repairs the damage rather than preventing the damage), no need to bank on runes or game the RE, new DS shares resources with other mitigation tools such as DRW, DC healing through Lichborn and Runic Conversion talent, and is freed from threat-generating resources (runes).
    I would actually like this save for one change: our survivability cds should never cost us mitigation resources that being said, DRW would need to cost runes instead of rp if death strike were to become our new rp dump. As for lb and conversion, they would become useless talents as no one in their right mind would trade a death strike heal/shield for less healing in the form of the aforementioned abilities.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-27 at 10:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ugeowhopwr View Post
    I am just theorizing here (not even theorycrafting! ), but shouldn't the new Blood Tap fix most problems? It basically changes the current BT from a static cooldown to a cooldown based on how fast you Rune Strike, and it can be banked on so you can squeeze out a DS even when you are most rune starved. Also looking at Runic Conversion and Lichborn, it could also fix the situation of having to sacrifice DS for other spells (the obvious "dilemma" here is that Conversion can be used whenever but is weaker than Lichborn due to not regenerating runes, however Lichborn is on a longer cooldown, thus a meaningful choice).
    The sky might not be falling yet (I was truely excited to see new BT, bankable death runes and no RNG yay!).
    The new BT triggers a 1 second gcd per 5 charges consumed thereby taking 2 gcds to yield 2 death runes for death strikes. The gcd pretty much killed bt.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugeowhopwr View Post
    I am just theorizing here (not even theorycrafting! ), but shouldn't the new Blood Tap fix most problems? It basically changes the current BT from a static cooldown to a cooldown based on how fast you Rune Strike, and it can be banked on so you can squeeze out a DS even when you are most rune starved. Also looking at Runic Conversion and Lichborn, it could also fix the situation of having to sacrifice DS for other spells (the obvious "dilemma" here is that Conversion can be used whenever but is weaker than Lichborn due to not regenerating runes, however Lichborn is on a longer cooldown, thus a meaningful choice).
    The sky might not be falling yet (I was truely excited to see new BT, bankable death runes and no RNG yay!).
    The new blood tap was good, indeed, but they added the spell to the GCD. Basically, it means that if you want to use those 10 charges to get two death runes, you'll have to spend 2 gcds before being able to death strike. This is too slow.

    Besides, it still won't come close to what old BT + RE gave us, especially if you consider the BT glitch that gave you a free DS every 30 sec + made RE gaming easier.

    Also looking at Runic Conversion and Lichborn
    Purgatory / Death pact are better, IMO.

    Lichborne is great, mind you, but doesn't come close to the wonder purgatory is. The latter is amazing since it will only proc when you need it. Is it automatic and will never fail to do it's job. (Saving you for at least 3 sec, more if you manage to heal the damage back)

    Conversion just goes against how blood dks are working. You are going to sacrifice all that runic power in order to get a little bit of healing that could have been used to proc RE/RC/whatever and give you more death strike. Death pact will give you 50% of your health instantly. Under vampiric blood, this is a LOT of health.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    I would actually like this save for one change: our survivability cds should never cost us mitigation resources that being said, DRW would need to cost runes instead of rp if death strike were to become our new rp dump. As for lb and conversion, they would become useless talents as no one in their right mind would trade a death strike heal/shield for less healing in the form of the aforementioned abilities.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-27 at 10:13 AM ----------



    The new BT triggers a 1 second gcd per 5 charges consumed thereby taking 2 gcds to yield 2 death runes for death strikes. The gcd pretty much killed bt.
    Firstly, considering other classes have to choose between different types of mitigation (Shield Block vs Shield Barrier, Savage Defense vs Frenzied Regeneration, SoR vs WoG/EFlame, Guard vs Purifying Bew), I don't see it as unreasonable for DKs to have this choice.

    Secondly, 2 GCD is only the worst worst scenario of being completely rune starved, which a good player shouldn't be that often. So mostly it means 1 GCD for a BT, followed by a DS (since you get a death rune, BT could refresh a blood rune and still allow a DS).

    Conversion just goes against how blood dks are working. You are going to sacrifice all that runic power in order to get a little bit of healing that could have been used to proc RE/RC/whatever and give you more death strike. Death pact will give you 50% of your health instantly. Under vampiric blood, this is a LOT of health.
    Conversion is meant for when you spent those runes for other spells than DS, and need some healing RIGHT NOW! Death Pact has an enormous cooldown together with ghoul, although it certainly is mighty, almost fully healing you with glyphed Vamp Blood.
    Last edited by ugeowhopwr; 2012-07-27 at 02:31 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    I would actually like this save for one change: our survivability cds should never cost us mitigation resources that being said, DRW would need to cost runes instead of rp if death strike were to become our new rp dump. As for lb and conversion, they would become useless talents as no one in their right mind would trade a death strike heal/shield for less healing in the form of the aforementioned abilities.
    You could only Death Strike at most once/second, so any time you are gaining more than 20 RP/sec, you could use Conversion together with Death Striking.

    Conversion might be a bad choice indeed, but Death Siphon in the same tier might on the other hand be a really good thing to pick up since you'll get quite some Death Runes from your Rune Strikes through Rites of Blood.

    Lichborn would indeed be really useless.

    DRW could be changed to cost 1 blood or death rune. which is dirt cheap though
    Last edited by yehyehyehyeh; 2012-07-27 at 02:35 PM.

  18. #58
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    Double post, see below please.
    Last edited by Asheriah; 2012-07-27 at 02:35 PM.

  19. #59
    Conversion might be a bad choice indeed, but Death Siphon in the same tier might on the other hand be a really good thing to pick up since you'll get quite some Death Runes from your Rune Strikes through Rites of Blood.
    I think you raised an interesting point there, which means Death Siphon could smooth out self healing combined with Blood Rites, so you can eg. use more BB or HS without completely sacrificing mitigation.

    How could such a thing happen ? Please explain to me. You will always use these F/U as pairs,
    By gaming blood runes? Yea you are right I forgot about that.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugeowhopwr View Post
    2 GCD is only the worst worst scenario of being completely rune starved, which a good player shouldn't be that often. So mostly it means 1 GCD for a BT, followed by a DS.
    How could such a thing happen ? Please explain to me. You will always use these F/U as pairs, there is no way to get a single F/U or even death rune, except if you play with RE. (Which you can't, since you're using blood tap ...) Basically, if you want a death strike on demand, you will always have to use BT twice in a row.

    What happened with old blood tap is that you could trigger a glitch (never knew if that was a glitch or what) that gave you two death runes every 30 sec. (So basically, a death strike on demand) This death rune also last 20 sec, which means that if you game RE (not using blood runes, forcing F or U runes to refresh) you could basically get free death strikes very fast when using rune strike. (since every F or U rune could go with that blood rune transformed into a death rune)

    This combination was very powerful, and the new blood tap (even without being on GCD) isn't as much efficient.

    Conversion is meant for when you spent those runes for other spells than DS, and need some healing RIGHT NOW! Death Pact has an enormous cooldown together with ghoul, although it certainly is mighty, almost fully healing you with glyphed Vamp Blood.
    Conversion isn't immediate healing. In most situations, you'll find out that a DS given by RE/RC will give more survivability (healing + shield) than conversion's hot. You'll want to save this runic power on rune strike.

    Conversion might be a bad choice indeed, but Death Siphon in the same tier might on the other hand be a really good thing to pick up since you'll get quite some Death Runes from your Rune Strikes through Rites of Blood.
    I don't see myself using these death runes for anything else than death strike. Honestly, death syphon doesn't heal for much, and it doesn't proc the blood shield.

    Edit : To give you numbers, at lvl 88, death syphon is healing me for 10k. Death strike with no SoB stack heals me for 17k. I don't think it's such a great ability for tanks, it won't scale very well, even with vengeance.
    Last edited by Asheriah; 2012-07-27 at 02:45 PM.

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