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  1. #1

    MoP rogue - assa

    Hello there,
    im wondering how is rotation for assa goin to be different ( not only rotations but completly-talents,stats,etc) , i know there is lot of threads about it but id like to have all info about it on one page.


    Last i played was at the beggining of cata and im thinking about goin back in mop, also how is rogue in pvp in mop ? Also ive heard that monk is better version of rogue .... is that true ?

    Thx for response

  2. #2
    Hello there as well.

    Rotation is about the same except you no longer need to start with garrote (since VW procs only from either rupture or garrote), thereby removing the need to begin a fight stealthed. (Yes, Overkill is also gone, to prevent Preparation being mandatory talent choice for Assassination), we still have Cut to the Chase, so its only a matter of keeping up Rupture, not wasting CPs and avoid overlapping Envenom-Buff as good as possible. Btw. the moment you choose Assassination as your spec, Eviscerate is gone and replaced completely by Envenom.

    The new element is Dispatch, a Backstab-ish strike that becomes available once the target falls below 35% health, and can be considered our execute-phase CP-Generator...same as Backstab except its cheaper and has no positional requirement. And to beef up our rotation a little bit (lets face it, above 35% things are pretty boring), there is a 30% chance on every mutilate to proc "Blindside", enabling one free Dispatch (no energy cost) regardless of target health, so thats pretty neat.

    Another thing is that with the merge of Instant and Deadly poison into the new Deadly Poison, and removal of DP Stacks, Assassinations Ramp-Up-Time has been reduced considerably, removing the need for an early Envenom. Further buffing things up, Exp now also gives Spell hit, making it much easier to reach the spellhit cap, and Poison now crits with our melee-crit chance, which will further improve assassinations dmg output.

    Target switching, the biggest issue with Assassination since...ever...has been made easier with versatility and the removal of DP stacks. (To clarify, DP still puts a DoT on the target, but does not stack anymore)

    Stat weights stay about the same, mastery still trumps haste by a small margin, Agi is > all and meleehitcap and expertise cap are of equal importance. Crit and whitehit are our least important stats, however the value of crit goes up a little with the poison changes.

    Assassination always had the best Rogue AoE on 5+mob packs, with the removal of DP stacks, Poison Merge, FoK giving CPs and the new Crimson Tempest AoE finisher, these numbers can only go up.

    So to summarize things, assassination is clearly a specc to be considered in MoP, I for one hope it trumps, or is at least equal to, combat and sub, since I enjoy the playstyle.


    PvP wise, the rogue will have a hard time, as with every new xpac, expect a lot of whining here. The monk is a completely new class, saying its the better version of (enter class here) is plain stupid.
    Last edited by Sorzzara; 2012-08-01 at 08:33 AM.
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  3. #3
    I think the rotation will be:

    1. Keep SND up (but automatically refreshed by Envenom).

    2. Aim FOR 100% Rupture uptime.

    3. Pins at Drow (thanks to him) has tested whether to use four point finishers or 5 points (http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t126898-...8/#post2168183). It appears that using Anticipation is a slight DPS increase.

    4. That being the case, use Blindside as soon as it procs, unless you are going to energy cap.

    Use Mutilate and Blindside to build cps above-35%. Dispatch sub-35%..

    The one thing I cannot figure out, now that they have stopped Garrote proccing Venomous Wounds when there is already a Rupture on the target, is whether it is a DPS increase to open with Garrote or Vanish-Garrote on Vanish cd, and not refresh Rupture while Garrote is up, or whether we should ignore Garrote altogether and simply aim for Rupture.

    The reason I ask is because Rupture ticks every 2 seconds whereas Garrote ticks every 3 seconds. Anyone any thoughts on this?
    Last edited by jtstormrage; 2012-08-01 at 08:39 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Hello there as well.

    Rotation is about the same except you no longer need to start with garrote (since VW procs only from either rupture or garrote), thereby removing the need to begin a fight stealthed. (Yes, Overkill is also gone, to prevent Preparation being mandatory talent choice for Assassination), we still have Cut to the Chase, so its only a matter of keeping up Rupture, not wasting CPs and avoid overlapping Envenom-Buff as good as possible. Btw. the moment you choose Assassination as your spec, Eviscerate is gone and replaced completely by Envenom.

    The new element is Dispatch, a Backstab-ish strike that becomes available once the target falls below 35% health, and can be considered our execute-phase CP-Generator...same as Backstab except its cheaper and has no positional requirement. And to beef up our rotation a little bit (lets face it, above 35% things are pretty boring), there is a 30% chance on every mutilate to proc "Blindside", enabling one free Dispatch (no energy cost) regardless of target health, so thats pretty neat.

    Another thing is that with the merge of Instant and Deadly poison into the new Deadly Poison, and removal of DP Stacks, Assassinations Ramp-Up-Time has been reduced considerably, removing the need for an early Envenom. Further buffing things up, Exp now also gives Spell hit, making it much easier to reach the spellhit cap, and Poison now crits with our melee-crit chance, which will further improve assassinations dmg output.

    Target switching, the biggest issue with Assassination since...ever...has been made easier with versatility and the removal of DP stacks. (To clarify, DP still puts a DoT on the target, but does not stack anymore)

    Stat weights stay about the same, mastery still trumps haste by a small margin, Agi is > all and meleehitcap and expertise cap are of equal importance. Crit and whitehit are our least important stats, however the value of crit goes up a little with the poison changes.

    Assassination always had the best Rogue AoE on 5+mob packs, with the removal of DP stacks, Poison Merge, FoK giving CPs and the new Crimson Tempest AoE finisher, these numbers can only go up.

    So to summarize things, assassination is clearly a specc to be considered in MoP, I for one hope it trumps, or is at least equal to, combat and sub, since I enjoy the playstyle.


    PvP wise, the rogue will have a hard time, as with every new xpac, expect a lot of whining here. The monk is a completely new class, saying its the better version of (enter class here) is plain stupid.
    Pretty accurate except the monk part. Monks do everything rogues do except stealth, only with bigger numbers and better animations. It will be that way until patch 5.1, which will make monks merely overpowered instead of godlike, and then in 5.2 they will be just another class.

    As things stand assassin is the best spec for both interest and damage, now that sub has been ruined. Combat has always been the most boring spec in the game and looks to carry on that fine tradition in MoP.
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  5. #5
    PvE sounds interesting , i have read that assa will use evisc for refreshing SaD so it has changed again ?
    Poisons change is nice but which one we will use as second than ?
    What about talents ? Due fact we dont have Overkill anymore there is no reason take preparation over SS ?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Rotation is about the same except you no longer need to start with garrote (since VW procs only from either rupture or garrote), thereby removing the need to begin a fight stealthed. (Yes, Overkill is also gone, to prevent Preparation being mandatory talent choice for Assassination), we still have Cut to the Chase, so its only a matter of keeping up Rupture, not wasting CPs and avoid overlapping Envenom-Buff as good as possible. Btw. the moment you choose Assassination as your spec, Eviscerate is gone and replaced completely by Envenom.
    You start with garrote to get its VW procs until you get rupture up, much in the same way you start with garrote as sub to get SV out the gates.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 09:16 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    The one thing I cannot figure out, now that they have stopped Garrote proccing Venomous Wounds when there is already a Rupture on the target, is whether it is a DPS increase to open with Garrote or Vanish-Garrote on Vanish cd, and not refresh Rupture while Garrote is up, or whether we should ignore Garrote altogether and simply aim for Rupture.

    The reason I ask is because Rupture ticks every 2 seconds whereas Garrote ticks every 3 seconds. Anyone any thoughts on this?
    Venemous wounds has a procc chance everytime they deal damage so you answered it yourself. Garrote does grant a cp and ruture uses cp's but ruture costs 20 less evergy. I really doubt garrote would be better.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    You start with garrote to get its VW procs until you get rupture up, much in the same way you start with garrote as sub to get SV out the gates.
    As said above I doubt garrote will be better. Rupture only takes 1 global longer to get it going. As for sub, atm at live you don't open with garrote but ambush and rupture afterwards so I don't see why it is going to be different in mop.


    EDIT: I forgot about the 1st tier of the new talent tree though. Depending on what you take this might change it for ass but for sub I'm pretty sure it won't.
    Last edited by jorbo; 2012-08-01 at 09:41 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by jorbo View Post
    As said above I doubt garrote will be better. Rupture only takes 1 global longer to get it going. As for sub, atm at live you don't open with garrote but ambush and rupture afterwards so I doubt this will chance in mop.
    Garrote is a better opener than ambush (remember, garrote procs Find Weakness, too, AND it gives you the +25% damage immediately, rather than waiting a global). Plus garrote is much more damage-per-energy than ambush, and does not have a positional restriction (which means you don't have to spend extra time getting behind the boss to open).

    Ambush is better on live because it costs 40 energy and will almost always crit. In mists an ambush opener will cost 60 energy (it's 40 energy only during shadow dance) and there is no puncturing wounds or improved ambush so the bonus crit chance/damage isn't there any more. Mists ambush does less damage and costs more energy than live.

    If you take Subterfuge as Subtlety, you'd open with Garrote, then Ambush (probably with SnD between them), so that ambush benefits from both FW AND SV.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 09:44 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Garrote is a better opener than ambush (remember, garrote procs Find Weakness, too, AND it gives you the +25% damage immediately, rather than waiting a global). Plus garrote is much more damage-per-energy than ambush, and does not have a positional restriction (which means you don't have to spend extra time getting behind the boss to open). Ambush is better on live because it costs 40 energy and will almost always crit. In mists it's only 40 energy during Dance, otherwise it is 60 energy and doesn't get any extra crit.

    If you take Subterfuge as Subtlety, you'd open with Garrote, then Ambush (probably with SnD between them), so that ambush benefits from both FW AND SV.
    Did i miss anything, they changed that?
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    Did i miss anything, they changed that?
    Several builds ago.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Ambush is better on live because it costs 40 energy and will almost always crit. In mists an ambush opener will cost 60 energy (it's 40 energy only during shadow dance) and there is no puncturing wounds or improved ambush so the bonus crit chance/damage isn't there any more. Mists ambush does less damage and costs more energy than live.

    If you take Subterfuge as Subtlety, you'd open with Garrote, then Ambush (probably with SnD between them), so that ambush benefits from both FW AND SV.
    Ah I didn't know they took away the crit buff for ambush.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Pretty accurate except the monk part. Monks do everything rogues do except stealth, only with bigger numbers and better animations. It will be that way until patch 5.1, which will make monks merely overpowered instead of godlike, and then in 5.2 they will be just another class.

    As things stand assassin is the best spec for both interest and damage, now that sub has been ruined. Combat has always been the most boring spec in the game and looks to carry on that fine tradition in MoP.
    So monks do use daggers, make use of poisons and get to offtank in dmg specc because of their symbiosis buff? (Just 3 examples among many) Please, be serious here, okay? Just because a new class is off balanced (It was the same with the DK) doesn't mean it is the better something...monks playstyle is completely different from that of a rogue. A Mistweaver is different from a Restrodrood, and a Brewmaster is not a Blood DK just because he can use a 2H to tank. Yes, the Windwalker has energy, and yes, the Chi Mechanic somewhat resembles Combo Points. Thats were the similarity ends. By your logic, Mages and Elemental shamans are the same, both are ranged casters w.o. pets who rely on proccs and have little management involved in their Cooldown Use.

    Also, why has Sub been "ruined"? The way I see it, by streamlining its damage rotation with the switch of Energetic Recovery from Recup to SnD, it has finally become a PvE specc that is not a pain in the ass to play. I agree with your assumptions on combat, however, the Shadow Blades CD with its integration into Restless Blades and the change to RvS makes it a little less boring than it was before, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    You start with garrote to get its VW procs until you get rupture up, much in the same way you start with garrote as sub to get SV out the gates.
    Garotte ticks every three seconds, rupture every two. Since VW is not PPM based, what you propose would actually lower your dmg instead of increasing it. You could argue that with Shadow Focus (T1 talent) the Garotte would be free, but I take the extra 4 seconds of Prepot-buff over that any day of the week.
    Last edited by Sorzzara; 2012-08-01 at 09:53 AM.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Garotte ticks every three seconds, rupture every two. Since VW is not PPM based, what you propose would actually lower your dmg instead of increasing it. You could argue that with Shadow Focus (T1 talent) the Garotte would be free, but I take the extra 4 seconds of Prepot-buff over that any day of the week.
    It won't take you 3 seconds to get rupture up unless you're putting up SnD AFTER rupture. That's at least 1 garrote tick until you get rupture up, and that's a chance to get VW up that you otherwise wouldn't have. Tick frequency is not the issue. Opening with garrote affords you to use SnD as your first finisher, instead of delaying SnD to get rupture up asap.

    If you open with mut->rup->mut->SnD->mut->envenom, your 2-3 point rupture may fall off before you can refresh that initial 2-3pt SnD. Garrote buys 18 seconds of flexibility at the pull. That 6-spell opener I just did will take ~20 seconds to complete. That's longer than a 2 or even 3 point rupture. You'll have either SnD or rupture fall off before you can use CttC to get a 5-pt SnD.

    That said, I can't say I know for certain. I certainly haven't tested assassination. Don't like the spec.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 10:16 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    It won't take you 3 seconds to get rupture up unless you're putting up SnD AFTER rupture. That's at least 1 garrote tick until you get rupture up, and that's a chance to get VW up that you otherwise wouldn't have. Tick frequency is not the issue. Opening with garrote affords you to use SnD as your first finisher, instead of delaying SnD to get rupture up asap.

    If you open with mut->rup->mut->SnD->mut->envenom, your 2-3 point rupture may fall off before you can refresh that initial 2-3pt SnD. Garrote buys 18 seconds of flexibility at the pull. That 6-spell opener I just did will take ~20 seconds to complete. That's longer than a 2 or even 3 point rupture. You'll have either SnD or rupture fall off before you can use CttC to get a 5-pt SnD.

    That said, I can't say I know for certain. I certainly haven't tested assassination. Don't like the spec.
    I do see your point...especially since Garrote has no energy cost with Shadow Focus and even a 1CP SnD would not fall off until the first Envenom,...this definitely needs more testing, especially with Prepotting involved.
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  15. #15
    I think you will definitely open with a free Garrote, to start VW going, get SND up and get into your rotation.

    During the right, in my view you will take Shadow Focus and use Garrote because it will be free. Garrote will tick 6 times over 18 seconds. Rupture lasts 24 seconds. Accordingly, if you Garrote and then apply Rupture as soon as it finishes, you will get 9 ticks instead of 12 over the same 24 second period, but you will have spent the 5 cps on another Evenom, and gained 1 cp from free the Garrote. Surely that is more damage.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    So monks do use daggers, make use of poisons and get to offtank in dmg specc because of their symbiosis buff? (Just 3 examples among many) Please, be serious here, okay? Just because a new class is off balanced (It was the same with the DK) doesn't mean it is the better something...monks playstyle is completely different from that of a rogue. A Mistweaver is different from a Restrodrood, and a Brewmaster is not a Blood DK just because he can use a 2H to tank. Yes, the Windwalker has energy, and yes, the Chi Mechanic somewhat resembles Combo Points. Thats were the similarity ends. By your logic, Mages and Elemental shamans are the same, both are ranged casters w.o. pets who rely on proccs and have little management involved in their Cooldown Use.

    Also, why has Sub been "ruined"? The way I see it, by streamlining its damage rotation with the switch of Energetic Recovery from Recup to SnD, it has finally become a PvE specc that is not a pain in the ass to play. I agree with your assumptions on combat, however, the Shadow Blades CD with its integration into Restless Blades and the change to RvS makes it a little less boring than it was before, IMO.


    Garotte ticks every three seconds, rupture every two. Since VW is not PPM based, what you propose would actually lower your dmg instead of increasing it. You could argue that with Shadow Focus (T1 talent) the Garotte would be free, but I take the extra 4 seconds of Prepot-buff over that any day of the week.
    Yeah I agree, monks are pretty much just rogues with a better combo point system and cooler animations.

    And better damage.

    I like the use of irony to point out the difference - daggers and poisons and the possibility of off tanking. Daggers and poisons being the sort of cosmetic difference I briefly mentioned and monks having a whole tanking tree.

    Sub on live is a complicated priority system that requires you to be awake to use it right. On beta it's rather like combat with an annoying bleed mechanic attached. i.e. it's easy and dull.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yeah I agree, monks are pretty much just rogues with a better combo point system and cooler animations.

    And better damage.

    I like the use of irony to point out the difference - daggers and poisons and the possibility of off tanking. Daggers and poisons being the sort of cosmetic difference I briefly mentioned and monks having a whole tanking tree.

    Sub on live is a complicated priority system that requires you to be awake to use it right. On beta it's rather like combat with an annoying bleed mechanic attached. i.e. it's easy and dull.
    By your logic, Warriors and Paladins are the same...they both can tank with 1H and shield and do dmg with big 2H weapons. And dependend on patch status, they also differ in damage.

    Sub on live is a pain in the ass, simple as that. It is still a complicated priority system in beta, but at least we don't have to use stupid recuperate any more. You may call that boring if you like to, I call it streamlined.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    By your logic, Warriors and Paladins are the same...they both can tank with 1H and shield and do dmg with big 2H weapons. And dependend on patch status, they also differ in damage.
    Prot warriors and prot paladins are pretty similar, yeah.
    Sub on live is a pain in the ass, simple as that. It is still a complicated priority system in beta, but at least we don't have to use stupid recuperate any more. You may call that boring if you like to, I call it streamlined.
    Well I said on live it's entertaining, if you can't handle the complexity I have no issue with that. Personally I like having to stay awake to dps with sub.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Prot warriors and prot paladins are pretty similar, yeah.
    Ooookay...I don't know, but last time i checked, Warriors had no holy power, paladins had no shockwave, Warriors had no lay on hands, Paladins had no rend or charge, ... please explain to me your definition of "similar"


    Well I said on live it's entertaining, if you can't handle the complexity I have no issue with that. Personally I like having to stay awake to dps with sub.
    Did I say I can't handle it? No. (I actually play Sub very well, thank you) Did I say that it is a pain in the ass? Yes. Why? Because there is a difference in being entertaining and being ridiculous...having the rogue handle two selfbuffs, 3 Debuffs, 4 Cooldowns (5 If you use a trinket like on Spine, 6 if you are a Nightelf) is by any definition ridiculous. Blizzard thinks so too, so they streamline it by putting ER into SnD.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Ooookay...I don't know, but last time i checked, Warriors had no holy power, paladins had no shockwave, Warriors had no lay on hands, Paladins had no rend or charge, ... please explain to me your definition of "similar"
    Apart from the animations, they play in an extraordinarily similar way when tanking. Shockwave and glyphed holy wrath wind up being the same in most cata encounters. Rend is a dot. Seals provide a dot. Admittedly warriors have no lay on hands,but they do have a heal mechanic. Charge isn't used much when tanking other than on the pull, so that's more or less irrelevent.



    Did I say I can't handle it? No. (I actually play Sub very well, thank you) Did I say that it is a pain in the ass? Yes. Why? Because there is a difference in being entertaining and being ridiculous...having the rogue handle two selfbuffs, 3 Debuffs, 4 Cooldowns (5 If you use a trinket like on Spine, 6 if you are a Nightelf) is by any definition ridiculous. Blizzard thinks so too, so they streamline it by putting ER into SnD.
    You say you can handle it, and then outline why you can't. I gave my opinion as to why I like sub, then you tell me I am wrong. Sorry, but my opinion is the one thing I cannot be wrong about as it's not a claim to objective truth and just an expression of my preferences.

    Given your hostile nature on both threads I've engaged with you and you lack of basic courtesy and actual responses to what has been put to you, I won't be wasting any more time on you. In future you might want to respond properly to others, be less hostile and when asked to provide data, don't cower away from doing so.

    Cheers and goodbye.
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