1. #241
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Carnished Toast
    Posts
    3,219
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMusic View Post
    Hi all

    I was wondering if somebody could help me. I used to play a prot paladin alt awhile back - and tbh quite enjoyed it - but this was a few years and I'm not too sure of the rotation for both single and aoe fights now with all the new changes (not just for MoP).

    Would somebody mind letting me know what the optimum rotations are for each and any other suggestions that might help with tanking? I took a look at the front page - which all seems very helpful, thanks - but I couldn't see anything about rotations etc (apologies if I've missed it somewhere).

    Thanks in advance.
    http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t130602-.../#The_Rotation

    I usually try to use up 3 HP as soon as I can, because each SotR you use contributes to your survival. I rarely go to 5 HP - the only time I'd do it if I am in a phase where I'm not taking damage (for example, boss is powering up a spell, fixating on party member, air phase, etc), then I might go up to 5 holypower so that I have more frequent access to SotR.
    Last edited by Fhi; 2012-09-11 at 01:45 AM.

    Paladin and D3 Moderator | MMO-C Guidelines | Signature and avatar art by Dancing Hare

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Corylyn View Post
    http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t130602-.../#The_Rotation

    I usually try to use up 3 HP as soon as I can, because each SotR you use contributes to your survival. I rarely go to 5 HP - the only time I'd do it if I am in a phase where I'm not taking damage (for example, boss is powering up a spell, fixating on party member, air phase, etc), then I might go up to 5 holypower so that I have more frequent access to SotR.
    I would recommend trying to use SotR at 5 HoPo as much as possible, because always having at least a 2 HoPo WoG in the pipe is the entire reason 5 HoPo cap is good in the first place.

  3. #243
    Got to the "Stat priority" section and cried a lil. I guess it is viable for low level gear where maybe we won't be able to hit/exp cap. If we can hit/exp cap then it will be mandatory to do so. With SotR being basicly a ~60% damage reduction, then making sure your HP is screaming in as fast as you can get it is absolutely amazing. That is why I will be prioritizing stats as follows: Hit 7.5%=Exp 7.5%>Haste>Mastery>Parry>Dodge.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceronys View Post
    That is why I will be prioritizing stats as follows: Hit 7.5%=Exp 7.5%>Haste>Mastery>Parry>Dodge.
    Why would you want Haste at all? It's contribution to survival is close to non-existent.

  5. #245
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Carnished Toast
    Posts
    3,219
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Why would you want Haste at all? It's contribution to survival is close to non-existent.
    Look up Sanctity of Battle.

    Paladin and D3 Moderator | MMO-C Guidelines | Signature and avatar art by Dancing Hare

  6. #246
    Over 9000! MerinPally's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Chemistry block.
    Posts
    9,170
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceronys View Post
    Got to the "Stat priority" section and cried a lil. I guess it is viable for low level gear where maybe we won't be able to hit/exp cap. If we can hit/exp cap then it will be mandatory to do so. With SotR being basicly a ~60% damage reduction, then making sure your HP is screaming in as fast as you can get it is absolutely amazing. That is why I will be prioritizing stats as follows: Hit 7.5%=Exp 7.5%>Haste>Mastery>Parry>Dodge.
    Your priority and ideas may hold for T16 but not for T14. Why go for something that might only be useful (and it's questionable if it will be then as well) in over a years time rather than something that will be in a month?

    Would be stupid to write a guide to plan/aim for that far in the future. When we get there, sure, but are you suggesting that your stat priority makes sense for T14? When we get to T16 then sure this will be updated, but for T14 your list doesn't really make an awful lot of sense considering the stat weights and the kind of numbers we are looking at.

    Also, could you maybe not tell me that you cried a bit reading it. Considering the effort put into this by multiple people, it's rather annoying reading a response like that - all for constructive criticism but it just comes across as arsey. I was holding my baby dwarf hamster when I read it and his brain almost got pushed out of his little ears as I almost squeezed him.

    http://i.imgur.com/c2rGo.jpg

    Click that link. Do it. Noone wants to see Russell hurt Oh god he's so cute. I let him run around on my keyboard sometimes when raiding as he dodges my fingers and he crawls up my arm
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2012-09-11 at 03:06 PM.

  7. #247
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Carnished Toast
    Posts
    3,219
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post

    http://i.imgur.com/c2rGo.jpg

    Click that link. Do it. Noone wants to see Russell hurt Oh god he's so cute.
    You totally need to put him on a piano.

    Paladin and D3 Moderator | MMO-C Guidelines | Signature and avatar art by Dancing Hare

  8. #248
    Over 9000! MerinPally's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Chemistry block.
    Posts
    9,170
    Quote Originally Posted by Corylyn View Post
    You totally need to put him on a piano.
    I don't think he weighs enough to push the keys down but I'll give it a go, we have an electronic keyboard with lighter keys. Give me 10 minutes. Failing that I'll arrange my textbooks and let him climb up and down them and inevitably fall off.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post

    http://i.imgur.com/c2rGo.jpg

    Click that link. Do it. Noone wants to see Russell hurt Oh god he's so cute. I let him run around on my keyboard sometimes when raiding as he dodges my fingers and he crawls up my arm
    Lmao so cute!

    Quote Originally Posted by Corylyn View Post
    You totally need to put him on a piano.
    One of my raiding friend did it with her cat to stay undisturbed while she's busy. Cute but not the best idea musically speaking.

    And the piano name was unintended!

    http://i.imgur.com/XUySn.jpg

    ***

    Anyway good guide, I did used some parts and translated it for a friend of mine coming back for pandaria, as I'll probably won't have enough time to teach him myself. Your solid work will do the job, thx!
    When I go to a carnival and drop 5 bucks on a -game- I don't bitch because I didn't win the biggest stuffed bear.
    Roahn the warlock, 13/08/2012
    One of the smartest ways of telling people who QQ about "special stuff" to STFU.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Corylyn View Post
    http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t130602-.../#The_Rotation

    I usually try to use up 3 HP as soon as I can, because each SotR you use contributes to your survival. I rarely go to 5 HP - the only time I'd do it if I am in a phase where I'm not taking damage (for example, boss is powering up a spell, fixating on party member, air phase, etc), then I might go up to 5 holypower so that I have more frequent access to SotR.
    Thanks to you and Underdogba for the responses; I'll have a read up

  11. #251
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Carnished Toast
    Posts
    3,219
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    I don't think he weighs enough to push the keys down but I'll give it a go, we have an electronic keyboard with lighter keys. Give me 10 minutes. Failing that I'll arrange my textbooks and let him climb up and down them and inevitably fall off.
    Actually I was thinking more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDMNHvnIxic

    Okay, time to stop derailing thread. >.>

    Paladin and D3 Moderator | MMO-C Guidelines | Signature and avatar art by Dancing Hare

  12. #252
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    The Temple of the Winds
    Posts
    667
    Going back to:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceronys View Post
    Got to the "Stat priority" section and cried a lil. I guess it is viable for low level gear where maybe we won't be able to hit/exp cap. If we can hit/exp cap then it will be mandatory to do so. With SotR being basicly a ~60% damage reduction, then making sure your HP is screaming in as fast as you can get it is absolutely amazing. That is why I will be prioritizing stats as follows: Hit 7.5%=Exp 7.5%>Haste>Mastery>Parry>Dodge.
    I think it's worthwhile to point out that, at least for us tanks, expertise softcap is no longer releveant, and that Exp keeps the same value up to the real cap of 15%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    the average wow player is only a step above eating glue and a step below doing basic addition. Right about being able to operate scissors fairly properly is the sweet spot.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Your priority and ideas may hold for T16 but not for T14. Why go for something that might only be useful (and it's questionable if it will be then as well) in over a years time rather than something that will be in a month?

    Would be stupid to write a guide to plan/aim for that far in the future. When we get there, sure, but are you suggesting that your stat priority makes sense for T14? When we get to T16 then sure this will be updated, but for T14 your list doesn't really make an awful lot of sense considering the stat weights and the kind of numbers we are looking at.

    Also, could you maybe not tell me that you cried a bit reading it. Considering the effort put into this by multiple people, it's rather annoying reading a response like that - all for constructive criticism but it just comes across as arsey.
    I apologize for hurting your lil rats feelings. I know that guides take a lot of work. On that note. If we follow your direction of T14 then shouldn't it be stamina>more stamina>most stamina>omfg give me some more stamina, just like previous xpacs, where we are so undergeared that giving the healers a cushion is our main concern until we get some gears?

    Why do you say that my priority theory is not viable in T14? Will not be able to get enough haste to make haste>avoidance/mitigation? I can see your argument with that but prioritizing hit/exp last? Do you think 15% will be really that hard to attain when heading into H-T14?

  14. #254
    Over 9000! MerinPally's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Chemistry block.
    Posts
    9,170
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceronys View Post
    On that note. If we follow your direction of T14 then shouldn't it be stamina>more stamina>most stamina>omfg give me some more stamina, just like previous xpacs, where we are so undergeared that giving the healers a cushion is our main concern until we get some gears?
    No not at all. Stamina doesn't reduce the amount of incoming damage and it's more effective to reduce it rather than sponge it all. Essentially, you're going to need enough health to survive a few unmitigated hits and that's all. As Ayashi brought up earlier in the thread, the way to look at that would be "what's the time delay between 2 Shield of the Righteous?" to get your answer. Now, being hit/exp capped is going to decrease that time therefore lowering the amount of stamina required, but gear (and enchants/gems) are laden with hit and expertise - we are going to get quite a lot passively through gear, so our holy power generation will be pretty fast. Sure it could be faster but it's not going to be slow exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceronys
    Why do you say that my priority theory is not viable in T14? Will not be able to get enough haste to make haste>avoidance/mitigation? I can see your argument with that but prioritizing hit/exp last? Do you think 15% will be really that hard to attain when heading into H-T14?
    Getting hit and expertise capped I don't see as an issue at all, especially considering the array of enchants and gems we get to help that sort of thing. I think your problem would be that the amount of haste you're going to get is going to be far small than what you would in terms of Mastery and Parry and Dodge and those 3 stats provide a greater survival benefit than haste does.

    To write a stat priority which we can stick to, to the letter, is incredibly difficult because half of it is so subjective it's unreal - do you feel you have enough SHOTR uptime? Do you feel more hit/exp would help that? Do you feel that you could live with less? Do you feel you need more stamina? Do you feel your damage is too spiky and therefore need more mastery? Do you feel it's smooth but too high so need avoidance?

    It's incredibly difficult and the stat priority I've given was based on the stat weights provided by Theck, so it's hard to get any more technical than that. As stated multiple times in this thread (and in the post I think) that the maths says one thing but we may discover that another priority actually does a better job than what the maths would suggest.


    Back on topic: Another picture of Russell, proving he's not a rat and is infact a baby Chinese Dwarf Hamster.

    http://i.imgur.com/fvV9C.jpg

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by ayashi View Post
    Going back to:


    I think it's worthwhile to point out that, at least for us tanks, expertise softcap is no longer releveant, and that Exp keeps the same value up to the real cap of 15%.
    Didn't hit and expertise give us spellhit? Wouldn't then the expertise beyond the softcap be worth less if we had the melee hitcap, as it would no further improve our hitchance with spells?

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Didn't hit and expertise give us spellhit? Wouldn't then the expertise beyond the softcap be worth less if we had the melee hitcap, as it would no further improve our hitchance with spells?
    No. Spellhit is irrelevant to HoPo generation, which is the mechanism by which landing attacks has causal consequences to any kind of damage reduction metric.

    CS / HotR can resolve to a miss, dodge, or parry and those combat table resolutions are reduced by both hit and expertise (expertise is equal up to hardcap because the amt of parry per point after 7.5% is identical to dodge per pt below 7.5%)

    Judgment can resolve to a miss and is only affected by physical hit

    Grand Crusader is granted on-cast, so the resolution of the Avenger's is irrelevant, it's merely that the frequency of proc is proportional to CS hitting (which is physical hit and expertise).

    In general, expertise is less valuable than hit below cap because it does not affect Judgment. Expertise contributes the same to CS and the GC proc frequency all the way to parry hardcap.
    Last edited by underdogba; 2012-09-12 at 09:43 PM.

  17. #257
    Over 9000! MerinPally's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Chemistry block.
    Posts
    9,170
    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba View Post
    In general, expertise is less valuable than hit below cap because it does not affect Judgment. Expertise contributes the same to CS and the GC proc frequency all the way to parry hardcap.
    Hence why it is Hit > Expertise in terms of stat weights and as written on my guide and the other ones you'll find laying about ^^

    Anyway - today the Divine Purpose nerf is now official and it doesn't proc off a proc, will only go once. This sucks.

  18. #258
    Brewmaster rawhammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Solihull, UK
    Posts
    1,412
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Hence why it is Hit > Expertise in terms of stat weights and as written on my guide and the other ones you'll find laying about ^^

    Anyway - today the Divine Purpose nerf is now official and it doesn't proc off a proc, will only go once. This sucks.
    Whilst nerf to DP does indeed suck - im not that upset about it, playing around with that tier and just sticking with HA for the nice burst.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-13 at 11:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba View Post
    No. Spellhit is irrelevant to HoPo generation, which is the mechanism by which landing attacks has causal consequences to any kind of damage reduction metric.

    CS / HotR can resolve to a miss, dodge, or parry and those combat table resolutions are reduced by both hit and expertise (expertise is equal up to hardcap because the amt of parry per point after 7.5% is identical to dodge per pt below 7.5%)

    Judgment can resolve to a miss and is only affected by physical hit

    Grand Crusader is granted on-cast, so the resolution of the Avenger's is irrelevant, it's merely that the frequency of proc is proportional to CS hitting (which is physical hit and expertise).

    In general, expertise is less valuable than hit below cap because it does not affect Judgment. Expertise contributes the same to CS and the GC proc frequency all the way to parry hardcap.
    can someone explain the bold italics bti please. i was under the impression that the value of expertise halves after soft cap of 7.5% as dodge is no longer a consideration and it now only removes an element of parry. bit confused.
    Last edited by rawhammer; 2012-09-13 at 10:28 AM.

  19. #259
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Not nearly out of the way enough
    Posts
    4,581
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Anyway - today the Divine Purpose nerf is now official and it doesn't proc off a proc, will only go once. This sucks.
    Incorrect. I just had five procs in a row. Or it's possible I don't have the hotfix as of yet (which would make me sad).

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-13 at 09:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    can someone explain the bold italics bti please. i was under the impression that the value of expertise halves after soft cap of 7.5% as dodge is no longer a consideration and it now only removes an element of parry. bit confused.
    The importance of expertise is directly linked to our generation of Holy Power (i.e. making sure the abilities that generate HP land). We don't have any HP generating abilities that rely on spell hit, so that half of the expertise equation doesn't get considered.

  20. #260
    Brewmaster rawhammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Solihull, UK
    Posts
    1,412
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Incorrect. I just had five procs in a row. Or it's possible I don't have the hotfix as of yet (which would make me sad).

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-13 at 09:15 AM ----------



    The importance of expertise is directly linked to our generation of Holy Power (i.e. making sure the abilities that generate HP land). We don't have any HP generating abilities that rely on spell hit, so that half of the expertise equation doesn't get considered.
    Thanks for response -i understand this.

    However, what i was referring to in the bit i quoted from underdogba implied that the value of getting more expertise before and after the soft cap of 7.5% was the same. my understanding was that it wasnt, as pre soft cap expertise removed both dodge and parry , whilst after the soft cap it just removes parry (hence was half as valuable).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •