[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Nairobi]

Comparing at 50% haste and 30% avoidance, it is a netgain when you recieve an attack about every 1.4 seconds give or take.

At 3 mobs at the same values it is a gain of 4.08 HoPo per minute, or 60% gain from GC.

At 10 mobs it is a gain 19.2 HoPo per minute or an increase of 114% from previously. 30% avoidance of course.

How high avoidance values can we get if we go for more avoidance? Anyone knows?

Just checking math:

12% every 3 sec, so 2.4ppm for current procs (while tanking or OT) on one target. PLUS innate avoidance proc chance (Let's go with 2sec swing @ 35% avoidance): 30 * .35 * .12 = 1.26 PPM. Total current PPM = 3.66

30% of (let's call it 10+25% avoidance) means we'd need to get hit 34.9x per minute to equal the current rates; so once every 1.5 sec. So 1.4 sec swing seems right to be a net gain.

Now, we COULD stack some avoidance to get more proc's but you're looking at ~4ppm here. FOUR. One HoPo every 15 seconds. Raising avoidance to 50% total would bring us up to ~6ppm. So, pick up 15% avoidance (which, with DRs is paramount to ~20-25% haste), for an extra 2ppm. Of course, these numbers are ST, MT values would be linear extrapolation though.

3 targets should yield ~12 PPM in current gear, up to 18ppm in full avoidance. 5 targets @ 20ppm/30ppm. Etc.

Anyhow, this is the change that I'm the least pissed off about. It really sucks for times that we have to offtank (zero procs), but we make up in spades on AOE packs.

Still really confused about the BH change, given the fact that monks retain statue shields (shields ALWAYS > healing) and DK worms (as unreliable as they are).

And still baffled at the SOI change without and recompense. I'm still holding on for a blue post on that, GbtL HAS to be buffed substantially, else the spec simply will not function.

[Deleted]

Okay, so here is the plan. Stack avoidance (primarly dodge), gem enough haste so that you can reach 100% sotr uptime (13% haste mathematically, but lets go for 20% for safety and having time to cast L90 talent + SS and hands).

Go only for AS hit cap, dont bother anything else, so basically almost only stack dodge+parry pieces with a dodge>haste 20%>parry>hit>haste>exp prio.

Use to following trinket
Delicate Vial of the Sanguinaire

Before each boss, just pull as much trash that do not pose any harm to the raid (a.k.a. only melees you) to the boss.
You are now sitting with 50+% avoidance, 100% SotR uptime and for every proc of the trinket you get 18.8% increased phys damage reduction on that SotR that had 100% uptime. If you get 100% uptime on the trinket, which I say would require you to have about 10 mobs on you, you will be sitting at mastery cap at 75% damage reduction on SotR and about 85% block chance for those attacks you dont dodge or parry. You will be completely invurnable and can pull alot of trash in SoO to sit permanently at vengeance cap dealing damage way above 600k single target on the boss without risk of death

This seems completely legit, I like this change already. Never seen any change encourage abuse of game mechanics as much as this and it is going to be completely broken.

As I mentioned in some other thread, imagine a boss like megaera. Just pull all those shale spiders before meagera. You would have enough spiders to give you GC proc on every global. All spiders would give you about 300k vengeance only from the spiders. So you could do megaera with 300k vengeance perma spamming focused shield AS, sitting at 75% damage reduction on SotR 100% uptime, 50% avoidance and 80% block. Seems completely legit, you would not take any damage at all, and do probably 400-500k dps on megaera.

I foresee the amount of threads it is going to be on forums with paladins being OP (with all right), the amount of shitstorm that will appear when a paladin first abuses this publically on any SoO boss and the amount of raging warrior tanks going to be mad.

[Promdates]

Well my monks looking like a pretty good takn to play again in 5.4.... Thanks blizzard

I've already started re-gearing from ToT items. I wonder how bad those nerfs are going to be to be honest.

[pld]

I've already started re-gearing from ToT items. I wonder how bad those nerfs are going to be to be honest.

What's your re-gearing strategy? The formula firefly has up in his post?

Stack dodge+parry pieces with a dodge>haste 20%>parry>hit>haste>exp prio.

[Deleted]

Imo no way that makes it live. It is just not possible. It would just be broken.

The nerfs are not really that big.

SoI - No way it makes live
BH - Well, we got higher raid healing now if we actually glyph it, so it can also be seen as a buff on some fights
GC - Its a buff for abusing encounters

My gearing strategy would just be, keep on going as you are doing right now. Start picking up some dodge/parry pieces in your bags for those fights where you can get a lot of mobs on you.

Going for dodge>haste 20%>parry>hit>haste>exp would not make much sense on single target fights, same priority as now is still the best.
What is important to understand is that these changes so far do not really affect our current stat prio at all. The only thing it does is make dodge/parry completely broken on multitarget fights, and encourages you to even pull trash mobs to the boss if possible. So keeping a few dodge/parry pieces in the bags for those fights could be a good idea.

[Nairobi]

I've already started re-gearing from ToT items. I wonder how bad those nerfs are going to be to be honest.

I'll likely burn some coins on shit gear this week "just in case". I've got 4pc HC tokens sitting in my bank, but pretty much need EVERYTHING else.

So fucking pissed.

I love my BrM, and would totally swap to him, except we have a BrM tank already. I could play my DK, but....it's a DK. Warrior and druid both at 90, but shit geared (though, Prot and Vanq tokens are going to vendor-spec, now).

I really want to see a blue post on the SOI changes, as that's the only REAL "spec-killer" that we've got. The other 2 are just "spec-kick-in-the-nuts" changes.

[Deleted]

Guys, the sky is not falling, unless the SoI change stick. The only thing that really changed is that we got a way to totally abuse multi-target fights to be even stronger than before. To be honest I see this as a massive buff if you disregard the SoI change and I just cant see that making it live.

The only thing I can complain about is how they are making our class more boring while buffing us. Using 2 buttons (as+SotR) isn ot really fun. Really, paladin mechanics was in a sweetspot, it was perfect. The only thing I was unhappy about was consecration not scaling with haste and LH/ES/SS GCDs not scaling with haste, if they had fixed those things, paladin would have been absolutely perfect. They really did not need to mess around with our mechanics.

[pld]

Guys, the sky is not falling, unless the SoI change stick. The only thing that really changed is that we got a way to totally abuse multi-target fights to be even stronger than before. To be honest I see this as a massive buff if you disregard the SoI change and I just cant see that making it live.

After seeing your posts here and in the other Prot changes thread, I would agree....it's just that damn SoI change.

Since all our tokens have been going to off-spec for some time...maybe I'll pick up prot 4-piece.

[Promdates]

What's your re-gearing strategy? The formula firefly has up in his post?

Stack dodge+parry pieces with a dodge>haste 20%>parry>hit>haste>exp prio.

Oh no, I meant gearing up my Monk. I'm already pretty close to full BiS haste gear for 25H minus Animus and Ra-den on my paladin. I have 4 level 90 tanks, and 2 of them are 530+, the others are lagging behind though cause forget warriors/druids :P

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I love my BrM, and would totally swap to him, except we have a BrM tank already. I could play my DK, but....it's a DK. Warrior and druid both at 90, but shit geared (though, Prot and Vanq tokens are going to vendor-spec, now).

We have me with Paladin/Monk, we have a Holy/Prot Paladin and we have a DK/Paladin tank, we also have 2-3 dps warriors with 530ish+ tank gear "just in case". So we could totally swap around tanks if we needed depending on the fight makeups/mechanics. OH THE JOYS OF 25 MANS.

[Nairobi]

We have me with Paladin/Monk, we have a Holy/Prot Paladin and we have a DK/Paladin tank, we also have 2-3 dps warriors with 530ish+ tank gear "just in case". So we could totally swap around tanks if we needed depending on the fight makeups/mechanics. OH THE JOYS OF 25 MANS.

How's the weather up there, on your high horse?

I wish we could go back to 25m, but given how shit our realm is, we'd probably regress to ~7-9/13 unless we poached HARD. The other 2 raiding guilds on our server (yes, we have a total of 3 real guilds. Probably a lot in normal modes or 1-2/13HC, but that's basically a PUG, no offense) are 25m and stuck at 11/13 still.

What I wouldn't give for the loot perks, massive raid CDs, rolling banners, symbiosis/stamp, etc. We have ZERO druids/warriors in our 10 lulz. We dropped from 25m a few weeks prior to 5.2 release and went from 5/16 to 15/16 in those few weeks, and now hold server first by a mile, so it's not all bad though!

I'm personally thinking that IF (and it's a big IF) the sky does fall with these nerfs sticking, I'll dust off my warrior. Since 2x monk wouldn't really play well, the extra raid util from Protwar is amazing. Druid would be a close second, but I'd be fighting a lot more for loot with our rog/monk, and we'd waste all that "precious" D/P loot they keep shoving down our throats.

[Promdates]

I'll probably still go back to the Monk, as it will give us a more rounded core of tank options. I really hope some of the changes don't go through though, cause it's rather dumb.

On the SoI mana nerf, I've used SoT in raids a bit, just cause why not, and never found myself running OOM as some of you are saying is happening.

[Deleted]

The last raid I used SoT in was on Gara'Jal heroic. I started the fight with SoT on and when I was sent into the other realm, I was always on 10% mana, I then used the realm + the beginning of getting back up to regain mana by swapping to SoI while running from the first to the second Spirit. I swapped to SoT again whenever I had a free global once I had full mana and was back up. If I did not do those seal twists between the realms I would for sure have been oom.

I just dont see any possible way you are not going oom doing your rotation without SoI. It simply should not be possible. At 0% haste, fine it may take a few minutes, but you will be oom before the fight is over.

[Deleted]

well in 25mans there are prob a lot more mana tide totems flying around....

anyhoo I really cant see them not buffing our base mana regen to compensate for the SoI change - it would be very retarded if we went oom....holy power is our resource management NOT mana.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

When we were progressing on Lei Shen I had SoT on for the first phase and barely made it through without going OOM. Admittedly I was playing extremely offensively but I was, to all intents and purposes OOM by the end of the phase.

Honestly, I think they completely forgot that prot uses SoI and simply wanted to stop holy paladins standing in melee range to regen mana. At least, that's what I hope.

[rhandric]

The simple solution would be to have Sanctity of Battle also increase mana regen, similar to how all casters gain mana regen with haste. But, until we see that (or a similar change) made, I'm not holding my breath.

[Nairobi]

The simple solution would be to have Sanctity of Battle also increase mana regen, similar to how all casters gain mana regen with haste. But, until we see that (or a similar change) made, I'm not holding my breath.

Problem with that is that we'd see a net increase to MPS for Ret, as well as Prot which would inevitably lead to PVP ramifications (IE OMG that ret is spamming heals!).

Safer bet is to simply have it on GbtL for spec differentiation (since ret doesn't have the OOM problem).

But, I fear the worst: The return of Sanctuary Mana back on dodge/parry as the "fix".

[rhandric]

Problem with that is that we'd see a net increase to MPS for Ret, as well as Prot which would inevitably lead to PVP ramifications (IE OMG that ret is spamming heals!).

Safer bet is to simply have it on GbtL for spec differentiation (since ret doesn't have the OOM problem).

But, I fear the worst: The return of Sanctuary Mana back on dodge/parry as the "fix".

True, you could put it on GbtL, I just put it on SoB for haste-consistency. But yes, I too fear the return of Sanctuary (and that'd fit Blizzard's MO of trying to make us like D/P)

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Buff GbtL from 6% to 8-10% and we'd have the same mana regen as we do today /shrug.

Or, how about GbtL mana regen scaling with haste?

[xebtria]

if that goes live as it stands.
or if that goes live as it stands plus the return of sanctuary.

... as much as it would hurt my heart, I would skip 5.4 and wait unti 6.0 and see what I might like to play again there.

reason being... i'm progress oriented, but I don't have the time and/or dedication to play in a guild that aims for clearing hc every tier. my guild is currently raiding 10 man and we have just killed jikun hc, which makes us standing at 2/13. I just switched at ToT (after we had like 4 bosses down) from warrior tank to paladin tank. I had a cruel "one sigil of power per weak" streak at my paladin, so I left my warrior, standing at 4/20 of the meta gem quest, and now I am at my paladin with 12/20 so far. aka, it was a fucking rough road to catch up with the quest, since I basically stopped playing my warrior. I don't play my alts much, at least I tend not to raid with them. I just got an upgrade to my 476 shield on my paladin THIS LOCKOUT,

now, if anything like what I started this post with happens, paladin tank will be either amazingly OP or total bullcrap, aka broken like shit. it won't be reliable, and an unreliable tank is a crap tank. which would force me to switch back to my warrior tank once again. I switched in the first place, because warrior was fun, but paladin was more fun. now they are making warrior fun again (with those changes to crit and stuff), and they totally decapitate paladin tanks (as for now, i know it is always subject to change). my warrior is sitting at 503 itemlevel, I would absofuckinglutely make no sense to switch back to him now. I basically can't get an upgrade in LFR for my warrior anymore, so I need gear from normal mode, which I cannot get without raiding normal. I highly doubt that they like to carry me around with another char... the switch to my 495 paladin from my 503 warrior was quite acceptable. a switch again to my still 503 warrior from my now 527 paladin would be a straight slap into the face for my guild. I simply cannot do this. And frankly, I don't want!


so what the serious fuck is this shit? 25 man heroic guilds where you have five+ guys with an tank offspec gear of ~525+ who COULD switch on the fly if needed, they won't be affected as much if they simply kill of paladin tanks. but how many guilds have this luxury? so much guilds, especially casual guilds, raid with a paladin tank, pretty much every casual guild is 10 man nowadays. this is the playerbase blizzard normally cares about. this is the same playerbase, they just hit with the unstoppable force, and there is - for now, that's my last flicker of hope - no immovable object that could possibly make up for this...


inb4 "this is madness - this. is. blizzard." memes.

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oh btw, in that one thread there is a crazy but maybe simple solution.


use int spirit gear. but then again, that would be an expansion level change, not an patch level change. aaaaaaaaaaand it would totally not factor in the dodge parry stuff.

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it might also be a change to stop holy pallys meleeing the boss (did they still do this?).
so prot pallies get a passive back that adds exactly that back to SOI.

... but then they better patch that in the notes and the game. quick.

[celinamuna]

Tbh it's better to keep 5.4 glyphs discussion in the thread for it, so it's all in one place.