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  1. #61
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    As far as I can tell (don't have a level 90), the hammer isn't an object (similar to what a shaman totem would be). It's just a spell effect. So yes, the threat generated from LH's damage and healing should be tied to you.

    Now that I think about it, it doesn't really matter how you use the level 90 talents, they're all threat boosts.
    All 3 are potentially beneficial, same with the Tier 1 and tier 3 - they're all useful talents, and dependent on fight mechanics you can minmax them but they are all going to be good enough to perform the task irrespective of the fight, as long as you alter the playstyle ever so slightly. However, I've heard that changing talents and glyphs on the Beta is as easy and equally expensive as changing glyphs on live, and as a guild we're quite rich so I see certain people just adapting talents rather than playstyle - they might gimp themselves in the process but hey it's there.
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  2. #62
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    All 3 are potentially beneficial, same with the Tier 1 and tier 3 - they're all useful talents, and dependent on fight mechanics you can minmax them but they are all going to be good enough to perform the task irrespective of the fight, as long as you alter the playstyle ever so slightly. However, I've heard that changing talents and glyphs on the Beta is as easy and equally expensive as changing glyphs on live, and as a guild we're quite rich so I see certain people just adapting talents rather than playstyle - they might gimp themselves in the process but hey it's there.
    I've just recently promoted one of my raiders to "Banker" status, and the guild bank swelled 30k in a night. He has a lot of fun playing the AH, apparently. So we should have a decent fund for talent swapping too.

    I'll probably end up taking the talents that I like the most per tier, and adapting my playstyle around that selection. It's what I've tended to do up to this point, so I don't see a reason to change that.

  3. #63
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    I'll probably end up taking the talents that I like the most per tier, and adapting my playstyle around that selection. It's what I've tended to do up to this point, so I don't see a reason to change that.
    Pretty much my plan too. Having different playstyles means more adaptability and makes a better tank, rather than 1 set and just swapping out talents. I'll probably play around learning the different styles in the first normal mode reset then for heroics do the talent swapping really to minmax it, so I always have the option - any good tank should do this to be honest.

    On that note goodnight for today, it's 10:30pm and I've gota get up tomorrow.
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  4. #64
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    I have to agree, those 3 lvl 90 talents are awesome.

    I can totally see myself swapping between the three of them depending on what fight we're on. They did a good job here.

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  5. #65
    Legendary! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Aye, I've gotta say that I wasn't a huge fan of this talent system when they first announced it.... But on both Pallies and Monks (the two classes I plan to focus on), the choices are just so... awesome, it's seeming like I'll be changing my build dependant on the PACK I'm fighting, not just dependant on if I'm in a raid/dungeon/Challenge mode, which I'm guessing it exactly what Blizz was going for

    also Merinpally, I laugh every single time I see your Avatar
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  6. #66
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    also Merinpally, I laugh every single time I see your Avatar
    I always used to use it but then back in late Firelands, someone made a sig and avatar for me after I asked so I swapped. Recently though I thought the red in the avatar was just too... seeing that portrait plastered everywhere was depressing, it needed some brightening up. I still love the sig just the avatar needed an alteration, so I went back to my original one

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    ---------- Post added 2012-07-31 at 07:52 PM ----------

    Updating the "Talents" section to be a summary now, more akin to what the final guide will look like. If requested to I can post my indepth opinions on the talents, but they were similar to my summary that I'm writing now anyway, I'm just making them less personal and more "1 is good for X, 2 is good for Y, 3 is good for Z!"

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-31 at 08:34 PM ----------

    Ok finished updating the talent summary section. Still need a few more suggestions for the spec, then I can draw up a spreadsheet and come with some suggestions before the fight by fight basis thing becomes a possibility!

    Also, Ayashi, if you're reading this, could you clarify how you came up with the 10 extra Holy Power for Sanctified Wrath talent? The others I get but I don't see that one. Thanks
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Also, Ayashi, if you're reading this, could you clarify how you came up with the 10 extra Holy Power for Sanctified Wrath talent? The others I get but I don't see that one. Thanks
    No offense meant to Ayashi, but some of the math on it seems off. Not that I'm any more qualified to do it, but I'll try anyway. Take anything in my post seriously at your own risk.

    Assuming single target, using the CS > J > AS /w GC > X (X being anything else) priority system for the rotation, theres a certain cycle ('bout 13.5 seconds long without haste effects, I think) that repeats itself. (a GC-charged AS can fit into any X below)

    CS, J, X, CS, X, J, CS, X, X

    Once every cycle, J is displaced by CS. As for why I'd put a GC-charged AS behind J in the priority would be because if both are available to use, and you use AS, that J is delayed/displaced. AS is more difficult to delay/displace because (unless you're getting well below that 1 sec gcd minimum somehow) there are always two attacks able to be used between each CS. If J is one of them, AS can be the other. Doing that you still also don't waste any GC procs (except for those times when your opening for using GC is the gcd right after CS, and you hit another button before the game registered that GC procced).

    Also, just in case it's not known, SotR is off the gcd too, not just WoG.

    Aaaaanyway, unless I did something horribly wrong somewhere (which I don't doubt), I'm not seeing a 10 holy power gain over the course of Sanctified Wrath's duration. While SW is up, if J is prioritized over CS instead (which I think/assume is better), compared to the rotation without the cooldown up, I'm seeing only a ~3.6 (or ~5.4 when overlapped with Bloodlust) holy power gain from SW every 3 minutes, because of how much J's lowered cooldown displaces CS, and how much CS would displace J if CS were prioritized.

    Ayashi and I got pretty close to the same number for how much holy power is generated through the normal rotation (assuming hit/exp caps, however this probably isn't gonna happen for us in MoP's first tier) and how much relative extra Divine Purpose gains us over 3 minutes. It'd be 15 as an average, but that's with no haste. With the 10% buff, a little over 16, I think.

    For Holy Avenger, if using the usual priority system (because as far as I can tell, there's no reason to change it during HA), I see about a 13.6 holy power gain from it (or 15.6 with a 10% haste buff, or about 18 if overlapped with Bloodlust). Since the cooldown on HA is 2 minutes, increase the gain proportionately to get 20.4 (or 23.4, or 27 respectively) holy power gain per 3 minutes.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-08-01 at 01:18 AM.

  8. #68
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    I took a closer look at my number and you are absolutely right, Sancti wrathy is not 10HP.
    My reasoning was since J cd was cut in half it would allow a J-> CS -> J -> X (...) cycle which made full use of it. So 30s => 20GCDs => +10 judgement done.
    I totally missed the pushback on CS for ... some reason. Lets say that i blame it as a mental fart...

    Soooo... Sancti wrathy thingy ... totally useless for prot as anything other than a dps cooldown, which with holy avenger being on the same tier makes me question the purpose of this skill... 100% uptime on LAotL for 30s ? Assuming you even have a target in reach that's pretty "meh"

    A quick look at it make it look that inverting J<->CS priority in sancti wrath would actually be a minus one holy power over 30s/20GCD due to less GC procs from less CS used (10J+5CS vs 5J+10CS)... most probably wrong but useless skill is still useless so whatever.

    By the way, i still fully excpet holy avenger to be nerfed to a 3min cooldown

    While i'm at it, on the Exp/hit cap subject ... There is no mastery cap anymore so we will not have an other T11 situation with 0hit/exp block capped tanks. I fully expect that every tank will want to be hit and exp capped as soon as possible.
    Having a 22,5% lesser HP generation on CS (7.5 dodge+7.5parry+7.5miss) and 7.5% on J and GC proc (both are spells so immune to dodge/parry) means an average of ~0.92 holy power per CS and Judgement.
    Compared to 1.2 per CS and 1 per J, that's a pretty huge deal even if we ignore the tank dps issue *cought*mandatory Alabaster Shield glyph reference*cought*. That's something close to 10-15% less overall HP generation !

    Note: testing the J & AS spell-like proprieties regarding hit cap. Is it 7.5 like melee abilities ? or 15% with expertise passively giving us "spell hit" ?

    [hr]

    edit: after half an hour i've seen one Judgement and zero AS miss with 0% miss and 2.1% dodge and 3.0% parry against a 85 dummy.
    As suspected, exp seems to be passively converted to spell hit (even if we lack any such passive in our spell book). Seeing the very low amount of J/As misses i've had with what should have been 5% chance of missing with those spells, i suspect this spells can be "dodged" but not "parried", or maybe something else...
    Regardless, even one J/AS misses when at 0% melee miss rate indicates that J/GC proc HP generation is much lower than 0.925 with 0hit/exp and in turn only aggravates the overall HP generation of such a tank (...i wouldn't be surprised to see a 20% hp generation loss compared to hit/exp capped).
    Last edited by ayashi; 2012-08-01 at 02:53 AM.

  9. #69
    I figured Grand Crusader still granted you a point of holy power regardless of whether the Avenger's Shield hit or not, just whether you use it in time.

    If I remember right, there should be a blue post somewhere stating Judgment was turned strictly and mechanically into a melee attack (it has had such odd mechanics in the past), so I imagine it should be subject to the things other melee attacks are, but I'm not sure, your testing is kind of interesting.
    Edit - Heh, I was totally wrong, that post states it was purely a spell. Forgive me, my memory is rather poor. But now there's a new post stating the opposite, so nevermind.

    And yeah, attacks should need 7.5% hit to be capped, and 7.5% expertise, both of which should be giving spell hit. Expertise also only reduces the dodge chance of a given mob until it reaches zero before it can reduce parry chance.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-08-02 at 09:21 AM.

  10. #70
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Hmmm? 7.5% to cap hit and expertise, not 8%?

    I'll take another swipe at updating this tomorrow and Friday as I'm at the villa all day Friday, I fly back to London on saturday afternoon so come Sunday I'll be able to log into the PTR I guess? I don't have the Beta but maybe it will let me log in. That way I can do some firsthand testing at long last woohoo I will update the original post with the new maths you guys have provided and then I'll attempt to do my own on the plane on the way back with a piece of paper and a pencil then do some testing in practice shortly after (luck permitting)!
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  11. #71
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    The hit/exp caps have been re-made so that a caster hit cap (15% hit) is strictly equal to a melee (7.5hit +7.5exp) when you consider the actual amount of stats on your gear you are allocating to it.
    Normally, melees with spells (: enh shamans, DKs, paladins) should have a exp -> spell hit conversion passive, but i can't find the passive skill on my toon in PTR.
    And my ~30min test on dummy makes me wonder what exactly is going on. 1 single miss for ~800 hits (J+AS) with what should be 2% miss rate is suspect...
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  12. #72
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayashi View Post
    The hit/exp caps have been re-made so that a caster hit cap (15% hit) is strictly equal to a melee (7.5hit +7.5exp) when you consider the actual amount of stats on your gear you are allocating to it.
    Normally, melees with spells (: enh shamans, DKs, paladins) should have a exp -> spell hit conversion passive, but i can't find the passive skill on my toon in PTR.
    And my ~30min test on dummy makes me wonder what exactly is going on. 1 single miss for ~800 hits (J+AS) with what should be 2% miss rate is suspect...
    You won't find that conversion as a passive ability. Expertise grants spell hit now, so if you're both hit and expertise capped, you'll be spell capped.

  13. #73
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    [EDITED] okay i'll stop trying to look into it, every time i forget something basic.
    Elathi is right, EF's hot increasing with HP used makes my whole argument worthless...

    If someone else could make a comparaison between EF' 3HP hot with a 100% uptime with SS with the same 100% uptime, on a lvl 90 character with entry raid gear and full vengeance that might be the best to get a accurate idea of how they compare to each other.

    [edit] just a passing thought on tier 4:
    5 Paladins in a raid can give a permanent 21% physical damage reduction to a Monk tank by rolling hand of purity on him with no loss whatso ever other than the 5GCDs per 30s.
    5 paladins can also roll hand of salvation on any tank and give him a permanent 30% damage reduction with Clemency, at the cost of having that damage being spread out over the raid.
    So... i have this joke about 5 paladins in a raid, i can't remember how it goes, but it ends up taking with taking over the world.
    Last edited by ayashi; 2012-08-02 at 08:12 AM.

  14. #74
    The 5 paladins thing made me laugh. That's awesome. :P

    'Fraid one glaring thing though is that you calculated the hot with only one holy power used. It'd be doubled or tripled in strength with 2 or 3 used respectively. Disregarding the tiny difference from WoG in initial healing, and only considering the comparison of periodic effects over 6 seconds, at 3516 spell power, EF seems to heal about 233 less damage with one HP used than SS shields for. EF gains a significant advantage with 2 or 3 HP used. At level 90, with 3 HP used, I'm not seeing an equality in a purely numerical value over a 6 second period until like ever so slightly over 39650 spell power. If someone with a 90 on the beta could tell me if that's possible to get (or might be possible to get in later tiers) with Vengeance that'd be cool.

    I'm not entirely sure why it's a bad thing that the hot would be clipped some, as long as it's not a large amount of it. Seems as if it'd be better to do so anyway to keep it rolling on you the whole time, rather than let it fall off at any point, the same way I imagine one wouldn't want SS to fall off.

    There is of course the matter that EF costs holy power and SS costs just a gcd, and that EF has a ramp up time at the start of combat that deprives one of a SotR (or could be a very long ramp up if you're not using it right away), whereas SS doesn't. SS also prevents damage, EF just heals it back up.

    But during confirming a few numbers on the PTR, I got confused by something. Is the formula for Vengeance still the same as before (10% of base health + stamina), or is there a detail I forgot or that I'm not aware of?

    My character has 47463 base health and 12736 stamina (was unbuffed both in and out of combat), so I figured max Vengeance would be 17482, correct? But in testing it maxed out at 17064. Thought that maybe it's calculated without base stamina, but even subtracting that it's still a little higher than 17064.

    Edit - Ugh, ok, to recorrect my previous post, they made Judgment a melee attack again.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-08-02 at 06:28 AM.

  15. #75
    I have been on BETA for a month and a half now and have only focused on my Prot Pally.

    Disclaimers - I am level 90. I have done BETA 10m raids. I have done all of the Heroics several times.

    My views on the talents/Glyphs situation is that i am very excited.

    Tier 1 - Pursuit of Justice. This should be your PvE tank choice bottom line. The other 2 do not even come close in my opinion. Permanent 30% run speed buff for the entire fight.... Yes please.

    Tier 2 - This one is a toss up really. If you are short on CC, Repentance. If you are not, then Fist of Justice. Burden of Guilt... PvP.

    Tier 3 - This Tier is hard for me. I personally choose Sacred Shield due to damage prevention, but Eternal Flame is very nice as well. Selfless Healer is a leveling/PvP talent.

    Tier 4 - Unbreakable Spirit. Nothing to say since this is a very easy choice.

    Tier 5 - Holy Avenger is better HoP generation especially being a 2 min CD. I use this as another CD to pop if things get dicey. Pop this, then every other GCD for 15 secs is a 3 HoP WoG. WoG healing is very nice atm (80-100k crits). They other 2 talents are.... bad imo.

    Tier 6 - This is my biggest area of... WTF. I love 2 of them. The third (Holy Prism) cannot compete with the other 2 imo. Light's Hammer is a GREAT puller/AoE damage/heal . I think this is one of the most "fun" (lol engrish) i have had with a spell in a long time. You really can do a lot with it. Execution Sentence is great as well. I like the AoE Healing. I like those 2 a lot, but Light's Hammer wins it for me.

    Glyphs.... is a whole different beast in itself.

    Glyph of Divine Protection.
    Glyph of Alabaster Shield.
    Glyph of Consecration.

    Those are probably the 3 i will use initially for Heroics, then i will switch out consecration for something else when i raid.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Sadal View Post
    I have been on BETA for a month and a half now and have only focused on my Prot Pally.

    Disclaimers - I am level 90. I have done BETA 10m raids. I have done all of the Heroics several times.

    My views on the talents/Glyphs situation is that i am very excited.

    Tier 1 - Pursuit of Justice. This should be your PvE tank choice bottom line. The other 2 do not even come close in my opinion. Permanent 30% run speed buff for the entire fight.... Yes please.

    Tier 2 - This one is a toss up really. If you are short on CC, Repentance. If you are not, then Fist of Justice. Burden of Guilt... PvP.

    Tier 3 - This Tier is hard for me. I personally choose Sacred Shield due to damage prevention, but Eternal Flame is very nice as well. Selfless Healer is a leveling/PvP talent.

    Tier 4 - Unbreakable Spirit. Nothing to say since this is a very easy choice.

    Tier 5 - Holy Avenger is better HoP generation especially being a 2 min CD. I use this as another CD to pop if things get dicey. Pop this, then every other GCD for 15 secs is a 3 HoP WoG. WoG healing is very nice atm (80-100k crits). They other 2 talents are.... bad imo.

    Tier 6 - This is my biggest area of... WTF. I love 2 of them. The third (Holy Prism) cannot compete with the other 2 imo. Light's Hammer is a GREAT puller/AoE damage/heal . I think this is one of the most "fun" (lol engrish) i have had with a spell in a long time. You really can do a lot with it. Execution Sentence is great as well. I like the AoE Healing. I like those 2 a lot, but Light's Hammer wins it for me.

    Glyphs.... is a whole different beast in itself.

    Glyph of Divine Protection.
    Glyph of Alabaster Shield.
    Glyph of Consecration.

    Those are probably the 3 i will use initially for Heroics, then i will switch out consecration for something else when i raid.
    Good info =) Nice to hear from someone whom is 90 on beta!

  17. #77
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sadal View Post
    I have been on BETA for a month and a half now and have only focused on my Prot Pally.

    Disclaimers - I am level 90. I have done BETA 10m raids. I have done all of the Heroics several times.

    My views on the talents/Glyphs situation is that i am very excited.

    Tier 1 - Pursuit of Justice. This should be your PvE tank choice bottom line. The other 2 do not even come close in my opinion. Permanent 30% run speed buff for the entire fight.... Yes please.

    Tier 2 - This one is a toss up really. If you are short on CC, Repentance. If you are not, then Fist of Justice. Burden of Guilt... PvP.

    Tier 3 - This Tier is hard for me. I personally choose Sacred Shield due to damage prevention, but Eternal Flame is very nice as well. Selfless Healer is a leveling/PvP talent.

    Tier 4 - Unbreakable Spirit. Nothing to say since this is a very easy choice.

    Tier 5 - Holy Avenger is better HoP generation especially being a 2 min CD. I use this as another CD to pop if things get dicey. Pop this, then every other GCD for 15 secs is a 3 HoP WoG. WoG healing is very nice atm (80-100k crits). They other 2 talents are.... bad imo.

    Tier 6 - This is my biggest area of... WTF. I love 2 of them. The third (Holy Prism) cannot compete with the other 2 imo. Light's Hammer is a GREAT puller/AoE damage/heal . I think this is one of the most "fun" (lol engrish) i have had with a spell in a long time. You really can do a lot with it. Execution Sentence is great as well. I like the AoE Healing. I like those 2 a lot, but Light's Hammer wins it for me.

    Glyphs.... is a whole different beast in itself.

    Glyph of Divine Protection.
    Glyph of Alabaster Shield.
    Glyph of Consecration.

    Those are probably the 3 i will use initially for Heroics, then i will switch out consecration for something else when i raid.
    I agree with you on everything but the first tier. I feel more comfortable with Speed of Light. That +70% buff to speed movement is a god-sent since I don't find myself moving that much.

    But it's pretty much a matter of opinion I guess.

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  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    I agree with you on everything but the first tier. I feel more comfortable with Speed of Light. That +70% buff to speed movement is a god-sent since I don't find myself moving that much.

    But it's pretty much a matter of opinion I guess.
    You need to watch all the raid fights and heroics. You are almost always going to be moving around.

    30% run speed for a whole fight - vs - 70% for a short duration every few mins

    That is an easy choice for me, but not everyone i guess.

  19. #79
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Thank you for your detailed description Sadal Good to hear from someone who has done some actual extensive testing rather than most of us who are theorycrafting/5mans!
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  20. #80
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    You would wonder how people manage with only 8% these days.

    I do like pursuit of justice, but sometimes it is worth it to have the on-use, especially if you can re-enchant your boots. It's for that reason some of the higher tanks take engineering, as on-demand can often be better than passive.

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