Rsham- Heading into MoP

[Deleted]

You forget that there's two other specs who can also use telluric currents glyph. (who might actually be intended to get mana back from it.)


look at the whole package. The concept isn't that it is supposed to be mana neutral for shamans, but mana neutral FOR RESTO.

An elemental or enhancement shaman will have harder hitting lightning bolts and ergo, return more mana from it, causing it not to be mana neutral. chances are, while not 100% neutral, it will be so close that the benefit is negligable.

Whilst I understand what you mean, Lightning Bolt doesn't benefit Enhance or Elemental any more than Resto. It is a flat % mana now, not based off damage. Its still amazing for Ele and Enha because it means their LBs are mana neutral, and for Ele for example their LBs regen mana, and if they regen mana with no cost then they BECOME mana positive, making you able to spam heal and spam CL more (its currently a required glyph for PvE Ele).

[Protoman]

Whilst I understand what you mean, Lightning Bolt doesn't benefit Enhance or Elemental any more than Resto. It is a flat % mana now, not based off damage. Its still amazing for Ele and Enha because it means their LBs are mana neutral, and for Ele for example their LBs regen mana, and if they regen mana with no cost then they BECOME mana positive, making you able to spam heal and spam CL more (its currently a required glyph for PvE Ele).

Actually, I think it might only benefit Elem and Resto since it returns 2%max mana right? Enh does not get an increased mana pool and LB costs like 7% mana so it just shaves off 2% but still costs 5% (even though we get free LB's thru MW5).....and both Ele and Resto get the same 0.7% increase in mana cause their max mana is different from base mana.

They could easily make TC be mana neutral by saying "returns 7.1%base mana if LB does damage"......and add as much extra mana to that as they want, like "plus 2% max mana" so you actually get a full 2% mana back, or 1%, or whatever they want......the current wording is a little misleading. And I would rather prefer if it gave atleast 1%max mana so it was a decent source of mana regen, even if not at the level of PW:solace's 2%.

But I think its silly that Elem should glyph for this in either PVE or PVP.....if they have mana problems then that needs to be fixed at the root mechanics, like buff the mana gained from Rolling Thunder, and I would expand the talent to include more abilities then LB and CL, like Shocks and LvB, so its more consistent regen procs.....shock are used more often in PVP, and so will LvB with instant procs off FLS, compared to LB which is used carefully cause of interrupts.

[Endus]

But I think its silly that Elem should glyph for this in either PVE or PVP.....if they have mana problems then that needs to be fixed at the root mechanics, like buff the mana gained from Rolling Thunder, and I would expand the talent to include more abilities then LB and CL, like Shocks and LvB, so its more consistent regen procs.....shock are used more often in PVP, and so will LvB with instant procs off FLS, compared to LB which is used carefully cause of interrupts.

It depends on the exact state. I know Elemental players are struggling, but if they're struggling as they did in Tier 11, I'm okay with that. In T12/T13 gear, Elemental regen is ridiculous. The mana drain effects on Yor'sahj's trash can't drain my mana faster than I regen it via AoE. On Yor, I can usually get back up to 50% mana or better by the time the mana orb gets killed (on heroic, where we keep each orb until the next one spawns). And that's without using any regen other than a Thunderstorm after being mana drained to zero.

With higher Mastery levels, Elemental will see more Rolling Thunder procs due to more "free" LBs. So, our regen WILL scale, albeit at a worse rate. Thunderstorm is also a legitimate point to factor in; there may be fights where it's more efficient to NOT glyph UL or TC, and use the movement as periods to phase in Thunderstorm casts for mana regen, with the 5% increased cast time for LB hopefully making up the difference in damage from using a few GCDs on Thunderstorms.

If we're having to pop Thunderstorm constantly or glyph TC just to maintain normal single target rotations past T14, then there's absolutely something wrong. If we need to glyph TC for that intro tier until we gear up slightly more, the way we talented Convection in T11, I'm potentially okay with that.

[Tiberria]

Can someone math out HS vs. GHW under Tidal Waves now that the mana cost of GHW was reduced? manythanks.

Healing Surge with Tidal Waves still beats Greater Healing Wave because you can expect the average HS cast to heal for more than the average GHW cast when you factor in 30% increased output from the 30% crit buff. On top of that, with crit levels where they are at raid testing scaled ilevels, you also average more Resurgence return per Tidal Waves HS than you do per GHW. When you also factor in the increased chance to proc Ancestral Awakening, HS comes out further on top.

All the change did was make GHW and HS cost the same amount of mana. You still should NEVER use GHW over HS unless you don't have Tidal Waves up.

Basically, until GHW is more than 30% stronger than HS in terms of base healing done, HS will always be the spell you should use.



---------- Post added 2012-07-30 at 05:56 PM ----------

Also interested in how the new water shield change has affected our regen. Anyone managed to test it out yet? Is it feeling more comfortable and on par with other healers?

The WS buff only maths out to a 3-5% regen increase, with it closer to 3% at raid testing ilevels. It is a marginal change that is barely noticeable.

[Radux]

Can someone math out HS vs. GHW under Tidal Waves now that the mana cost of GHW was reduced? manythanks.

Assuming T13 levels with ~20k SP we get the following (also assuming ~10% Crit)(also HPS/HPM figures assuming 0 mastery effect [100% health target], 0 haste, and includes the additional healing done by AA):

HPS:
GHW - 24778
HS - 34046
GHW + TW - 35397
HS + TW - 48134

HPM:
GHW - 3.43
HS - 2.77
GHW + TW - 3.43
HS + TW - 4.29


So to recap:
- It's ~37% more HPS to use HS over GHW
- It's ~4% more HPS to use GHW with Tidal Waves over a regular HS
- It's ~36% more HPS to use HS with Tidal Waves over GHW with Tidal Waves

- It's ~24% more HPM to use GHW (regular or under Tidal Waves) than regular HS
- It's ~25% more HPM to use HS under Tidal Waves than GHW (regular or under Tidal Waves)


All in all, you're basically going to be using HS all the time, and never really using GHW - especially given how easy it is to keep a high uptime on Tidal Waves.

[Alhoon]

Thanks for the calculations Radux. Blizzard must have done the same math when determining values for spells, but they're trying really hard to make it all seem like they're just throwing numbers around for the sake of it.

[Radux]

Thanks for the calculations Radux. Blizzard must have done the same math when determining values for spells, but they're trying really hard to make it all seem like they're just throwing numbers around for the sake of it.

Really I'd love to expand my spreadsheet to reflect Haste's contribution, as well as Mastery via differing health pools. Right now I only have SP scaling, Crit scaling (AA can fall over and can die - never mathing that again).

After that, I'd probably look at doing HPS/HPM values for CH/HR.

Unfortunately I haven't had the time to do much elective math since I started my new job, and hate being on a computer once I come home.

[Zues]

Radux <3 was waiting for you to come bring elite maths for us.

[Kesandri]

Have never been one for the numbers much so wont get into that debate now I would rather just share how I 'feel' playing resto atm currently on beta.
The 5 man heroics I have been healing while at first took a small adjustment of playstyle now seem fine in terms of regen, I have tried a variety of setups inc glyphed riptide and not and even TC etc. While all setups for me have worked so far I must add I think its also down to how easy I think the 5 mans are, because of that I really dont think anyone should judge regen and healing on those.

I have also raid tested a couple of the encounters so far and this is where I found the difference. Again trying a few glyph setups I found myself not enjoying the playstyle of healing/regen, not because I no longer enjoy the shaman, I simply feel I am having to work much much harder at my role than other classes (also raid tested on pally and priest so far, both of which I found more comfortable with, the pally more so). I am not someone that takes the easier route (hell I played a shaman for the whole of cata inc t11 ) however once again without going into the maths of it all I felt that the paladin and priest were in a much better position at this time.

I am in full support of the intention to make healers work for mana/healing much more, it will make healing much more enjoyable. Also I am not someone that needs to top HPS meters to make my job feel worthwhile, I simply want to feel like I have contributed in my own way, which atm on testing I do not.
Some could argue maybe the shaman isnt for me anymore or even its a L2P issue, I feel I have played the shaman long enough to make an opinion like I have and as such have wanted to share it.

I am also hopeful that things can still change as we are 7 weeks away from release still, and I will keep checking the beta for any changes.
At present I am not comfortable with how things are and hoping for some small changes, time will tell but I will still be playing my shaman come launch.

(Just a point of note, I dont feel shamans need some drastic overhaul of the class, we just need some small tweaks imo)

[Zues]

"Feeling" is great, but this is more of a thread for those who are trying to min/max for pre nerf hardcore raiding :P

And you can't top numbers with feelings.

[Kesandri]

"Feeling" is great, but this is more of a thread for those who are trying to min/max for pre nerf hardcore raiding :P

And you can't top numbers with feelings.

Ah I see, guess I shall leave the big boys to chat among yourselves. Now I remember why I hardly bother posting on the shaman forums on mmo , ty for reminding me!

PS. Feeling is everything, if you dont feel you are contributing to your raid whats the point in even playing.

[Brom]

The WS buff only maths out to a 3-5% regen increase, with it closer to 3% at raid testing ilevels. It is a marginal change that is barely noticeable.

So mana regen is still an issue comparative to other healers? How bad is it? I completely understand our ability to bring utility to the raid and throughly enjoy playing resto, however I find I will be going elemental if other healers out perform us in terms of utility, throughput and longevity. I feel being a healer is about bringing all of this to a raid and not excelling in one particular field. We should be able to perform our role as a single component of the raid and contribute equally compared to the other raid members.

Currently on beta are we able to do this?

Ah I see, guess I shall leave the big boys to chat among yourselves. Now I remember why I hardly bother posting on the shaman forums on mmo , ty for reminding me!

PS. Feeling is everything, if you dont feel you are contributing to your raid whats the point in even playing.

Don't worry Kesandri I found your post helpful, it is not only about numbers and what it looks like on paper but also how it feels playing the class in a raiding situation. I find this informative and a useful opinion.

[Seriss]

Ah I see, guess I shall leave the big boys to chat among yourselves. Now I remember why I hardly bother posting on the shaman forums on mmo , ty for reminding me!

PS. Feeling is everything, if you dont feel you are contributing to your raid whats the point in even playing.

/hug

I actually think 'feeling' as a healer is very important. It makes a world of a difference how healing 'feels' on different classes. Usually, you can tell that something is wrong by simply going by your gut feeling, even before you look at numbers. I remember how I felt that something was not quite right with shaman already during early WotLK when I logged on my undergeared druid... and when I respecced my shadow priest to holy and just healed after not having healed on my priest for a long time.... and from that moment on I felt that shaman's toolkit was limited in regards to heals and cds/utility. It was then that I started getting interested in theorycrafting, and I didn't like what I was seeing since then. But it all started out with feelings rather than numbers.

[Radux]

I'll definitely join the crowd saying that feel plays a role in how things run. For instance, I really can't stand the way Resto Druids play, so I don't play one. It's not that the numbers don't add up to a potentially great healer. I'm also in the same boat about TC for Shaman. I'm so glad it's not a mandatory thing for mana regen like it was in Cata.

All that said, math and feel both play hand in hand in making a well rounded/balanced class.
GHW, for instance (despite the buff via reduced mana cost) is still worse in every way to HS. That's not a good thing, and it's because of 2 things:
- Tidal Waves for HS really trumps HPS/HPM values compared to GHW
- HS has to be naturally strong now due to it being the only heal for Elemental/Enhancement.

I think it still needs work, and I don't think nerfing HS is the way to do it. It needs to be our big mega heal, not use our fast 'oh shit' heal because of a crutch mechanic.
- Nerf Crit % to HS under TW
- Buff Haste % to GHW under TW
- Buff Base heal amount for GHW
- Buff SP scaling for GHW
- Nerf Resurgence value for HS
- Buff Resurgence value for GHW (which is risky, because it potentially pushes HW to be much more mana neutral - could be bad/against design)

I'm sure there are other ways to make HPS/HPM/Feel of heals be in a better position to the intended design of GHW being... ya know... useful. I mostly just thought of the above in a few seconds as potentially easy tuning knobs.

[Sarevokcz]

I'll definitely join the crowd saying that feel plays a role in how things run. For instance, I really can't stand the way Resto Druids play, so I don't play one. It's not that the numbers don't add up to a potentially great healer. I'm also in the same boat about TC for Shaman. I'm so glad it's not a mandatory thing for mana regen like it was in Cata.

All that said, math and feel both play hand in hand in making a well rounded/balanced class.
GHW, for instance (despite the buff via reduced mana cost) is still worse in every way to HS. That's not a good thing, and it's because of 2 things:
- Tidal Waves for HS really trumps HPS/HPM values compared to GHW
- HS has to be naturally strong now due to it being the only heal for Elemental/Enhancement.

I think it still needs work, and I don't think nerfing HS is the way to do it. It needs to be our big mega heal, not use our fast 'oh shit' heal because of a crutch mechanic.
- Nerf Crit % to HS under TW
- Buff Haste % to GHW under TW
- Buff Base heal amount for GHW
- Buff SP scaling for GHW
- Nerf Resurgence value for HS
- Buff Resurgence value for GHW (which is risky, because it potentially pushes HW to be much more mana neutral - could be bad/against design)

I'm sure there are other ways to make HPS/HPM/Feel of heals be in a better position to the intended design of GHW being... ya know... useful. I mostly just thought of the above in a few seconds as potentially easy tuning knobs.

IMO, Tidal waves needs an overhaul or atleast GHW benefit should be different. For HS, its both HPS and HPM benefit, for GHW its only the former and doesnt even match the HS HPS. I would propose smth like 15% reduced cast and 10% more healing done (or like 15% healing done to give a HoT/shield to the target), so it feels more like the "slower, powerful" heal instead of the "fast, emergency" heal, because thats what GHW is with TW right now.

[thap]

Some quick calculations i just did using 40% mastery, 10% crit 20k sp shows that mastery doesn't really change spell selection in this case, i don't know how to factor haste but i will try later in the week. IMO HS should be higher HPS but lower HPM than GHW, this only happen outside of TW so it should be changed(unless haste changes this but i don't think so).


HS GHW HSTW GHWTW
HPS 100% hp 34046.00 24778.00 48134.00 35397.14
HPM 100% hp 2.77 3.43 4.29 3.43

HPS 80% hp 36769.68 26760.24 51984.72 38228.91
HPM 80% hp 2.99 3.70 4.63 3.70

HPS 60% hp 39493.36 28742.48 55835.44 41060.69
HPM 60% hp 3.21 3.98 4.97 3.98

HPS 0 hp 47664.40 34689.20 67387.60 49556.00
HPM 0 hp 3.88 4.80 6.00 4.80

[shammypie]

did anyone notice that endus has TC as a 10% mana return and not a 2% in the official changes?

[Endus]

did anyone notice that endus has TC as a 10% mana return and not a 2% in the official changes?

It's 2% for Elemental and Resto. The 10% is for Enhancement spec only; http://www.wowdb.com/spells/55453-gl...luric-currents

[Cai]

It's 2% for Elemental and Resto. The 10% is for Enhancement spec only; http://www.wowdb.com/spells/55453-gl...luric-currents

Is the 10% because Enh doesn't get and increased Mana Pool?

[Protoman]

It's 2% for Elemental and Resto. The 10% is for Enhancement spec only; http://www.wowdb.com/spells/55453-gl...luric-currents

Makes sense because Enh max mana and base mana are the same, so 2% for us would only have made LB cost 5% instead of mana positive and return mana.....with this it gives us 3% mana. For Elem/Resto they have more max mana so the 7% base mana LB cost is actually like 1.4% of thier max mana, so after deducting that from 2% they get like .6-.7% mana from a LB.

I still think its odd that Elem should have to glyph for this, shouldn't need a glyph to manage their mana to a normal level......they should get a buff to their base regen by buffing rolling thunder's mana regen, as well as including other sources like LvB and shocks... esp shocks since they use those more in PVP while casted spells like LB not as much cause of interrupts, plus LvB they can get instant casts from so it makes it easier to get those off in PVP then a LB, not to mention faster cast time. This dependency only on LB for mana regen is prob why they are struggling with mana in PVP......and Thunderstorm, even with a shorter CD, can't be depended on for mana cause you can't use it on CD but rather only when you actually need it to create a gap and keep melee off you or interrupt a caster.